[JETmn]

Tony, you just described a choke point, which is exactly what I stated in my post. So you are saying changing the profile of the turbine chamber could not be used to increase the flow of the turbine? You seem to think that you know everything and dismiss anything anyone else has to say. Open your mind, there are other ways to do things besides yours also.

I haven't studied this turbo in depth to say one way or the other, but I am saying it is possible that they found something that you didn't but you flat out say no way. It isn't a magic bullet, but maybe they can get a little more flow out of the stock clipped turbine. Once some of yours get on the dyno and we can see the differences or similarities between them. I doubt there are any major differences and they may be identical, but it is very premature to say that. Data not speculation.

[JETmn]

Also keep in mind that there is a huge difference between a restriction and a true choke point. A choke point cannot be exceeded, where a restriction can be exceeded but it is limiting the efficiency of the system. The turbine housing in this case is probably a large restriction, but not actually a true choke point (think restrictor plate in nascar).

[1cleann55]

Originally Posted by JETmn

Tony, you just described a choke point, which is exactly what I stated in my post. So you are saying changing the profile of the turbine chamber could not be used to increase the flow of the turbine? You seem to think that you know everything and dismiss anything anyone else has to say. Open your mind, there are other ways to do things besides yours also.

I haven't studied this turbo in depth to say one way or the other, but I am saying it is possible that they found something that you didn't but you flat out say no way. It isn't a magic bullet, but maybe they can get a little more flow out of the stock clipped turbine. Once some of yours get on the dyno and we can see the differences or similarities between them. I doubt there are any major differences and they may be identical, but it is very premature to say that. Data not speculation.

I think what he was trying to say with his explanation is even if they found somewhere else to machine or whatever to increase flow how would that extra flow even benefit the turbo if it's still being restricted by the stock turbine how is that "extra air" going to get out basically. Think about that for a second

[1cleann55]

Originally Posted by JETmn

Also keep in mind that there is a huge difference between a restriction and a true choke point. A choke point cannot be exceeded, where a restriction can be exceeded but it is limiting the efficiency of the system. The turbine housing in this case is probably a large restriction, but not actually a true choke point (think restrictor plate in nascar).

Even if its flowing better how much of a increase are we talking about 1psi if that. Guess we'll see once i dyno

[Tony@vargasturbotech]

The stock turbine is the choke point in that system period, not the turbine housing, not the exhaust, same as it was on the N54. Take a our shop car, with the tune and stage 2's right now its making almost 560WHP and 620 WTQ, now remove those Stage2's and install Stage 1's with the stock turbines in place and do not touch the tune, power will fall off dramatically and BP will spike much higher, as the stock turbines become a choke point much lower in the flow level. If you want to argue this feel free, I think the logs / dynos between V1 and V2 show that there is really no difference between the two. We are not going to argue with you about it any longer. Fact is, we are still the only people on earth to take shaft speed, EGT, and BP logs on N54 stock frames, this is how we learned much of what these turbos are doing at different RPM's etc, not by guessing and just applying theory. Mike, let me know when you get it on the dyno. Thanks again!

[JETmn]

Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech

The stock turbine is the choke point in that system period, not the turbine housing, not the exhaust, same as it was on the N54.

Thinking inside the box again. The turbine wheel is only a part of the equation, it is also interacting with the turbine housing. It is possible to increase the flow of the turbine wheel without touching the turbine wheel. You can modify the profile of the turbine housing also. In this case it would decrease efficiency slightly, but increase flow just like clipping. But I don't need to explain fluid dynamics to you...

[JETmn]

Originally Posted by 1cleann55

Even if its flowing better how much of a increase are we talking about 1psi if that. Guess we'll see once i dyno

1psi should be good for ~10whp, I'll take that.

[1cleann55]

Originally Posted by JETmn

Thinking inside the box again. The turbine wheel is only a part of the equation, it is also interacting with the turbine housing. It is possible to increase the flow of the turbine wheel without touching the turbine wheel. You can modify the profile of the turbine housing also. In this case it would decrease efficiency slightly, but increase flow just like clipping. But I don't need to explain fluid dynamics to you...

Brah where did anyone even mention modifying the turbine housing? To my knowledge both stage 1 only ship out as a chra upgrade meaning only the compressor wheel section with the turbine is shipped out nothing more. Stage 1 is nothing more than a bigger compressor wheel and in some cases a clipped turbine. So understand this A STAGE 1 UPGRADE IS A COMPRESSOR WHEEL AND CLIPPED TURBINE UPGRADE there is nothing else you can do to the center compressor housing

[JETmn]

Originally Posted by 1cleann55

Brah where did anyone even mention modifying the turbine housing? To my knowledge both stage 1 only ship out as a chra upgrade meaning only the compressor wheel section with the turbine is shipped out nothing more. Stage 1 is nothing more than a bigger compressor wheel and in some cases a clipped turbine. So understand this A STAGE 1 UPGRADE IS A COMPRESSOR WHEEL AND CLIPPED TURBINE UPGRADE there is nothing else you can do to the center compressor housing

And you can't change the profile by creatively clipping the turbine wheel? Tony is suggesting everyone is doing a normal angular clip on the turbine wheel when he doesn't know if that is actually true. It may very well be true, but that is speculation.

[1cleann55]

Originally Posted by JETmn

And you can't change the profile by creatively clipping the turbine wheel? Tony is suggesting everyone is doing a normal angular clip on the turbine wheel when he doesn't know if that is actually true. It may very well be true, but that is speculation.

Creatively cutting the turbine lol come on now you're just being difficult.. cut the turbine too little it'll have no effect cut it to much and you'll have serious lag and basically ruin the turbo system. Theres no getting creative with clipping a turbine either you do it right the one way or you mess it up playing mad scientist.

[JETmn]

Originally Posted by 1cleann55

Creatively cutting the turbine lol come on now you're just being difficult.. cut the turbine too little it'll have no effect cut it to much and you'll have serious lag and basically ruin the turbo system. Theres no getting creative with clipping a turbine either you do it right the one way or you mess it up playing mad scientist.

Sorry man but that is totally incorrect. Which portion of the turbine wheel are you clipping? Inducer? Exducer? The profile in between? What if you are clipping the inducer and the transition profile is actually the larger restriction?

[1cleann55]

Dem googling skills though lol. I can tell you one thing a co worker of mine has the pure stage 1 and the "inducer" is the same only thing that seems to be shaved is the exducer which is a common thing done by all company who clip turbines.

[Tony@vargasturbotech]

Just let him do his thing. Clipping turbine wheels is a very very tricky thing to do properly. BW spends millions of dollars on wheel design, profile design, flow efficiency etc. Clipping the exducer, as what is commonly known as clipping, should only be done to a point, once you go further you upset the balance of flow and profile design and actually make the wheel less efficient, doing more harm than good. This person is a self proclaimed expert which is ok with us, we will continue to use our real world knowledge, and testing on various platforms to dictate how we approach our upgrades. We never claim to know everything, we are learning every day, but doing a lot of testing while taking a lot of data from that testing is invaluable in expanding our knowledge. We always find it entertaining when a person on the internet wants to explain turbocharger theory to people who have been working in the field for years. Best bet Mike, just ignore his comments, let him jump back over into the other thread, and chime in there. This thread will be about your experience and results. Thanks again for the quick install and testing.

[Pure Turbos]

Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech

This is indeed a fact, that other shops want to use smoke and mirrors to lead people to believe they are adding "special" things to their stage 1 turbos to give them an advantage just isn't the case, that stock turbine is going to flow what it is going to flow, and then they party is over.

Tony, are you referring to PURE? I hope not.

Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech

Hopefully this will put the myths to bed of "special" tricks being done to get more out of a stage 1, when you reach the flow limit of the stock turbine, it has been reached, game over.

Again, I hope you're not referring to PURE. We don't create myths of special tricks. Our version 2 is different than the first Stage 1 we built. I feel we all should stick to talking about our own products. I imagine it's probably best to let customers decide which turbo they prefer, and what information they believe. Looking forward to seeing your Stg1 results. Thank you.

[Tony@vargasturbotech]

Originally Posted by Pure Turbos

Tony, are you referring to PURE? I hope not.



Again, I hope you're not referring to PURE. We don't create myths of special tricks. Our version 2 is different than the first Stage 1 we built. I feel we all should stick to talking about our own products. I imagine it's probably best to let customers decide which turbo they prefer, and what information they believe. Looking forward to seeing your Stg1 results. Thank you.

Hey guys not sure why you are in a VTT based thread, but kindly remove yourself like you asked me to to last time I posted in one of yours. If I was referring to you guys I would call you out by name, there is much smoke and mirrors surrounding many stage 1 upgrades in the turbocharger industry. In reality any stage 1 upgrade is a stock CHRA with a bigger compressor wheel, clipped turbine, and possibly a few upgraded thrust parts as with our Stage 1 N54 turbos. As far as comparisons between the two products, we have made none, its the people looking to buy the products that make the comparisons to help them decide, which is normal. Cheers

[iuhutch]

Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech

Hey guys not sure why you are in a VTT based thread, but kindly remove yourself like you asked me to to last time I posted in one of yours. If I was referring to you guys I would call you out by name, there is much smoke and mirrors surrounding many stage 1 upgrades in the turbocharger industry. In reality any stage 1 upgrade is a stock CHRA with a bigger compressor wheel, clipped turbine, and possibly a few upgraded thrust parts as with our Stage 1 N54 turbos. As far as comparisons between the two products, we have made none, its the people looking to buy the products that make the comparisons to help them decide, which is normal. Cheers

So who is the other competitor playing with smoking mirrors? Funny how you get defensive when the other vendor chimes in to only say that they did to do a version revision and that they are excited to see what your stg1 can do. Also, you chimed in on their thread, what gives?
You always say "thanks for the feedback" are you really doing anything with this feedback though? doesnt appear so.

OP please post your data results

[Tony@vargasturbotech]

Originally Posted by iuhutch

So who is the other competitor playing with smoking mirrors? Funny how you get defensive when the other vendor chimes in to only say that they did to do a version revision and that they are excited to see what your stg1 can do.

I'll be removing you from fb too, your posts are there are just as ignorant as they are here. Thanks for the feedback.

Sounds like a plan, thank you for the feedback.

OP, post your results when you are ready, and have done your testing, to your satisfaction. Do not let any of these people speaking nothing but negative things influence you in any way. We have both already seen the logs, we already know what the results are, when you are happy with your tuning, go ahead and release the results.

[JETmn]

Originally Posted by 1cleann55

Dem googling skills though lol. I can tell you one thing a co worker of mine has the pure stage 1 and the "inducer" is the same only thing that seems to be shaved is the exducer which is a common thing done by all company who clip turbines.

I didn't google any of that, if you want to discuss turbocharger dynamics I will PM you my phone number. I don't pretend to come in here and know everything, but Tony claims to know what is going on in the other Stage 1 turbo. I have just giving other scenarios that may be taking place. I don't know and Tony doesn't know. He is claiming he knows, and that is what irks me.

Tony - if you weren't talking about PURE, then who was it since they are the only other company making a stage 1 turbo? You stated many times a stage 1 N55 wasn't even worth doing and would not get the gains that they have seen, yet now you make one. There is a measurable difference between their version 1 and version 2, so obviously they have figured something out.

[PeterPure]

Hi guys, i agree lets stick to the results. I for instance am eager to see how this one performs as well. I know what pure does on my car and am happy with it.

1cleann55 has bought the vargas st1 and i hope his results are good too. I find it good to have real world data available to the community.

We all know how Tony handles forum posts, but this thread is about 1cleann55 new turbo upgrade. I love to hear how this one does even though i will never buy it.

[iuhutch]

No one has said a negative word about the OP, his upgrade, experience or the product. All negative comments really come back to VTT and the way you guys choose to respond to other 'non-customers'. If you don't have my money, then you don't care about what I have to say mentality.

I have full faith in your products and appreciate what you do for the community but i will never do business with you due to your antics. I've supported you in the past and then just to be let down by your own smoking mirrors. Maybe not smoking mirrors on the data about your products but you definitely have some hidden agenda's when it comes to SLA agreements/commitments, responding to sarcastically to potential customers / the community and have a webpage that is so outdated it makes me puke when i look at it.

[Tony@vargasturbotech]

Originally Posted by JETmn

I didn't google any of that, if you want to discuss turbocharger dynamics I will PM you my phone number. I don't pretend to come in here and know everything, but Tony claims to know what is going on in the other Stage 1 turbo. I have just giving other scenarios that may be taking place. I don't know and Tony doesn't know. He is claiming he knows, and that is what irks me.

Tony - if you weren't talking about PURE, then who was it since they are the only other company making a stage 1 turbo? You stated many times a stage 1 N55 wasn't even worth doing and would not get the gains that they have seen, yet now you make one. There is a measurable difference between their version 1 and version 2, so obviously they have figured something out.

The aftermarket turbocharger world is vast, and the N55 is the tiniest smallest island on that world. Stage turbos 1 for many platforms are always touted as substantial upgrades when they are usually not, we have stated from the beginning what we feel an N55 stage 1 upgrade is good for, 40-60WHP gain for about 1500RPM up top, no BS, no fluffing. This is why we provided a real stage 2 upgrade to start with, instead of going the easy route and performing one machining process and installing a bigger compressor wheel. N55 cores are limited, we did not want to waste cores building all stage 1's, we prefer to offer people a chance to really make some power. With that said, we are a business as any other business is, if people are asking for a product we will build it. I will say it one more time, if you want to discuss the other options, please do so in the other thread, we honestly are not concerned about what they are doing. We have our plates so full as it is. We unsubscribed from all other threads a long time ago, since this is our thread we get notices for it, hence why we are trying to keep it on track, but it seems no one wants to keep it on track. If you do not like us, and do not want to buy anything from us, that is you choice, thanks for stopping by. In the meantime we will continue to break records on every platform we offer upgrades for, and watch the competition catch up. Have a good weekend guys

[1cleann55]

He's right about the 1500rpm gain up top. I use to shift at 5k now im shifting at 6k not much of a gain if you ask me. Its a neat upgrade dont get me wrong my reason for buying it is because im waiting on a a development of a big single kit for the n55 either from FFtec or ptf. Although the gains arent much trust me your but dyno feels the gain. The car just straight out pulls like a mofo lol