[AWSAWS]

Worth a watch...

[gangzoom]

I thought I share this extract written by @Ted, the creator of PistonHeads, take one guess at what car he had just driven??

The rest you can read for your selves

“One sedate lap of the paddock at Castle Combe had delivered a thunderbolt. Mind blown, views altered. The gulf between new and old is bigger than I appreciated. A chasm will open up shortly between the silent raiders and the noisy old boys.
Our current rides are automotive steam trains. Whilst beautiful, clever and at the top of their game - it's now the wrong game.”

http://www.blatters.com/mag/the-end-...4369a64a8b464b

[AWSAWS]

If the power transfer was sorted out. i.e. I could power up my car as quick as a petrol (i.e. Transfer a battery pack and drive off) and have the range, I'd change tomorrow.

You can't argue that the power delivery and efficiency is just better. However as with most things, cost is also a factor.

These are relatively early days. We aren't quite there yet.

[mob17]

It may be even quicker to "fill up" than a petrol in the future:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33886180

[mowflow]

While i fully agree that the fuel driven internal combustion engine is a dirty, old inefficient thing I'm still not convinced that electric cars are the future.

As a parent I think less about the cost to me to buy or run the thing but more of the long term effect of the product. More power stations to produce enough power, the potentially short life span of difficult to dispose of products and substances, then there are the by products of production.

Admittedly I don't know even the most basic facts, which is why I sit firmly on the fence and am relatively open minded about electric cars. However, as humans we have a habit of taking a massive shit in the bed that we are leaving for the generations that will follow us purely to benefit ourselves immediately. Hydrogen fuel cells have always sounded like a better solution based on headline fact but as I say, i've not looked beyond that as all these cars are way beyond my financial reach.

And on that last point. To answer AirAndre335i comment about people outside of London. I have never seen a single Tesla up here (Scotland). If I look out of my office window which is situated in a reasonably well heeled part of town I can maybe only see 1 or 2 cars out of about 50 which cost more than £30k. I suspect many areas out with London are the same. For most people £50k is an absolutely obscene amount of money to spend on a car (I do know cheaper electric alternatives are available).

I remain undecided and unconvinced.

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by mowflow

As a parent I think less about the cost to me to buy or run the thing but more of the long term effect of the product. More power stations to produce enough power, the potentially short life span of difficult to dispose of products and substances, then there are the by products of production.

Hydrogen fuel cells have always sounded like a better solution based on headline fact but as I say, i've not looked beyond that as all these cars are way beyond my financial reach.

I remain undecided and unconvinced.

Hydrogen fuel cells cars are possibly the most polluting solution to the internal combustion engine. The production of pure hydrogen is done either via electrolysis which is hugely inefficient or done by burning natural gas. Both require huge amounts of energy.

The biggest LIE sold to the general public is somehow as by magic existing petrol stations can be 'transformed' into hydrogen fuel stations. Hydrogen fuel cell cars store hydrogen at 10,000 PSI, thats the same pressure as what your feel whilst been 4 miles underwater - That's far deeper than what any normal submarine hull is designed to go. So imagine the logistical nightmare with storing/producing/transporting such a fuel.

California has officially started trying out public hydrogen fuel stations, and its not going well. Currently even California (the tree hugger dream land) has been able to construct less than 10 hydrogen fuel stations, 66% of them are currently either off line or have limited function. Bare in mind these things cost around $2 million each to build, and California is about TWICE as big as the UK interms of land area!!

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...ions-dont-work

http://fuelcellfuture.org/index.php/fueling-stations
Battery EVs can in theory be powered purely via renewable - solar/wind electric generation is essentially 'free' once initial investment made.

Batteries themselves are recyclable and most of the its raw materials can be re-used/manufactured.

The technology is has more than convinced me, the price on the other hand as you point out is a clear barrier to entry, and needs to come down. Tesla makes no attempt to hide the fact current buyers are paying a premium to fund the development of cheaper EVs coming down the line.

As with all technology prices will come down, remember the days when a plasma flat panel TV cost £5k+?? Infact it wasn't that long ago (18 months?) when a 55inch OLED panel cost about £5K, now you can pick one up for £1.5K.

The hardest part is actually convincing people to move away from what they are use to and try something different. I haven't got any sproglings (yet), but if I ever do, I hope they will one day ask me 'why is the car making such a racket' the first time see a petrol power car.

[mowflow]

Thanks for taking the time to reply. It'll be interesting to see how all this pans out over the next 10 years or so.

[Kerr]

An electric car still isn't a one car does all car. That's still the biggest issue.

I see Tesla are aiming to bring out a cheaper model in a couple of years.

The target range is 200 miles.

That's less than the current more expensive models.

[AWSAWS]

Originally Posted by mob17

It may be even quicker to "fill up" than a petrol in the future:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33886180

Well this in itself makes me scratch my head?

I can only imagine that wireless charging is incredibly inefficient. Sending most of the magnetic field off into the environment serving no use but to heat up the environment around it. Solution, burn more fuel or capture more energy from elsewhere to make up for it. Wtf?

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by Kerr

An electric car still isn't a one car does all car. That's still the biggest issue.

I see Tesla are aiming to bring out a cheaper model in a couple of years.

The target range is 200 miles.

That's less than the current more expensive models.

Your 100% correct on range limititaions. Would I have got a Leaf if my wife didn't have a conventional hybrid car?? Probably not. But I suspect most people can manage 95% of the time with a car that does 200 miles of range. Don't forget like your phone the idea of Battery EVs is you charge them up overnight. So if needed you can go to bed with the car only having 10 miles of range by the morning it's 200 miles again.

Newer battery technology exist but are currently too expensive to mass produce. Even lithium-ion battery costs are still high, the 85kWh battery in a Tesla is about $18k, so nearly 1/3 the total cost of the car.

I'm sure cars like Lotus will remain for niche buyers who want noise and drama but for most people just using their cars to commute EVs are the way fowards.

The fact we (as a species) could potentially move away from using fossil fules for dially transport and instead switch to a 100% renewable source of power for transport is surely not a bad idea. Apparently many of the analyst in OPEC countries have predicted a decline in global oil consumption already, and some even think the current overproduction of oil is just OPEC wanting to squeeze as much money from their oils wells as possible before demand really falls off....A world not reliant on OPEC oil, that'll change golbal politics just a tad

For many cities in China and India air pollution is a huge and very real problem. Hence both countries are pouring money into renewable sources of electricity generation. The like of Shell/BP aren't stupid either, apparently some of the petrochemical companies are behind the funding projects for a lot of the renewable energy research projects.

It'll be interesting to wait and see how things develop. If you told me 6 months ago when I still had my modified 380bhp 335i I would be driving an electric car and thinking about putting solar panels on the roof I would have laughed you out of the room ...But the more research I do on the topic the more I genuinely believe this is the start of the end for the internal combustion engine, and frankly it's about time.

[mowflow]

What are they like to drive then?

Linear power delivery and no noise aren't really things most petrolheads (we will need a new name) want. A really fast 0-60 gets boring pretty quickly, like first day of ownership quickly and is pretty useless.

[AWSAWS]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

Your 100% correct on range limititaions. Would I have got a Leaf if my wife didn't have a conventional hybrid car?? Probably not. But I suspect most people can manage 95% of the time with a car that does 200 miles of range. Don't forget like your phone the idea of Battery EVs is you charge them up overnight. So if needed you can go to bed with the car only having 10 miles of range by the morning it's 200 miles again.

Newer battery technology exist but are currently too expensive to mass produce. Even lithium-ion battery costs are still high, the 85kWh battery in a Tesla is about $18k, so nearly 1/3 the total cost of the car.

I'm sure cars like Lotus will remain for niche buyers who want noise and drama but for most people just using their cars to commute EVs are the way fowards.

The fact we (as a species) could potentially move away from using fossil fules for dially transport and instead switch to a 100% renewable source of power for transport is surely not a bad idea. Apparently many of the analyst in OPEC countries have predicted a decline in global oil consumption already, and some even think the current overproduction of oil is just OPEC wanting to squeeze as much money from their oils wells as possible before demand really falls off....A world not reliant on OPEC oil, that'll change golbal politics just a tad

For many cities in China and India air pollution is a huge and very real problem. Hence both countries are pouring money into renewable sources of electricity generation. The like of Shell/BP aren't stupid either, apparently some of the petrochemical companies are behind the funding projects for a lot of the renewable energy research projects.

It'll be interesting to wait and see how things develop. If you told me 6 months ago when I still had my modified 380bhp 335i I would be driving an electric car and thinking about putting solar panels on the roof I would have laughed you out of the room ...But the more research I do on the topic the more I genuinely believe this is the start of the end for the internal combustion engine, and frankly it's about time.

China's petrochemical industry is also booming. I've seen it on the news!

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by mowflow

What are they like to drive then?

Linear power delivery and no noise aren't really things most petrolheads (we will need a new name) want. A really fast 0-60 gets boring pretty quickly, like first day of ownership quickly and is pretty useless.

I've not driven a Model S, and I'm trying NOT to drive one till I'm ready to order one (in around 12 month).

If you really think about it, a linear power delivery is essentially exactly what every performance ICE company dreams about...

Why are people putting DSG gear boxes in every thing??
- To speed up gearshifts so that you can have a uninterrupted delivery of power

Why is BMW/Audi looking at electric assisted turbos??
- To get rid of 'lag' between your foot accelerating and the engine responding.

An electric motor does both of these things 100x better than even the most advance petrol engine. Electric road cars don't even need gearboxes, because the motor is almost just as efficient at 1 rpm and 10,000 rpm. The throttle response in my Leaf makes any of previous petrol powered performance cars feel like they belong in museums.

Why does the Golf R/BMW M car's now have 'synthesised' engine noise??
- Because actually unless your 17, living with your parents and think loud noises impress girls, most of the time people don't want a massive loud exhaust to follow them every where they go - Not for a car you would use day to day anyways. So synthesised noise give your ears something to hear, whilst keeping the car half acceptable to everyone else around you.


The most 'engaging' car I've ever owned was a Honda Integra Type R. It delivered drama in spades, an engine that revved to 8krpm, hardly any sound proofing, the best manual gear box i've used, no stereo, no air-con, none of this TC rubbish. 5% of the time is was amazing....But 95% of the time, when your getting trying to from A to B it was S****. Which probably explains why it had 5 owners in 6 years, and I sold after just 10 month of ownership. Some people will always want a third pedal, lots of noise/drama. Horse racing still exist, and ICE cars will always be here, but for the majority it'll be nothing but a hobby for sunny weekends.

The first time you pull away in any EV regardless of brand I promise you it'll be unlike any motoring experience you've had before. The i3 is actually a decent little car, my parent in-laws are seriously thinking of getting one to replace their mini. I'm going to test drive one in a few weeks time, but cannot see it not been nicer than the Leaf.

Tesla do a traveling 'road show' around the country, from what I can tell you can get a 30 min test drive in one without too much hassle....One event was actually about 4 miles from my house, and I was free that day....Had to use all my will power not to go and drive one in real life

http://my.teslamotors.com/en_GB/events

[mowflow]

Linear power delivery is not what petrolheads desire or what tuning companies are trying to achieve. It's not the dream. Electric assisted turbos are an attempt to completely eliminate lag because people want the throttle response that you got with NA engines, not the lag of the old 80s turbo cars. The peaky NA delivery is what nearly every petrolhead I know seeks and as far as I'm led to believe electric motors can produce 100% of their torque at what is effectively 0.0000001rpm. So they are extremely efficient but effectively an on off switch.

I'm curious to know how effectively manufacturers can produce one that replicates the peaky power delivery of something like a Porsche flat six for example. Manufacturers have never quite achieved it with turbos. I'm sure they could with electric cars as it must be easier to restrict the power to react a certain way, the struggle with turbos has always been to develop power when it wasn't there.

[mowflow]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

http://my.teslamotors.com/en_GB/events

By pure coincidence they are just 5 minutes from me until tomorrow. Think i'll go take a look.

[The0pportunist]

The only thing that excites me about the tesla is the pop out handle bars.

[E92Dan]

It was the smooth DSG gearbox in my old Golf GTI that made it so dull to drive. There will need to be some major changes before electric cars have a chance of being a viable option. Not everyone can charge a car overnight outside their house, so for them pure electric is useless. People would also need to get used to ugly wind farms and solar panels covering every field for it to be a green car.

[IanS100]

Driving home last night I finished up behind the beautifully sculptured rear end of what turned out to be a Tesla Model S, it's a beautiful car in print but it's sooo much better in the flesh, sadly I don't think I'll be getting one any time soon

[briers]

Welcome break CEO picking up his tesla next week.

At a meet recently he said he's planning on instilling a SC at everyone on his service stations.

He's also going upmarket on his amenities.

Tesla also rolling out new liquid cooled (cable) superchargers.

Ultimate goal is 5 min charge time which Elon stated recently. I think range will bevome a non issue for everyone once we have all the superchargers and quicker charge times.

Welcome break added chargers to 5 locations in 5 weeks recently.

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by briers

Welcome break CEO picking up his tesla next week.

At a meet recently he said he's planning on instilling a SC at everyone on his service stations.

He's also going upmarket on his amenities.

It's good to be your own boss sometimes!!

I've finally given in and booked a test drive in September. Still haven't figured out a way out of my Leaf contract yet - only solution would be to pay Nissan about £7K to reach the 50% VT, which doesn't make sense as the total cost of running the deal over 2 years is only £4800

Though looking at the way the current deliveries are lagging behind orders, I can just pretend my order is suffering a extra long delay before been built....But I have started to see if I can create a Leaf shaped hole amounts all the rubbish been stored in the garage, so that I can just park it up till it's collection date if it comes down to that.

[E92Dan]

You need a test drive. You might not like it!

[gangzoom]

Test drive booked.....I see some irresponsible spending on a car ahead