[335inDe]

Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF

Nice review OP, I don't mean to derail your post but I have to chime in on some of these remarks since they involve our brand.

While we do share a manufacturer or two with some of the suppliers on this forum I can definitely tell you the VRSF, AMS and ETS intercooler cores are NOT sourced from the same manufacturer. Before you assume we're using a low grade core because of our lower pricing, please keep in mind we have over a dozen 700whp+ N54's running our 7" intercooler right now along with the world record holder @ 860whp. The results speak for themselves

With that said we have a new line of race intercoolers about to be released to accommodate the ever growing 600whp+ market and we can expect to have some test results up in the next few weeks. These intercoolers will be the largest available offerings and they will also feature the highest density fin packs available, all while retaining a reasonable price point.



Cast end tanks and high density fin pack for $280? The cast end tank molds alone are $2000 for an intercooler that size, not sure how you're getting out of it for only $280.

Not sure, same reason I was quoted $90 for VRSF intercooler. You don't for one second think that if you outsource something in China they don't share/sell/copy with other factories I hope? As far as I know there is no patent or copyright on this stuff?

[335inDe]

Originally Posted by 335inDe

Not sure, same reason I was quoted $90 for VRSF intercooler. You don't for one second think that if you outsource something in China they don't share/sell/copy with other factories I hope? As far as I know there is no patent or copyright on this stuff?

I can promise there isn't anything sold on here from any brand or any vendor that is outsourced in China, you cant within a matter of minutes get a "Sample" shipped here for a fraction of the retail price.

[335inDe]

Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF

Do me a favor and send me their info so I can negotiate my prices, that's significantly lower than what we pay when we order 400-500 at a time.

If you've found a Chinese supplier who's selling an AMS/Cobb/ETS intercooler, it doesn't mean you've located the original source that said companies order from, it just means these Chinese manufacturers have copied the product at one time or another. Those iPhone rip offs from China obviously aren't made at the same factory Apple uses, right?

An intercooler core is more than two end tanks welded to a core. The intercooler core's fin pitch/density/style/dimensions all play a part in making a core perform the way it does and you need the correct combination per application both internally and externally in order to get an intercooler that flows as well as it cools. That knock off iPhone might look like the real thing until you turn it on and you realize it's running a 10 year old version of Android. It will look like the real thing but it certainly won't perform like it.

Now that we've covered design you have to blindly assume this "replica" intercooler's core and end tanks are going to hold up to 15-35 psi of constant abuse, thousands of high temperature heat cycles along with personal introduction to countless pieces of random road debris. The manufacturing process will determine if this intercooler is going to last 5 years or 5 days. Most cheap intercoolers from overseas that have been copied and end up getting sold on ebay for a fraction of the price don't undergo any quality control measures such as pressure testing due to the added time/expense.

Most of these suppliers who offer a product that looks the same at a fraction of the price can be compared to the iPhone knock off vendors out there. Does the product look the same? Sure. Does it perform the same? Certainly not.

Well I added a 7" staggered fin similar to VRSF 7" and it's costing $230 to test it.. I will definitely run as many tests as need to put the china vs China to rest..

[MNick]

Originally Posted by 335inDe

I will ask him about ER, But according my source they make make VRSF, AMS, made the prototype for ETS but they took it and found a cheaper plant, and of course Wagner. He states VRSF is worst build cheapest core, AMS mid grade and Wagner best of them. In the end none had what I wanted so he let me make my own Helix type IC. Staggered fins, 7" stepped, Wagner style end tanks..guess how much? $280 shipped for custom design single IC..

Do you have any pictures of this IC?

[YYCn54xi]

Originally Posted by 335inDe

Well I added a 7" staggered fin similar to VRSF 7" and it's costing $230 to test it.. I will definitely run as many tests as need to put the china vs China to rest..

good luck with that....I'll gladly pay someone else to test, import, stock, market, and re-sell a proven line of products.....and back it with a no hassle warranty.

Let us know your findings and your "all-in" costs.

[Jozy]

Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF

Nice review OP, I don't mean to derail your post but I have to chime in on some of these remarks since they involve our brand.

While we do share a manufacturer or two with some of the suppliers on this forum I can definitely tell you the VRSF, AMS and ETS intercooler cores are NOT sourced from the same manufacturer. Before you assume we're using a low grade core because of our lower pricing, please keep in mind we have over a dozen 700whp+ N54's running our 7" intercooler right now along with the world record holder @ 860whp. The results speak for themselves

With that said we have a new line of race intercoolers about to be released to accommodate the ever growing 600whp+ market and we can expect to have some test results up in the next few weeks. These intercoolers will be the largest available offerings and they will also feature the highest density fin packs available, all while retaining a reasonable price point.



Cast end tanks and high density fin pack for $280? The cast end tank molds alone are $2000 for an intercooler that size, not sure how you're getting out of it for only $280.

Tiago you have new coolers coming up? Interested...

[Ravenseal]

Originally Posted by Tiago@VRSF

I'll post more info along with results in a couple weeks once we get our samples in, I've already taken too much space in this thread.

Nonsense, thanks for chiming in. I'm always happy to see constructive communication from vendors and manufacturers. I'd trust any well established brand over chinese white box units. I can't wait to install my VRSF downpipes

[mike@x-ph.com]

335inDe Thank you for the screenshot that you emailed.
I asked for it so i know all the details before replying

Unfortunately, you do not have the original manufacturer. What you have is a company that replicates or tried to replicate the design of popular intercoolers and sell them for less. There are a ton of these companies around in china.

1 thing for sure is the 4 companies you mentioned (AMS,ETS,Wagner and VRSF) do not share the same manufacturer

the second clue is that if this is the actual manufacturer, he would never ever ever ever tell you which companies he works with. Try any reputable manufacturer in China and you will notice they never disclose their partners. Why would a manufacturer risk losing his contract with international companies just to sell a stranger 1 intercooler?

[mike@x-ph.com]

Couple pics from the Wagner facility

[mike@x-ph.com]

335inDe Here is another company that claims the same thing ... They even copied Wagner boxes and bar codes
A regular person will easily think these are genuine Wagner products ... Experienced dealers and Wagner engineers will know they are replicas

Small box details dont match and some details on the intercooler is off by just a bit

[mike@x-ph.com]

More pics






Three buildings ... They must be doing something other than stocking overseas intercoolers

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by 335inDe

As far as I know there is no patent or copyright on this stuff?

All Wagner Tuning designs are patented

[Lupo911]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

All Wagner Tuning designs are patented

https://register.dpma.de/DPMAregiste...402013004958.4

[335inDe]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

335inDe Thank you for the screenshot that you emailed.
I asked for it so i know all the details before replying

Unfortunately, you do not have the original manufacturer. What you have is a company that replicates or tried to replicate the design of popular intercoolers and sell them for less. There are a ton of these companies around in china.

1 thing for sure is the 4 companies you mentioned (AMS,ETS,Wagner and VRSF) do not share the same manufacturer

the second clue is that if this is the actual manufacturer, he would never ever ever ever tell you which companies he works with. Try any reputable manufacturer in China and you will notice they never disclose their partners. Why would a manufacturer risk losing his contract with international companies just to sell a stranger 1 intercooler?

From the pictures it looks like wagner just welds the endtanks on after they get cores? If I am wrong I will be the first to admit it. There is a two week lead time on the one I asked to be made.Once it is here I will send pictures of the quality and before and after logs. I will try to find export records that's the truth behind it all.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by 335inDe

I will ask him about ER, But according my source they make make VRSF, AMS, made the prototype for ETS but they took it and found a cheaper plant, and of course Wagner. He states VRSF is worst build cheapest core, AMS mid grade and Wagner best of them. In the end none had what I wanted so he let me make my own Helix type IC. Staggered fins, 7" stepped, Wagner style end tanks..guess how much? $280 shipped for custom design single IC..

Your information whether fabricated or correct is moot.

You realizes businesses don't sell products at break even?

Otherwise whats the point in being in business?

Do you scrutinize every other purchase you make by finding out the manufacturer and cost?

Surely you have more time on your hands. LOL

By the way, I'm leaning more on the side of fabricated but the posts were entertaining.

[335inDe]

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

Your information whether fabricated or correct is moot.

You realizes businesses don't sell products at break even?

Otherwise whats the point in being in business?

Do you scrutinize every other purchase you make by finding out the manufacturer and cost?

Surely you have more time on your hands. LOL

By the way, I'm leaning more on the side of fabricated but the posts were entertaining.

Well the point of the matter is someone asked if a wagner intercooler is worth $600. IMO and only my opinion some of the name brand products on this platform are grossly misrepresented as being higher quality than others. In a sense yes some are made a little better than others. But the real question is a Wagner or any brand worth double the price of a VRFS if they are all sourced from China? That's the point. You are paying for a name, the core may be a little better but not $300 better. In the end everyone is entitled to buy what they want but a company should be held liable for how they portray themselves. Even the vendors here think Wagner is make in Germany, that's sad. I found Wagners Sept 2015 export record. Ill let you guess where the intercoolers were shipped from...

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by 335inDe

Well the point of the matter is someone asked if a wagner intercooler is worth $600. IMO and only my opinion some of the name brand products on this platform are grossly misrepresented as being higher quality than others. In a sense yes some are made a little better than others. But the real question is a Wagner or any brand worth double the price of a VRFS if they are all sourced from China? That's the point. You are paying for a name, the core may be a little better but not $300 better. In the end everyone is entitled to buy what they want but a company should be held liable for how they portray themselves. Even the vendors here think Wagner is make in Germany, that's sad. I found Wagners Sept 2015 export record. Ill let you guess where the intercoolers were shipped from...

Opinions are not worth talking about here.

Talk facts if you want to make points.

You claim to have a lot of information yet you've posted no proof and most of the proof is moot.

The products perform. If you want to compare them to some Chinese replica knock off, get out there and do so and come back with facts and hard data.

So far you've made no factual points, just vaporware and misrepresentation of information from a unknown Chinese source that replicates name brands at low quality and passes them off as genuine.

Lets evaluate the facts and truth here 1 by 1.

1) Your source does not make genuine products
2) Your source does not make the products to the same quality as the genuine offerings
3) Not all manufacutrers are created equal
4) Quality cores can be made in China (from the right manufacutrer)
5) Many companies have their products outsourced in China but fabrication is completed in their home country
6) Many companies of products you use today are made in China by high quality manufacturers
7) Most of the points you've made if not all have not have been backed up with any hard data
8) most of the points you've made if not all haven't changed the fact that truth is in the pudding. Compose yourself some hard data comparison and make your points.
9) There is nothing wrong with companies outsourcing their products overseas to increase their margin
10) There is nothing wrong with companies making money and making profits
11) If you really have beef with companies making money you should look into the Jewlery industry where the mark up is 4000% or MORE! (To add to that list, Designer handbags, sunglasses, make up and bottled water).

I don't care if Mickey Mouse himself is making the product, does it perform?

You'll need to do your own homework and testing. If you think a sub $200 ebay intercooler re-branded from XYZ company is going to outperform a Genuine Wagner EVO II Competition intercooler, you've been severely mislead.

I hope you get or found whatever you are looking for but for everyone else here I'm sure would rather see actual hard data and facts not only on the vehicles but examples that are attainable and not vaporware from an unstrusted Chinese source notorious for knocking off quality brands or a random member that seems to have some alternative agenda for trying to put honest companies on blast.

[335inDe]

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

Opinions are not worth talking about here.

Talk facts if you want to make points.

You claim to have a lot of information yet you've posted no proof and most of the proof is moot.

The products perform. If you want to compare them to some Chinese replica knock off, get out there and do so and come back with facts and hard data.

So far you've made no factual points, just vaporware and misrepresentation of information from a unknown Chinese source that replicates name brands at low quality and passes them off as genuine.

Lets evaluate the facts and truth here 1 by 1.

1) Your source does not make genuine products
2) Your source does not make the products to the same quality as the genuine offerings
3) Not all manufacutrers are created equal
4) Quality cores can be made in China (from the right manufacutrer)
5) Many companies have their products outsourced in China but fabrication is completed in their home country
6) Many companies of products you use today are made in China by high quality manufacturers
7) Most of the points you've made if not all have no have been backed up with any hard data
8) most of the points you've made if not all haven't changed the fact that truth is in the pudding. Compose yourself some hard data comparison and make your points.
9) There is nothing wrong with companies outsourcing their products overseas to increase their margin
10) There is nothing wrong with companies making money and making profits
11) If you really have beef with companies making money you should look into the Jewlery industry where the mark up is 4000% or MORE!

I don't care if Mickey Mouse himself is making the product, does it perform?

You'll need to do your own homework and testing. If you think a sub $200 ebay intercooler re-branded from XYZ company is going to outperform a Genuine Wagner EVO II Competition intercooler, you've been severely mislead.

I hope you get or found whatever you are looking for but for everyone else here, I'm sure we'd rather see actual hard data and facts not only the vehicles but examples that are attainable and not vaporware from an unstrusted Chinese source notorious for knocking off quality brands.

What is not a fact?

Does Wagner claim to be made in Germany? Yes
Is Wagner made in Germany? No

Seems factual to me

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by 335inDe

What is not a fact?

Does Wagner claim to be made in Germany? Yes
Is Wagner made in Germany? No

Seems factual to me

Seems? Where is your proof? You've offered nothing so far but your only little words from unknown sources.

You've skated around a bunch of valid points in my last remark and touched on none of them and this is the best you come up with as a rebuttal?

We've already disproved this with pictures of their facility in Germany.

Wagner themselves is currently building another manufacturing facility in Germany because they can't keep up with the demand.

Come back with proof and respond to my other remarks. This is not my first rodeo on the internet or forums with people like yourself.

As I said before, I don't care where it's made, does it perform? YES!

Why does every other company want to replicate Wagner products if they are so bad?

Why are there so many knock offs of Wagner products if they are so bad?

Why does Wagner produce products for many private label companies and race car teams if they are so bad?

What's your real purpose here?

[335inDe]

Wow you just keep pushing trying to defend Wagner. You must sell them? If so id be pissed to that I sell a product to loyal enthusiasts misrepresented. Does Wagner work and perform has never been the question. The question are they worth almost double say a VRSF? I said my personal opinion is no.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by 335inDe

Wow you just keep pushing trying to defend Wagner. You must sell them? If so id be pissed to that I sell a product to loyal enthusiasts misrepresented. Does Wagner work and perform has never been the question. The question are they worth almost double say a VRSF? I said my personal opinion is no.

That's your opinion but opinions don't work well when facts show the actual performance differences between A and B.

Since you've compared neither personally nor provided any data your opinion on the matter really has no merit.

As I keep saying, stick with facts and take out your opinion (AKA alternative agenda).

We are not upset at all about offering a proven quality product that performs.

By the way, the "data" you provided shows nothing. There aren't many companies today that don't outsource at least some aspect of materials from China.

Likely the same device your using to reply with was made in China...

[Rory]

FWIW the mishimoto I bought I think is well made and the welds etc look excellent quality. It was designed in delaware in big letters on the box, and in tiny print on the bottom made in china lol.

It doesn't mean you can't get good quality items made in china.