[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

We didn't lie, Steve didn't run the same speed as us (and I love Steve so no hate there), we'll be at NFZ next week come run us. Car will be the same as last time except we swapped to a M3 diff (3.15) since Tony broke the 3.08 trying to get that 3700+ lb pig in the 10's at the quarter mile. Bring as many N54's as you want, we're happy to run them all.

[pits200]

Any chance people start using a vbox at these events. Would definitely help with consistency.

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Originally Posted by pits200

Any chance people start using a vbox at these events. Would definitely help with consistency.

We just got one that we've been starting to fool around with. Good tool for sure.

[TrollToll]

Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech

We just got one that we've been starting to fool around with. Good tool for sure.

Sometimes it's fun to fool around with your tool.

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Finished up the customers 135, this is 100% stock motor, Stage 3 fuel pump, PI, JB4, GC turbos, VTT inlets, 100% E85. BMS Back end flash with a few tweaks for fuel as we do not like the BMS fuel tables. Keep in mind this is at 28 psi, not 32+ psi you are seeing other set ups make similar power at. We wanted to keep things usable for the customer. The dip at the top is the tranny shifting itself, as a stock AT is not very happy being told to make this kind of Power, and TQ, so we left it there. No special tuning, not anything. Bolted the turbos on, and ran it up a bunch of times to make sure things were consistent before sending it back to the customer.

As you can see the GC's spool the same as stock turbos, and make 264WHP more, 160WTQ more at peak, but the power curve is what says it all. All the power is 100% usable for the entire rev range just about. We also did a pull on map 7 17-18 psi ad the customer wanted a DD map, car makes a dead smooth 500/500 basically. This will be one happy customer!

Last but not least, just for fun, we threw our new Nizpro Equipped N54 AT car on the dyno with GC lites. Left the car at 24 psi flat. I overlaid it with the stock turbo baseline from the 135. Safe to say GC lites not only out spool everything available, they leave stock turbos in the dust as far as spool as well...

[Tiago@VRSF]

Three good looking dynos right there. Good job guys.

[Pure Turbos]

Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech

Finished up the customers 135, this is 100% stock motor, Stage 3 fuel pump, PI, JB4, GC turbos, VTT inlets, 100% E85. BMS Back end flash with a few tweaks for fuel as we do not like the BMS fuel tables. Keep in mind this is at 28 psi, not 32+ psi you are seeing other set ups make similar power at. We wanted to keep things usable for the customer. The dip at the top is the tranny shifting itself, as a stock AT is not very happy being told to make this kind of Power, and TQ, so we left it there. No special tuning, not anything. Bolted the turbos on, and ran it up a bunch of times to make sure things were consistent before sending it back to the customer.

As you can see the GC's spool the same as stock turbos, and make 264WHP more, 160WTQ more at peak, but the power curve is what says it all. All the power is 100% usable for the entire rev range just about. We also did a pull on map 7 17-18 psi ad the customer wanted a DD map, car makes a dead smooth 500/500 basically. This will be one happy customer!

Last but not least, just for fun, we threw our new Nizpro Equipped N54 AT car on the dyno with GC lites. Left the car at 24 psi flat. I overlaid it with the stock turbo baseline from the 135. Safe to say GC lites not only out spool everything available, they leave stock turbos in the dust as far as spool as well...

Hi Chris and e90post,

Thanks for posting that. This will be a somewhat apples to apples comparable customer car dyno sheet.
Since dyno overlays seem to be trendy lately, I gave it a shot. (sorry for the stretched out graph, it was the only way to overlay clean)





Looking back at our customer's JB4 log (now that I'm better educated on PWM and spool tuning), I can see there are
big spool improvements to be made with some simple duty bias tuning in the JB4. If we kept PWM up from 2800 to 4400rpm it
would spool a lot quicker:





This customer's PURE Stg2 setup was 100% stock motor, AT trans, 28psi, BMS backend flash with no tweaks, E50+meth,
Stg1 LPFP, TFT inlets, and FBO of course. Note it did still have stock size 1.81" inlet snouts. We recently upgraded him to
our 2" inlet snouts, but it obviously is not required for big power.


Things to note in the overlay:

-It seems they spool very similar. The PURE Stg2's spool slightly better until around 3400rpm in this comparison. But there's
many variables that can affect this. So I'll chalk it up to them spooling virtually the same.
-The VT turbos seem to nose dive after 6100rpm. But maybe it's a shift according to Chris? Doesn't make sense to me.
Why would it shift at 6100rpm, and why does the rpm keep climbing as power drops? Doesn't look like a shift, but
maybe I'm wrong.

When X axis is RPM like all the above, a shift looks like this:



Thanks for looking,
-PURE

[pits200]

Originally Posted by Pure Turbos

Hi Chris and e90post,

Thanks for posting that. This will be a somewhat apples to apples comparable customer car dyno sheet.
Since dyno overlays seem to be trendy lately, I gave it a shot. (sorry for the stretched out graph, it was the only way to overlay clean)

Attachment 1518708



Looking back at our customer's JB4 log (now that I'm better educated on PWM and spool tuning), I can see there are
big spool improvements to be made with some simple duty bias tuning in the JB4. If we kept PWM up from 2800 to 4400rpm it
would spool a lot quicker:



Attachment 1518725



This customer's PURE Stg2 setup was 100% stock motor, AT trans, 28psi, BMS backend flash with no tweaks, E50+meth,
Stg1 LPFP, TFT inlets, and FBO of course. Note it did still have stock size 1.81" inlet snouts. We recently upgraded him to
our 2" inlet snouts, but it obviously is not required for big power.


Things to note in the overlay:

-It seems they spool very similar. The PURE Stg2's spool slightly better until around 3400rpm in this comparison. But there's
many variables that can affect this. So I'll chalk it up to them spooling virtually the same.
-The VT turbos seem to nose dive after 6100rpm. But maybe it's a shift according to Chris? Doesn't make sense to me.
Why would it shift at 6100rpm, and why does the rpm keep climbing as power drops? Doesn't look like a shift, but
maybe I'm wrong.

When X axis is RPM like all the above, a shift looks like this:

Attachment 1518714

Thanks for looking,
-PURE

You're comparison isn't valid.

You're comparing gcs to stage 2s. The advantage of the GCs is when you push the limit and not limit them due to other constraints such as the AT. They never said the spool of the GCs was the fastest spooling ever just that it has great low end spool for their size and great high end boost, the best of both worlds. Your stage 2s would never be able to hit the top end of the gcs when limits like transmission and fuel dont come into play and only barely outspool. If you want more of and apples to apples in terms of spool, you should be overlaying your stage 2s with the gc lites as the top end of those two is more similar. Also, am I missing where you list wdc, how much is left in those stage 2s and how long will they last at that boost if maxed.

Not sure why company's all around think playing games with numbers is going to fool the consumer. I guess who am I kidding it probably works most of the time.

[Pure Turbos]

Originally Posted by pits200

You're comparison isn't valid.

You're comparing gcs to stage 2s. The advantage of the GCs is when you push the limit and not limit them due to other constraints such as the AT. They never said the spool of the GCs was the fastest spooling ever just that it has great low end spool for their size and great high end boost, the best of both worlds. Your stage 2s would never be able to hit the top end of the gcs when limits like transmission and fuel dont come into play and only barely outspool. If you want more of and apples to apples in terms of spool, you should be overlaying your stage 2s with the gc lites as the top end of those two is more similar. Also, am I missing where you list wdc, how much is left in those stage 2s and how long will they last at that boost if maxed.

Not sure why company's all around think playing games with numbers is going to fool the consumer. I guess who am I kidding it probably works most of the time.

Draw whatever conclusion you will from the data posted. It's only data for your information, no claims made.

In response to your post:
-It's absolutely valid. They overlayed PURE Stg2 in post #21. Maybe you didn't see that.
-The advantages you speak of are advertised advantages. So that's why we are asking for customer car results. Which they posted. So the overlayed graph is both customer cars, both AT trans, same boost, etc. So it's a great comparison.
-This is the only dynojet sheet we have seen from a GC customer car.
-This isn't specifically a spool comparison, it's also a hp/tq comparison of a comparable car.
-Look at the log, WG PWM is clearly shown.

Your quote: "Not sure why company's all around think playing games with numbers is going to fool the consumer. I guess who am I kidding it probably works most of the time."

Exactly, which is why we want to see true customer car results like the ones shown above.

Does it not make you at least curious?

-VT shop car, supposedly ~760whp @ 29.5psi IIRC
-Customer car, ~660whp @ 28psi

Where does the 100whp come from?

I normally don't overlay graphs. In fact, that's the first we have ever done. It's simply a reply to their overlay in post #21. I just find it strange that once we see the turbos on an actual customer car, they are good for 660whp level, with an almost identical curve as PURE Stg2. If you don't find that interesting, then sorry for the data.

[pits200]

I guess the easy question is, do you have a 750whp dyno for the stage 2s?

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Pits nailed it; it's about flow capability. The GC's will make more horsepower than any other twin offering on the market by a huge margin. I'm not directly familiar with your S2 offering and don't want to misspeak about it, but at the 660-680 whp the GC's are not close to being maxed -at all. That's a conservative range, tons left in them.

Since the GC's flow so much more, we do expect they to take a spool hit compared to the GC lites -you know how that game goes with flow versus spool -it's always a tradeoff unless you're improving a ridiculous restriction (the GC family does -at the manifold). The lites are a better comparison to most current competitor offerings. We got 650 whp out of them on a tired motor, and haven't re-dyno'd them yet on a motor that doesn't have 20% leakdown. It's on the list -likely after NFZ. We do expect higher dyno numbers but like I said earlier in the thread, until we have them on a healthy motor I wouldn't really want to guess how they'd compare to competitor designs. I believe it would be close, probably lean toward the competitor for outright flow capability and toward us for spool/transient response. Super fun turbo and cheaper than the GC's by a significant margin.

As far as referenced boost, we found MHD to run artificially high. On the white car, it's instrumented with calibrated AEM sensors that are far more accurate. Any time we post about the white car we also include normal MHD logs in addition to the AEM screenshots for those that want to do MHD to MHD comparisons. Referencing MHD, our 765 whp run on GC's was done with a proper pro-tune at 31.6 psi at redline, on a 6MT, with a nice fresh motor. 660 on an auto with a slightly tweaked canned tune at 28 psi is right in line with what we'd expect. Oh, and yes, the dip is the shift.

Below is the GC lites at 24.5 psi flat (MHD referenced). 628 whp.

Really looking forward to NFZ.

[cb1]

I went with Vargas.

BUT read my story.

Bought the OEM replacement turbos with upgraded thrust and billet wheel. 2wks later or <500miles on them, they started smoking. I was burning oil a lot. Lets just say my oil gauge was full and after 20miles, it went down to 3/4. Because of this, my pre-cat O2 sensors got messed up. Brought it back to EAS to remove and send the turbos for "POSSIBLE" warranty repair/replacement. Vargas wants to inspect before honoring or not the warranty. Upon initial inspection by me, I am not an expert, but there was obvious internal damage.

I am waiting what Vargas has to say about my turbos. EAS mailed them this week. HOPING it gets warrantied quickly. Less 500miles and the turbos fail? It better get warrantied.

I vote for Pure. Next time, they will be my choice. RELIABILITY over anything for me.

[Pure Turbos]

Originally Posted by pits200

I guess the easy question is, do you have a 750whp dyno for the stage 2s?

Anybody seeking that power level should be looking at single turbo kits. Maybe you should read your own quote:
"Not sure why company's all around think playing games with numbers is going to fool the consumer. I guess who am I kidding it probably works most of the time."

Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech

Pits nailed it; it's about flow capability. The GC's will make more horsepower than any other twin offering on the market by a huge margin. I'm not directly familiar with your S2 offering and don't want to misspeak about it, but at the 660-680 whp the GC's are not close to being maxed -at all. That's a conservative range, tons left in them.

Since the GC's flow so much more, we do expect they to take a spool hit compared to the GC lites -you know how that game goes with flow versus spool -it's always a tradeoff unless you're improving a ridiculous restriction (the GC family does -at the manifold). The lites are a better comparison to most current competitor offerings. We got 650 whp out of them on a tired motor, and haven't re-dyno'd them yet on a motor that doesn't have 20% leakdown. It's on the list -likely after NFZ. We do expect higher dyno numbers but like I said earlier in the thread, until we have them on a healthy motor I wouldn't really want to guess how they'd compare to competitor designs. I believe it would be close, probably lean toward the competitor for outright flow capability and toward us for spool/transient response. Super fun turbo and cheaper than the GC's by a significant margin.

As far as referenced boost, we found MHD to run artificially high. On the white car, it's instrumented with calibrated AEM sensors that are far more accurate. Any time we post about the white car we also include normal MHD logs in addition to the AEM screenshots for those that want to do MHD to MHD comparisons. Referencing MHD, our 765 whp run on GC's was done with a proper pro-tune at 31.6 psi at redline, on a 6MT, with a nice fresh motor. 660 on an auto with a slightly tweaked canned tune at 28 psi is right in line with what we'd expect. Oh, and yes, the dip is the shift.

Below is the GC lites at 24.5 psi flat (MHD referenced). 628 whp.

Really looking forward to NFZ.

I'm not saying your Taiwan turbos are junk. I'm just saying I haven't seen anything game changing. It sounds like the Australian guys stopped at the same 660-680 power level. Then this result today peaks at 660 then dives. That's not a shift btw. I showed you what a shift looks like. RPM goes down when you shift, not up. lol. But that's a moot point. If it held boost to redline, it would have followed right along with the overlayed PURE stg2 hp trace at ~680whp. Thanks for the customer results, interested to see more.
Happy Halloween

[TrollToll]

Pure, this may be news, but you guys are one of the only companies out there who hasn't started a bunch of s*** online. Also, starting a bunch of s*** now is going to lose a lot of respect for the company. It may be wise to remain the only respectable turbo company, behaviorally speaking.

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Originally Posted by cb1

I went with Vargas.

BUT read my story.

Bought the OEM replacement turbos with upgraded thrust and billet wheel. 2wks later or <500miles on them, they started smoking. I was burning oil a lot. Lets just say my oil gauge was full and after 20miles, it went down to 3/4. Because of this, my pre-cat O2 sensors got messed up. Brought it back to EAS to remove and send the turbos for "POSSIBLE" warranty repair/replacement. Vargas wants to inspect before honoring or not the warranty. Upon initial inspection by me, I am not an expert, but there was obvious internal damage.

I am waiting what Vargas has to say about my turbos. EAS mailed them this week. HOPING it gets warrantied quickly. Less 500miles and the turbos fail? It better get warrantied.

I vote for Pure. Next time, they will be my choice. RELIABILITY over anything for me.

Shoot me a PM or preferably email -I'll help you drive this to resolution.

Originally Posted by Pure

...competitor response...

See you at NFZ.

Chris

[1hunglow]

Originally Posted by cb1

I went with Vargas.

BUT read my story.

Bought the OEM replacement turbos with upgraded thrust and billet wheel. 2wks later or <500miles on them, they started smoking. I was burning oil a lot. Lets just say my oil gauge was full and after 20miles, it went down to 3/4. Because of this, my pre-cat O2 sensors got messed up. Brought it back to EAS to remove and send the turbos for "POSSIBLE" warranty repair/replacement. Vargas wants to inspect before honoring or not the warranty. Upon initial inspection by me, I am not an expert, but there was obvious internal damage.

I am waiting what Vargas has to say about my turbos. EAS mailed them this week. HOPING it gets warrantied quickly. Less 500miles and the turbos fail? It better get warrantied.

I vote for Pure. Next time, they will be my choice. RELIABILITY over anything for me.

To quote tony "we don't build turbos that fail, period!!!!!!!!!!"

Odds are he will tell you the turbos ingested something foreign, and your engine is toast, meaning no warranty. Seems odd that all VTT failures are due to foreign object damage after VTT gets a "good look" at em.

I hope you or the shop took some photo evidence prior to mailing them back.

[jippii ensio]

Originally Posted by cb1

I went with Vargas.

BUT read my story.

Bought the OEM replacement turbos with upgraded thrust and billet wheel. 2wks later or <500miles on them, they started smoking. I was burning oil a lot. Lets just say my oil gauge was full and after 20miles, it went down to 3/4. Because of this, my pre-cat O2 sensors got messed up. Brought it back to EAS to remove and send the turbos for "POSSIBLE" warranty repair/replacement. Vargas wants to inspect before honoring or not the warranty. Upon initial inspection by me, I am not an expert, but there was obvious internal damage.

I am waiting what Vargas has to say about my turbos. EAS mailed them this week. HOPING it gets warrantied quickly. Less 500miles and the turbos fail? It better get warrantied.

I vote for Pure. Next time, they will be my choice. RELIABILITY over anything for me.

This.
VTT turbos keep failing, smoking and VTT keeps giving their customers hard time when it happens.

[MJ80.]

VVT challenging competitors to races when the competitor has mostly stock setup w bolt ons and their product and VVT has all that and more + fully built engine, lol big guys.

VVT still not addressing valid points raised by Pure, side steps around points without addressing them or acknowledging playing field is not level.

[pits200]

Originally Posted by MJ80.

VVT challenging competitors to races when the competitor has mostly stock setup w bolt ons and their product and VVT has all that and more + fully built engine, lol big guys.

VVT still not addressing valid points raised by Pure, side steps around points without addressing them or acknowledging playing field is not level.

Where are they not addressing, the higher dyno numbers are on a MT with a raised limiter and it shows the turbos have enough breathe to continue producing power at 7400 rpm.

It's obvious if you have an AT that you lose rpms and therefore won't produce what Vargas is producing when it comes to power until the AT get tuned and upgraded.

The almost 800whp number isn't what I'm chasing on GCs, all I want to see is that the turbos can produce those numbers because it means the turbos at a lower power level should be able to handle it with no problem.

Has no one ever done stress testing before on anything in the outside world? Not sure why no one sees the benefit to running these turbos higher and higher even if you don't plan on doing a full engine build.

As for reliability, I have 113k miles on my car with about 1500 miles on my GCs. So far, so good.

[davidwarren]

I just want some turbos that will run all day at the track (circuit, not drag) on pump gas and last a long time.

[E92 420]

Originally Posted by TrollToll

Pure, this may be news, but you guys are one of the only companies out there who hasn't started a bunch of s*** online. Also, starting a bunch of s*** now is going to lose a lot of respect for the company. It may be wise to remain the only respectable turbo company, behaviorally speaking.

^^THIS^^

[Pure Turbos]

Originally Posted by TrollToll

Pure, this may be news, but you guys are one of the only companies out there who hasn't started a bunch of s*** online. Also, starting a bunch of s*** now is going to lose a lot of respect for the company. It may be wise to remain the only respectable turbo company, behaviorally speaking.

Originally Posted by E92 420

^^THIS^^

Understood and agreed. Thanks guys. There's no intention of starting anything. I'm just raising questions using data. Questions I think the community should be interested in as well. But yes, I think I proved my point. Thanks