[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Sea-Tac

Act 5, scene 1...

I hope you aren't sleep walking through the castle with blood on your hands to...

Kinda. In the boardroom with my attys pretending to pay attention as they drone on and on.

[Sea-Tac]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

We'll have to trade private/parochial school stories at some point. Always the best because of the creativity in getting into trouble. The best I've heard, to date, involves a helicopter. No joke...a helicopter.

Oh Jesus! I believe it!

[fravel]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Even the more recent data says the same.

http://www.hamiltonproject.org/paper...eir_lifetimes/

I'm discussing earning by educational attainment, not savings and efficiency. Overall, those that have a college education earn more. There are, naturally, outliers but the trend is unmistakable.

I get that, and I'm not denying that college grads earn more. My point is that once debt payments are factored in the difference in earnings is negated.

I ran the numbers at my first job out of school (BS biomedical engineering)...after taxes and student loans were factored in, I would have netted more money by managing a McDonald's for $12/hr. My tax burden would have been lower because I "earned" less money + I wouldn't have had an exorbitant debt load. Granted, that has changed since then but I'm still not netting significantly more than I would if I didn't have the degree. All said and done I'll be 30 years into my career before I see any appreciable benefit over the guy who went straight into the workforce. College was supposed to be a way to get ahead...instead I'll have one foot in the grave before I ever approach "ahead".

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by fravel

I get that, and I'm not denying that college grads earn more. My point is that once debt payments are factored in the difference in earnings is negated.

I ran the numbers at my first job out of school (BS biomedical engineering)...after taxes and student loans were factored in, I would have netted more money by managing a McDonald's for $12/hr. My tax burden would have been lower because I "earned" less money + I wouldn't have had an exorbitant debt load. Granted, that has changed since then but I'm still not netting significantly more than I would if I didn't have the degree. All said and done I'll be 30 years into my career before I see any appreciable benefit over the guy who went straight into the workforce. College was supposed to be a way to get ahead...instead I'll have one foot in the grave before I ever approach "ahead".

If weighing worst case against worst case, perhaps. My mom told me when I was in grad school that I'd probably make in excess of $200K per year by the time my career ended when, at the time, I was making about $75K. I couldn't believe it but it turned out she was wrong. I was making well over $200K before I was 40 and blew through the next major levels in the next few years. All I'm saying is this...for someone that is ambitious and hard working (As you are, guessing from the content of your posts.) having a degree is a ticket which only shows that one had the discipline to finish school. This gives one a leg up on those that didn't.

A case in point is an acquaintance that works at a quasi-public organization in an engineering role. He knows VASTLY more than anyone in his department but can't be promoted and can't run the department which would be far more better in his hands because he doesn't have a degree. They manage to pay him an bonus of sorts to keep him semi-satisfied financially but he has reached the top of his career path due to this limitation.

Cheers, my friend - mk

[Sea-Tac]

Originally Posted by fravel

With all due respect, the data you provided was compiled in 2004 and would have had to have been the results of the previous 40 years (read: when college was cheap). For the modern college student without scholarships or outside funding, $80k-$100k in student loans just for a bachelors is quickly becoming the norm. Factoring in interest over 20-30 years and whatever supposed advantage one has over a high school grad goes out the window. Who cares if you make an extra half a mil over your lifetime, that half a mil just let you pay off your debt. All you accomplished was delaying your entrance into the workforce.

What you "earn" on paper doesn't matter...what you get to keep is what determines your quality of life.



Our country is desperate for skilled tradesmen, unfortunately our youth have been sold snake oil that a degree is their ticket to a better life.

I can appreciate your frustration. All the numbers and stats are meaningless now. My friend, you WILL see the benefit of your education in many ways, just one of which is pay...it will happen in far less than 30 years. You'll get there.

Biomedical engineering is a hot degree in certain areas of the US...find those areas like San Jose, Seattle, Charlotte...many companies today are helping their young employees pay off school debt too. Its common down in The Bay Area.

This is going to sound totally alien to you, but consider getting an advanced degree to enhance your engineering skills - maybe an advanced business degree. Push yourself to the head of the applicant pool with good grades and academic achievement. Your degree will work for you.

[E90CPhT]

I chose a private in-state for my undergrad and hopefully for graduate school.
My scholarship was full-tuition, only paying for room and board plus any essentials that may spring up (Although it won't cover graduate school). Then after two years of undergrad (I won't be earning a bachelors), as long as I have a 3.2 GPA, meet the prereqs, and do well on my interview I am offered a spot at my university's Pharmacy School. The incentives, relative savings, and the great school just made it so much simpler to go with a private school. Plus private schools tend to offer their undergrad students better spots in their graduate programs, which state schools can't do.

[bimmer456]

Originally Posted by E90CPhT

I chose a private in-state for my undergrad and hopefully for graduate school.
My scholarship was full-tuition, only paying for room and board plus any essentials that may spring up (Although it won't cover graduate school). Then after two years of undergrad (I won't be earning a bachelors), as long as I have a 3.2 GPA, meet the prereqs, and do well on my interview I am offered a spot at my university's Pharmacy School. The incentives, relative savings, and the great school just made it so much simpler to go with a private school. Plus private schools tend to offer their undergrad students better spots in their graduate programs, which state schools can't do.

It's only worth it if you can get a full scholarship, or the scholarship makes the cost the same as a public school.

[E90CPhT]

Originally Posted by bimmer456

It's only worth it if you can get a full scholarship, or the scholarship makes the cost the same as a public school.

It's less than any state schools that I know of for undergrad. Pharmacy School is expensive no matter where you go though.

[TheWatchGuy]

depends on what your end goals are imo.

Someone who wants to go into a field that requires having an "in" with someone to get a job, or something where presitige matters, a private university is going to give you a leg up over public.

Conversely, for those degrees where just a degree is needed, and theres a plethora of jobs, or all programs are the same, public is just fine.

I was a Construction management/business double major and went to a public university. The curriculum across all CM programs is all the same and the industry doesnt really care where you went.

Where someone wanting to be a lawyer/dr/etc. is probably going to want to do private or a more prestigious school where those kind of things matter to the ones hiring.

[TheWatchGuy]

Originally Posted by fravel

Unless one receives a scholarship and/or has someone else footing the bill for tuition, undergrad/grad school are both scams regardless of private vs public.

Learn a trade, name your price.

depends on if you want to do hard work the rest of your life or not.

Im all for people that dont want to go to college to learn a trade, we need more tradesmen, but the majority of the time, it is going to lead you down a path of working in the field for your career.

sure some guys work their way up the chain to foreman, super, cm/pm, etc. but that isnt the norm. the companies i have worked for, those without a degree take much longer to make it up the chain than those with them.