[jpsimon]

20k later...

Originally Posted by Hegemony

In answer to the OP,

A: Because that's what Dinan S3 is for. The offroad upgrade for the ultimate enthusiast. (read as $$ for Dinan.)

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by Hegemony

In answer to the OP,

Q: Why does the Dinan S2 package not include an intake and downpipes?

A: Because that's what Dinan S3 is for. The offroad upgrade for the ultimate enthusiast. (read as $$ for Dinan.)

If it will be like this, fine. I think that Dinan and it's reputation are a very good reference. However, I agree that the parts and labor can be quite costly ( e.g. oil-cooler ).

[hotrod2448]

I can see AA matching Dinan's numbers so, people will feel good about the "safety" margin and have it at a fraction of the price. Because let's face it Dinan is conservative enough that very few people will actually need that Dinan warranty. Then let people speculate and spread paranoia about other products.

Seems to be working.

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by hotrod2448

I can see AA matching Dinan's numbers so, people will feel good about the "safety" margin and have it at a fraction of the price. Because let's face it Dinan is conservative enough that very few people will actually need that Dinan warranty. Then let people speculate and spread paranoia about other products.

Seems to be working.

I don't see anybody spreading paranoia. There are different users on this forum with different expectations. The PROcede users are well presented and respected here. What they think and whether they get paranoia due to Dinan or AA has nothing to do with the information available on the forum. Everybody can and should decide based on individual and important personal criterias. A tuning product is not a religion.

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

Originally Posted by hotrod2448

I can see AA matching Dinan's numbers so, people will feel good about the "safety" margin and have it at a fraction of the price. Because let's face it Dinan is conservative enough that very few people will actually need that Dinan warranty. Then let people speculate and spread paranoia about other products.

Seems to be working.

We actually had our tuning option available before Dinan. We did not look to match Dinan. We were looking to basically match the Xede's power out put and no more. We are just using a different platform, however the tuning and R&D is still Active Autowerke.

[NM_BMW]

Originally Posted by e.n335

I don't see anybody spreading paranoia. There are different users on this forum with different expectations. The PROcede users are well presented and respected here. What they think and whether they get paranoia due to Dinan or AA has nothing to do with the information available on the forum. Everybody can and should decide based on individual and important personal criterias. A tuning product is not a religion.

Amen brother.

[BMWI6]

JB2HR FTW!!!!!!! around 600 bucks and it gets me 400hp , 420tq without codes on 91 octane..... what else do you want???

[NM_BMW]

Originally Posted by BMWI6

JB2HR FTW!!!!!!! around 600 bucks and it gets me 400hp , 420tq without codes on 91 octane..... what else do you want???

This isn't a tuning war thread. He was simply trying to understand why the two companies had such close numbers.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by Active Autowerke II

We actually had our tuning option available before Dinan. We did not look to match Dinan. We were looking to basically match the Xede's power out put and no more. We are just using a different platform, however the tuning and R&D is still Active Autowerke.

AA what is your stance though? Are we maxing out the duty cycle on the injectors? Is HPFP maxed out at that power level? Internals? Why are you choosing that number?

[LACA335i]

Originally Posted by e.n335

- 407hp / 429tq are the flywheel numbers of the new Dinan stage 2 package
- 410hp / 430tq are the flywheel numbers of the new AA Active Processor package

Both companies have quite a lot of experience in tuning BMW engines, both companies applied forced induction to BMW NA engines. The companies use very different methods for the tuning ( ECU flash vs. piggyback ), both upgrade the FMIC's and don't use aftermarket intakes or downpipes. In both companies reliability of the tuned cars has high priority and is part of their long-term strategy.

Do we see engine / drivetrain limitations here or do you think it's all just by accident - what is your opinion ?

Cheers,
Eugen

i believe u are correct. the number seem to be realistic number. If you starting to upgrade other things. and make your upgrade the combustion parts and other internal compoment. Upgrade the turbo. you will reach well over 600 hp. I m still strongly believe, the zf can hold around 620w lb torque. 580 whp. . the number is the 335i car limitation.

i cant wait until post up the upgrade turbo dyno chart run

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

AA what is your stance though? Are we maxing out the duty cycle on the injectors? Is HPFP maxed out at that power level? Internals? Why are you choosing that number?

+1 - very good question. I would appreciate feedback from AA as well.

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

AA what is your stance though? Are we maxing out the duty cycle on the injectors? Is HPFP maxed out at that power level? Internals? Why are you choosing that number?

Honestly i doubt the internals or injectors are closed to being maxed out. Still has to be tested. However the stock turbo's aren't going to take you there. The 335 is still a relatively new car. People tuned or not are still experiencing a few issues, whether it be a fuel pump or w/e else people are having issues with.

Its not rocket science. I hate to sound negative but the 335 is not the first car to get a piggy back system or be tuned. It is much more difficult than most cars and takes more R&D.

If you look at the stock turbo's they are small. They were not designed for a great peak power. As you can see neither was the entire setup, such as the wastegates.

After countless hours of testing on our shop car in Miami weather we have basically come to the conclusion that anything more than ~13-14 peak boost (which will obviously taper down due to the turbo size) is more of a risk and the performance isn't that great.. We are not in business to take chances. Our shop car is on its second set of turbo's because of testing at such high levels. I have dynoed our car at over 400 and 400. Too bad it didn't last long.

So instead of working on max power we decided to work on trying to keep the boost chart smooth, smooth power delivery and reliability.

Disclaimer:
Please take this as just an opinion on our product and no one else's.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by jpsimon

20k later...

If ya got it, spend it.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by Active Autowerke II

After countless hours of testing on our shop car in Miami weather we have basically come to the conclusion that anything more than ~13-14 peak boost (which will obviously taper down due to the turbo size) is more of a risk and the performance isn't that great.. We are not in business to take chances. Our shop car is on its second set of turbo's because of testing at such high levels. I have dynoed our car at over 400 and 400. Too bad it didn't last long.

So instead of working on max power we decided to work on trying to keep the boost chart smooth, smooth power delivery and reliability.

+1.

Very well said. What good is power without reliability? My 335i is a daily driver, I'd rather enjoy more modest power that does not compromise the function of the car.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by Active Autowerke II

Honestly i doubt the internals or injectors are closed to being maxed out. Still has to be tested. However the stock turbo's aren't going to take you there. The 335 is still a relatively new car. People tuned or not are still experiencing a few issues, whether it be a fuel pump or w/e else people are having issues with.

Its not rocket science. I hate to sound negative but the 335 is not the first car to get a piggy back system or be tuned. It is much more difficult than most cars and takes more R&D.

If you look at the stock turbo's they are small. They were not designed for a great peak power. As you can see neither was the entire setup, such as the wastegates.

After countless hours of testing on our shop car in Miami weather we have basically come to the conclusion that anything more than ~13-14 peak boost (which will obviously taper down due to the turbo size) is more of a risk and the performance isn't that great.. We are not in business to take chances. Our shop car is on its second set of turbo's because of testing at such high levels. I have dynoed our car at over 400 and 400. Too bad it didn't last long.

So instead of working on max power we decided to work on trying to keep the boost chart smooth, smooth power delivery and reliability.

Disclaimer:
Please take this as just an opinion on our product and no one else's.

AA, first, thanks for the response. Do you know the duty cycle of the injectors? What power level do you feel our fuel system will support? Where exactly are the turbo's failing? I appeciate the info and help very much.

[jpsimon]

Good info thanks

Originally Posted by Active Autowerke II

Honestly i doubt the internals or injectors are closed to being maxed out. Still has to be tested. However the stock turbo's aren't going to take you there. The 335 is still a relatively new car. People tuned or not are still experiencing a few issues, whether it be a fuel pump or w/e else people are having issues with.

Its not rocket science. I hate to sound negative but the 335 is not the first car to get a piggy back system or be tuned. It is much more difficult than most cars and takes more R&D.

If you look at the stock turbo's they are small. They were not designed for a great peak power. As you can see neither was the entire setup, such as the wastegates.

After countless hours of testing on our shop car in Miami weather we have basically come to the conclusion that anything more than ~13-14 peak boost (which will obviously taper down due to the turbo size) is more of a risk and the performance isn't that great.. We are not in business to take chances. Our shop car is on its second set of turbo's because of testing at such high levels. I have dynoed our car at over 400 and 400. Too bad it didn't last long.

So instead of working on max power we decided to work on trying to keep the boost chart smooth, smooth power delivery and reliability.

Disclaimer:
Please take this as just an opinion on our product and no one else's.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

+1.

Very well said. What good is power without reliability? My 335i is a daily driver, I'd rather enjoy more modest power that does not compromise the function of the car.

You must understand that not everyone is like you. BMW opened a new can of worms with the 135i and 335i. They got into a tuner market and have reaped huge rewards. Perceived reliability is not good enough. What Dinan says is not good enough. People are looking for hard facts that back up opinions. There are a world of tuners doing many different things and I think most of us want to know why? Determining where our car may be weak is simply the starting point and the information that will take the 335i into the future.

[hotrod2448]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

You must understand that not everyone is like you. BMW opened a new can of worms with the 135i and 335i. They got into a tuner market and have reaped huge rewards. Perceived reliability is not good enough. What Dinan says is not good enough. People are looking for hard facts that back up opinions. There are a world of tuners doing many different things and I think most of us want to know why? Determining where our car may be weak is simply the starting point and the information that will take the 335i into the future.

Exactly. I'm one that usually builds my own parts for my car. I enjoy having a good knowledge of what is going on under my hood. I rely on others for the tuning because I'm just not that computer savvy and don't want to fat finger my way into a new engine.

AA, thanks for replying. I wasn't trying to insinuate that was what you guys did or be a jerk. Just speculating why the power levels might be so close. Can you provide some specifics on what is going on with the injector duty cycle? Like what it's at @15psi, what the max duty cycle you guys feel comfortable with is and why?

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by Active Autowerke II

Honestly i doubt the internals or injectors are closed to being maxed out. Still has to be tested. However the stock turbo's aren't going to take you there. The 335 is still a relatively new car. People tuned or not are still experiencing a few issues, whether it be a fuel pump or w/e else people are having issues with.

Its not rocket science. I hate to sound negative but the 335 is not the first car to get a piggy back system or be tuned. It is much more difficult than most cars and takes more R&D.

If you look at the stock turbo's they are small. They were not designed for a great peak power. As you can see neither was the entire setup, such as the wastegates.

After countless hours of testing on our shop car in Miami weather we have basically come to the conclusion that anything more than ~13-14 peak boost (which will obviously taper down due to the turbo size) is more of a risk and the performance isn't that great.. We are not in business to take chances. Our shop car is on its second set of turbo's because of testing at such high levels. I have dynoed our car at over 400 and 400. Too bad it didn't last long.

So instead of working on max power we decided to work on trying to keep the boost chart smooth, smooth power delivery and reliability.

Disclaimer:
Please take this as just an opinion on our product and no one else's.

Thank you for your response. Using your new Active Processor I can say I enjoy it every day!

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

AA, first, thanks for the response. Do you know the duty cycle of the injectors? What power level do you feel our fuel system will support? Where exactly are the turbo's failing? (see below) I appeciate the info and help very much.

Well remember that with a direct inject fuel system things are a bit different (this is a whole discussion in itself - to discuss direct injection and what it really is) . So at the moment without testing the cars limits its too soon to come to certain conclusions. Also no one has an upgrade option available either so we are stuck with stock. However i can assure you we are not approaching the fuel systems limits as of yet. There is still room to play with.

However as i said, the stock turbo's will not get you there.

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

You must understand that not everyone is like you. BMW opened a new can of worms with the 135i and 335i. They got into a tuner market and have reaped huge rewards. Perceived reliability is not good enough. What Dinan says is not good enough. People are looking for hard facts that back up opinions. There are a world of tuners doing many different things and I think most of us want to know why? Determining where our car may be weak is simply the starting point and the information that will take the 335i into the future.

I agree with you in regards to this is a popular car because of its perceived potential. BUT at the moment there aren't too many people ready to start testing this cars limits (power wise). That's the truth. We have the ability to go farther but at the moment it may be a pointless journey from a company point of view, not an enthusiast point of view.

This car does seem to have that potential but only time will tell what is to come.

Originally Posted by hotrod2448

AA, thanks for replying. I wasn't trying to insinuate that was what you guys did or be a jerk. Just speculating why the power levels might be so close. Can you provide some specifics on what is going on with the injector duty cycle? Like what it's at @15psi, what the max duty cycle you guys feel comfortable with is and why?

I did not take it offensively just wanted to clarify something. Please take no offense to it either.

In regards to fuel. As I stated above even at 15+ psi on the stock turbo's are not maxing the fuel. The fuel isn't the issue at hand its the turbo's ability.

If you ever see the stock turbo's they are very small. The impeller wheels on the turbo's can't take constant abuse at ~16-20 psi, which causes the blades to bend. The turbo can not handle those amounts of boost. It also starts to blow hot air, meaning it is no longer making a consistent number of hp per psi as it does before 15 psi, so its becoming inefficient.

[Jean@ActiveAutowerke]

Originally Posted by e.n335

Thank you for your response. Using your new Active Processor I can say I enjoy it every day!

Thank You. Post like that is what we strive for.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

You must understand that not everyone is like you. BMW opened a new can of worms with the 135i and 335i. They got into a tuner market and have reaped huge rewards. Perceived reliability is not good enough. What Dinan says is not good enough. People are looking for hard facts that back up opinions. There are a world of tuners doing many different things and I think most of us want to know why? Determining where our car may be weak is simply the starting point and the information that will take the 335i into the future.

I agree. Not everyone values reliability over power. Would you agree that we are seeing one set of tuners setting "A" as their perceived limit for the N54 and then there is another set of tuners that set "B" as the limit. Regardless of who is right, we are definitely seeing tuners who started out with perhaps more conservative tunes are beginning to now push the envelopes a bit more. For instance, Dinan is now doing this in conjunction with other products (FMIC) to help compensate for the added boost and power. SSTT, another initially more conservative tune is coming out with a Stage 2 as well.

I agree that the question of why some tuners are choosing one path with boost, and others are choosing another is a good one. It seems like one of those instances where only time will tell exactly what is ideal for the N54 to handle, I'm just someone who decides to play on the safe side. That being said, I am still amazed by the performance delivered by tunes such as the Procede and the Juice Box and I fully support those individuals who choose those products as tunes for their car. The more competition out there, the faster we will probably figure out the answer to the "limit" question.