[rdsport323]

well I've had a few people locally drive my car that didn't have 29.2... usc335i and rotaz and nick@autobahn have all driven my car.. and none of them felt much difference.. maybe a little but then again, their cars have tunes so naturaly my car would be slower to them.

im assuming I have 29.2 since my production date was 3/08... and I'm not sure if I feel lag. and even if I did, its not very noticeable while daily driving.

Quick question though... you guys use an example of being in 5th gear at 80mph, and lets say you are at 2k rpm... then u decide to go WOT, will the rpm gauge increase "before" or "after" the turbo/lag kicks in or passes?

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by rdsport323

Quick question though... you guys use an example of being in 5th gear at 80mph, and lets say you are at 2k rpm... then u decide to go WOT, will the rpm gauge increase "before" or "after" the turbo/lag kicks in or passes?

Revs will always climb when you floor it otherwise you are up against a brick wall.

[mistermojorizin]

I have a Feb 08 built 135i and I bought it on April 14. My car behaves exactly as described in this 2006 post on roadfly http://forums.roadfly.com/forums/bmw...028595-1.html:

"Try stepping on the gas in 4th gear at 2000 rpms. The car will make a little "hiccup" and then go. If the car wasn't a turbo, people would be complaining that there is a problem with the throttle. If you're old like me and remember carburetors....the throttle response of carburetors is much like the turbo lag. It's nothing like the old Saab's, but nevertheless it's there. There is no way you can have turbos without some lag."

I don't know if I have 29.2, but i know the car has the abovementioned "hicup" and lag. But as the post demonstrates the 335's had it pre 29.2 anyway. So what's the deal?

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by mistermojorizin

I have a Feb 08 built 135i and I bought it on April 14. My car behaves exactly as described in this 2006 post on roadfly http://forums.roadfly.com/forums/bmw...028595-1.html:

"Try stepping on the gas in 4th gear at 2000 rpms. The car will make a little "hiccup" and then go. If the car wasn't a turbo, people would be complaining that there is a problem with the throttle. If you're old like me and remember carburetors....the throttle response of carburetors is much like the turbo lag. It's nothing like the old Saab's, but nevertheless it's there. There is no way you can have turbos without some lag."

I don't know if I have 29.2, but i know the car has the abovementioned "hicup" and lag. But as the post demonstrates the 335's had it pre 29.2 anyway. So what's the deal?

I am guessing my hicup is a bigger pain in the ass than yours.

[iScream]

Originally Posted by mistermojorizin

I have a Feb 08 built 135i and I bought it on April 14. My car behaves exactly as described in this 2006 post on roadfly http://forums.roadfly.com/forums/bmw...028595-1.html:

"Try stepping on the gas in 4th gear at 2000 rpms. The car will make a little "hiccup" and then go. If the car wasn't a turbo, people would be complaining that there is a problem with the throttle. If you're old like me and remember carburetors....the throttle response of carburetors is much like the turbo lag. It's nothing like the old Saab's, but nevertheless it's there. There is no way you can have turbos without some lag."

I don't know if I have 29.2, but i know the car has the abovementioned "hicup" and lag. But as the post demonstrates the 335's had it pre 29.2 anyway. So what's the deal?

what happens when you do the same thing at 2000 RPMs?

[meyergru]

As I am currently probably the only person on this planet that has gone from v27 to v30 and back, I can assure you:

Whatever anyone says about general turbo lag and or throttle response may be correct, but that is not the point for the 335i. BMWs marketing material was correct before DME software v29.2 in saying that there is no lag at all.

At least, turbo lag was (and now is again) nearly unnoticeable to me with v27.

With v30, I had the effect that below 2000 RPMs, it takes a whole second before you can actually feel the turbo effect, the car went as if there were no turbos at all. Shiv@Vishnu attributed this to the wastegate staying open more and/or longer. We discussed that already in the other thread.

BMW engineers would not believe it, denying a downgrade for a full week, saying that something else had to be wrong with my car. This was up to the point that having no options left, they finally gave permission to downgrade my car again which solved the problem altogether. This was the first time they actually acknowledged there was a problem and I was told that they are working on the issue now. I am still waiting for a final fix and doubt that they will downgrade other affected cars but rather supply a real fix for this problem (cost and "lemon law" considerations come to mind).

So, yes, there is lag with DME softwares from v29.2 up to current versions (I have neither read nor heard anything about a newer version solving the problem). Whether this is something that is triggered by certain surrounding conditions is unclear, yet with my car, BMW has not found anything particular.

If you see that in any gear, running at RPM < 2000, you feel a second kick after about 1 second while accelerating (make sure that you stay in gear, especially with AT!), you have lag that initially was not present in 335i cars and is at least partially software-related.

IMHO, I think people that say they don't have this problem with DME software >= v29.2 simply have no comparison (maybe because they got a new car with that version pre-installed), lack feeling for they cars or, MAYBE their cars don't fulfill the triggering precondition, if there is any.
Also, from what I've read, I must conclude that this effect is not limited to AT or MT versions.

[mistermojorizin]

IScream, i'm confused by your question, doesn't my post address that exactly? "what happens when you do the same thing at 2000 RPMs?"

my car will lurch forward slowly, then it'll start really accelerating after some delay. really noticable in 4th gear at 2000 rpms. just like they describe the car in the post from 2 years ago. i never feel a "rush of torque" at 1500rpm.

[mistermojorizin]

Originally Posted by meyergru

As I am currently probably the only person on this planet that has gone from v27 to v30 and back, I can assure you:

Whatever anyone says about general turbo lag and or throttle response may be correct, but that is not the point for the 335i. BMWs marketing material was correct before DME software v29.2 in saying that there is no lag at all.

At least, turbo lag was (and now is again) nearly unnoticeable to me with v27.

With v30, I had the effect that below 2000 RPMs, it takes a whole second before you can actually feel the turbo effect, the car went as if there were no turbos at all. Shiv@Vishnu attributed this to the wastegate staying open more and/or longer. We discussed that already in the other thread.

BMW engineers would not believe it, denying a downgrade for a full week, saying that something else had to be wrong with my car. This was up to the point that having no options left, they finally gave permission to downgrade my car again which solved the problem altogether. This was the first time they actually acknowledged there was a problem and I was told that they are working on the issue now. I am still wating for a final fix.

So, yes, there is lag with DME softwares from v29.2 up to current versions (I have neither read nor heard anything about a newer version solving the problem). Whether this is something that is triggered by certain surrounding conditions is unclear, yet with my car, BMW has not found anything particular.

If you see that in any gear, running at RPM < 2000, you feel a second kick after about 1 second while accelerating (make sure that you stay in gear, especially with AT!), you have lag that initially was not present in 335i cars.

IMHO, I think people that say they don't have this problem with DME software >= v29.2 simply have no comparison (maybe because they got a new car with that version pre-installed), lack feeling for they cars or, MAYBE their cars don't fulfill the triggering precondition, if there is any.
Also, from what I've read, I must conclude that this effect is not limited to AT or MT versions.

Can you comment on the post I quoted above from roadfly that described the same lag on a car two years ago? did the pre-29.2 have NO lag, or was it just LESS lag?

[meyergru]

Originally Posted by mistermojorizin

Can you comment on the post I quoted above from roadfly that described the same lag on a car two years ago? did the pre-29.2 have NO lag, or was it just LESS lag?

As I said, it is virtually impossible to have NO lag in a turbo car. It was nearly unnoticeable to me. I think that BMW did a fine job in hiding the fact that this is a turbo car. Facing more severe problems, I am not inclined to discuss if stating "no turbo lag" was false advertising.

To make my point clear: To me, v27 is as good as having "no turbo lag". v29.2 and beyond is not.

[mistermojorizin]

ok, this may be a stupid question, but has anyone with the turbo lag tried to disconnect the battery overnight, and see if it improves?

[2point3]

I don't understand what the other cars engines you are comparing the 335 lag to in this thread have to do with what we are talking about. We are comparing our cars to how they preformed when we bought them before 29.2. My car was impressive in every way before the update now it is impressive minus the lag.

[RBBMWE46M3]

I'm not sure why people keep calling "the turbo" as in singular. This car has TWO TURBOS so there should be very little to no lag as BMW advertises. It has been explained to me that the first smaller turbo at low rpm's is supposed to make up for the delay until the larger second turbo kicks in fully. For Gods sake, the car I test drove back in March might as well been modded compared to what I took delivery in June. I could not sense ANY FUCKING LAG WITH THE DEMO,,, MY CAR HAS A TON. Floor my car (6-spman) in first ...and I don't feel the pull until 3krpm and up. The demo...floor the car (step) and I felt the pull almost instantaneously @1500 rpm. For all the people who tend to doubt us that we don't know what "throttle response" "turbo lag" "boost threshold" and all that bullshit is...can go pound some sand until you come and drive my car. All of you have an open invite to come to the Chicago area and I'll meet you so you can take it for a test drive...
Did BMW bless us with this v29.2 to " catch the tuners" or fix a noisy wastegate or to dispel the performance characteristics to help the stagnant sales of the new M3 I'm not sure and I don't give a rats ass. The car I test drove was fast enough for me. I wasn't planning on modding my car with any tunes ( although my salesman did tell me about the jb2 and that is even why I made the comment that the car I test drove might as well have been modded (( he since has been fired)) because the car was fast enough. My car........ COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CAR. By the way, I have an appointment next Wed. for " turbo-lag and long starts"

I hope I didn't offend anyone. As you can tell, I'm a little pissed about the BMW corp. turning there heads at us who have this problem.

I feel sorry for the people who bought post v29.2 who have no idea what there cars are capable of who think that they are ok and have no problems (no lag) because they have not driven pre v29.2.

I'm gunna go kick my dog now

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by RBBMWE46M3

It has been explained to me that the first smaller turbo at low rpm's is supposed to make up for the delay until the larger second turbo kicks in fully.

It was explained correctly to you if you live in Europe and own a 335d. That has a sequential turbo systems.

However, in the States, we have the 335i which is a petrol version with parallel turbos; they are the same size and work independantly off of three cylinders each.

[RBBMWE46M3]

Originally Posted by scalbert

It was explained correctly to you if you live in Europe and own a 335d. That has a sequential turbo systems.

However, in the States, we have the 335i which is a petrol version with parallel turbos; they are the same size and work independantly off of three cylinders each.

hmmm...sorry my bad

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by scalbert

It was explained correctly to you if you live in Europe and own a 335d. That has a sequential turbo systems.

However, in the States, we have the 335i which is a petrol version with parallel turbos; they are the same size and work independantly off of three cylinders each.

But the turbos that are on our 335s are slightly different sizes, therefore one does spool a bit quicker than the other making it feel somewhat like a sequential feel.

[iScream]

Originally Posted by mistermojorizin

IScream, i'm confused by your question, doesn't my post address that exactly? "what happens when you do the same thing at 2000 RPMs?"

my car will lurch forward slowly, then it'll start really accelerating after some delay. really noticable in 4th gear at 2000 rpms. just like they describe the car in the post from 2 years ago. i never feel a "rush of torque" at 1500rpm.

Sorry, I misread that as 4000 RPMs. Yes, it's the same effect, but it's not a hiccup. A hiccup would be 400-500ms or so, i.e. barely discernible by most people. The tininess of that <0.5s "hiccup" was a big reason why the 335i's engine won so many awards last year, and a big part of my decision to get a 335i within seconds of first depressing the throttle on the demo back in the Summer of 2006.

I filmed and timed my current lag, and it is now 1.6 seconds in 2nd gear. Fourth and fifth gear feel even worse, although I have not timed them yet.

[meyergru]

Originally Posted by RBBMWE46M3

I'm not sure why people keep calling "the turbo" as in singular. This car has TWO TURBOS so there should be very little to no lag as BMW advertises. It has been explained to me that the first smaller turbo at low rpm's is supposed to make up for the delay until the larger second turbo kicks in fully.

Not quite correct. It has two turbos. They are supposed to keep down lag in that they achieve the same effect as one bigger turbo but since they are smaller, the inertia is smaller so there is less delay in spooling up. Both kick in at the same RPM, however. In a 335d, it works the same way you describe. It's the difference between "twin turbo" (335i) and "biturbo" (335d).

Originally Posted by mistermojorizin

ok, this may be a stupid question, but has anyone with the turbo lag tried to disconnect the battery overnight, and see if it improves?

Reprogramming the DME does already reset any learned parameters, so maybe nobody has tried that, but it does nothing to improve the problem.

Some people insist that the problem goes away over time with re-adapting. I guess that's right - the drivers re-adapt, but not the DME!

[VeniVidiVicii777]

My previous car had a big turbo upgrade and I know what lag exactly feels like. It can happen at any RPM, it matters what PSI you are it. If full boost is at 10 psi and you are at 2psi and go WOT, then it will feel laggy until it gets to 7-8-9-10 psi and then it will pull the hardest. It's that building up of boost that seems to make it feel like nothing is happen to your car.

BMW tried their best by having a low psi (7 I believe) and 2 turbos, instead of 1 bigger turbo and say 15 psi, which takes a longer time to spool up.

It's also a combination of that lag and your automatic transmission having to downshift/upshift that slows things down.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

But the turbos that are on our 335s are slightly different sizes, therefore one does spool a bit quicker than the other making it feel somewhat like a sequential feel.

They are? They appear identical to me and I have been in that region many times. Even the reference to Mitsubishi part numbers shows them being the same model internally.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by RBBMWE46M3

I'm not sure why people keep calling "the turbo" as in singular. This car has TWO TURBOS so there should be very little to no lag as BMW advertises. It has been explained to me that the first smaller turbo at low rpm's is supposed to make up for the delay until the larger second turbo kicks in fully. For Gods sake, the car I test drove back in March might as well been modded compared to what I took delivery in June. I could not sense ANY FUCKING LAG WITH THE DEMO,,, MY CAR HAS A TON. Floor my car (6-spman) in first ...and I don't feel the pull until 3krpm and up. The demo...floor the car (step) and I felt the pull almost instantaneously @1500 rpm. For all the people who tend to doubt us that we don't know what "throttle response" "turbo lag" "boost threshold" and all that bullshit is...can go pound some sand until you come and drive my car. All of you have an open invite to come to the Chicago area and I'll meet you so you can take it for a test drive...
Did BMW bless us with this v29.2 to " catch the tuners" or fix a noisy wastegate or to dispel the performance characteristics to help the stagnant sales of the new M3 I'm not sure and I don't give a rats ass. The car I test drove was fast enough for me. I wasn't planning on modding my car with any tunes ( although my salesman did tell me about the jb2 and that is even why I made the comment that the car I test drove might as well have been modded (( he since has been fired)) because the car was fast enough. My car........ COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CAR. By the way, I have an appointment next Wed. for " turbo-lag and long starts"

I hope I didn't offend anyone. As you can tell, I'm a little pissed about the BMW corp. turning there heads at us who have this problem.

I feel sorry for the people who bought post v29.2 who have no idea what there cars are capable of who think that they are ok and have no problems (no lag) because they have not driven pre v29.2.

I'm gunna go kick my dog now

Well said.

The comment I love to hear is the "but your car is still fast".....right--but THIS is not the car I thought I was ordering. That is the major rub, the bait and switch. Sell me on the demo (no lag that I could notice) and deliver the car I have (with very noticeable lag)....

Its complete BS as far as I am concerned....talked to many people at my dealer....no one even has a clue what to tell me....really pisses me off....

Rant over !

[oc24]

Let me phrase it this way:

From 0-50% throttle depression, I have pretty much instantaneous response. However, if I floor it, meaning I push the pedal all the way down until it contacts the floor, the car does not really move for a while, like 2-4 seconds.

Is this normal or a side effect of the new DME/progman?

[Pangearox]

sorry for this but...


what is WOT?