Clutch judder 320d edition

FieldingMellish · 01-09-2009, 03:16 PM

My car is booked in for the earliest date they could provide a courtesy car, 21st January. The more I think about it, I realise I hardly ever have a smooth gear change, there's always some degree of judder, except when, say, changing from 4th to 5th. First is, obviously, 100% jerky, then there's the notchy gear-change into 2nd, but no matter how slow or fast I change into third, it's very difficult to do so smoothly, really the only way to achieve a smooth change frm 2nd to 3rd is to let the clutch up very slowly, and of course in so doing there's the danger that you over-throttle.

Possibly related is the fact that the clutch sticks out so much further than the other pedals, so to chaneg gear you must pull your left foot back quite a bit, engage the clutch, then when you release you are reversing that process, pulling it back out and to the right.

PeteJ · 01-09-2009, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FieldingMellish

My car is booked in for the earliest date they could provide a courtesy car, 21st January. The more I think about it, I realise I hardly ever have a smooth gear change, there's always some degree of judder, except when, say, changing from 4th to 5th. First is, obviously, 100% jerky, then there's the notchy gear-change into 2nd, but no matter how slow or fast I change into third, it's very difficult to do so smoothly, really the only way to achieve a smooth change frm 2nd to 3rd is to let the clutch up very slowly, and of course in so doing there's the danger that you over-throttle.

Possibly related is the fact that the clutch sticks out so much further than the other pedals, so to chaneg gear you must pull your left foot back quite a bit, engage the clutch, then when you release you are reversing that process, pulling it back out and to the right.

The funny thing is, I put V-Power Diesel in the car the other day and the car is juddering "slightly" less.... weird!!

Ant397 · 01-12-2009, 11:16 AM

What you are describing is along the lines of what the Clutch Delay Valve or 'Lock Valve' does with certain driving types. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with your driving, but its why this doesn’t happen to everyone...

Changing the CDV is a great, fast and cheap way to give you back 100% control of your clutch and remove the interference the CDV causes.

It is possible to completely remove the CDV, but this will tighten the clutch line slightly. We recommend a replacement 'modified' unit that we can supply next day through our website at www.speedreligion.net or direct for the E90's here:

http://shop.speedreligion.net/modifi...alve-137-p.asp

The modified unit looks exactly the same from the outside as an OEM
item, but with the valve inside removed (note: it is not possible to drill the valve out, the unit needs to be opened and then re-sealed) and you also don’t have to worry about BMW dealerships asking why it’s been removed this way as everything looks as it should.

The clutch delay valve does nothing when the clutch pedal is pressed and allows the clutch to be disengaged as you wish, but when releasing the pedal, the valve in the CDV moves and reduces the flow of clutch fluid, thus hindering the engagement of the clutch and at times this can cause an almost resonance that appears as a clutch judder. This is why when a different person i.e. a BMW Technician drives your car, the chances are no fault will be found and they may tend to say it’s a 'characteristic' you must be experiencing.

I would advise people to have this modification carried out before approaching BMW to see if it solves or lessens the problem. BMW dealerships have very little experience of them and some don’t even know they are there let alone what they do. The cost for one to be replaced by ourselves is around £30 including the modified CDV.

Hope that helps.

Anthony.

monkeynuts · 01-12-2009, 11:24 AM

Hi Anthony...

Thanks for the info but I don't think the 320d has a CDV. Can anybody verify this?

Carrera RSR · 01-12-2009, 01:55 PM

Ant, If my 2008 320d has a CDV and by paying £30 fitted for the modified version cures the clutch judder and occassional slipping I have experienced and gives more feel to the bite point then I am willing to give it a go and report back.

monkeynuts · 01-17-2009, 03:55 AM

Mine never actually slips so not sure it has a CDV. I reckon mine could have a warped flywheel as yesterday when I held it (gently - not on a steep hill) on the clutch, I could really feel it 'wobbling' through the pedal. Still due to take it in so we will see what happens.

Carrera RSR · 01-17-2009, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monkeynuts

Mine never actually slips so not sure it has a CDV. I reckon mine could have a warped flywheel as yesterday when I held it (gently - not on a steep hill) on the clutch, I could really feel it 'wobbling' through the pedal. Still due to take it in so we will see what happens.

This is the judder I believe we are all talking about. I have a 'wobbly' feeling through the pedal and drive train. More especially if I am slipping the clutch slightly to control the car. More power = more judder = more slippage.

Will be replacing the CDV at Speed Religion shortly.

craig stephen · 01-17-2009, 09:59 AM

got my clutch replaced under warrenty this week after having the same juddering problem the cause of the problem was an oil leak in the gearbox and contaminated the clutch.what a differance it has made.only 14000miles on the car.

monkeynuts · 01-17-2009, 10:13 AM

That's good news Craig.

There's another (older) post entitled 'Is my clutch knackered?' which sounds much more relevant to the symptoms I'm having - rather than the CDV (which I'm still not sure is even on my car).

I just hope that if it is a warped pressure plate or flywheel, BMW will honor a warranty replacement through my AUW (it's done just over 50K now). I'm anticipating they won't be able to recreate the problem - as that's how these things normally go in my experience!

carrerarsr - do you actually know you have a CDV, or are are you going to take it in to Speed Religion find out?

PeteJ - any news on yours yet?

PeteJ · 01-17-2009, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monkeynuts

PeteJ - any news on yours yet?

Well took it to the dealer yesterday and they told me that BMW knew about this problem and it was a software bug. They said they would update the software as soon as it was released which will be in April.

Asked about replacement CDV and clutch and they said that they have replaced clutches for these types of problems before and it rarely resolved the problem.

monkeynuts · 01-17-2009, 11:52 AM

Sounds like progress - of sorts! What year is yours and is it a manual? Also how many miles have you done again? Just wondering if it's the same thing as mine? If it is a manual, I'd love to know how a software upgrade would fix it!

Carrera RSR · 01-17-2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monkeynuts

That's good news Craig.

There's another (older) post entitled 'Is my clutch knackered?' which sounds much more relevant to the symptoms I'm having - rather than the CDV (which I'm still not sure is even on my car).

I just hope that if it is a warped pressure plate or flywheel, BMW will honor a warranty replacement through my AUW (it's done just over 50K now). I'm anticipating they won't be able to recreate the problem - as that's how these things normally go in my experience!

carrerarsr - do you actually know you have a CDV, or are are you going to take it in to Speed Religion find out?

PeteJ - any news on yours yet?

I am taking the advice of Anthony of Speed Religion as he explained in a post above. I PM'd him to arrange fitting this week but we couldn't tie up a time. Trying to reschedule for next week.

monkeynuts · 01-17-2009, 02:26 PM

At the end of the day, i'd rather it was the CDV because if that was the case, as per Anthony's post, there should be a nice simple solution!

Anthony - as I'm a bit hopeless under the bonnet, I wondered if you've ever seen a 320d on a 56 plate with a CDV fitted? I've researched this again today and there is only one older (late 2005) post from another stateside forum which suggests my year/model might have one - everything else suggests that I don't - it's all a bit of a mystery!

PeteJ · 01-17-2009, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monkeynuts

Sounds like progress - of sorts! What year is yours and is it a manual? Also how many miles have you done again? Just wondering if it's the same thing as mine? If it is a manual, I'd love to know how a software upgrade would fix it!

Yeah, in some ways it was good knowing that BMW have admitted the is a problem. Fingers crossed!

Mines a manual, on an 08 plate and i've just clocked over 14K

FieldingMellish · 01-17-2009, 04:20 PM

Not to be cynical, but.... It seems to me that BMW put a lot of faith in softawre upgrades. Can it be coincidental that it costs nowt for them to upgrade your software? Hmmmmm.....

I have a lot to say, and no time to say it, about my discussions and experiences today with Ant from Speed Religion, but to summarise: the gear changes in his car were radically different to mine. I mean I was shocked by how obvious the difference was, and I will almost certainly be taking him up on his offer, which was: he will fit the replacement CDV free of charge, and if I don't like it, he will remove it. Only if I'm sure I prefer teh car with the CDV replcaed will i have to pay the (pretty low) fee. Can't really argue with that, can you?

PeteJ · 01-17-2009, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FieldingMellish

Not to be cynical, but.... It seems to me that BMW put a lot of faith in softawre upgrades. Can it be coincidental that it costs nowt for them to upgrade your software? Hmmmmm.....

I have a lot to say, and no time to say it, about my discussions and experiences today with Ant from Speed Religion, but to summarise: the gear changes in his car were radically different to mine. I mean I was shocked by how obvious the difference was, and I will almost certainly be taking him up on his offer, which was: he will fit the replacement CDV free of charge, and if I don't like it, he will remove it. Only if I'm sure I prefer teh car with the CDV replcaed will i have to pay the (pretty low) fee. Can't really argue with that, can you?

I agree with you on the software. I mean it would be great if they could wave the magic software wand and the problem would be fixed.

The only thing that puts me off the CDV is that if the car ever develops a real clutch problem and BMW find the new drilled out CDV then I don't have to guess what there response would be.

Although to be honest, anything to get rid of that judder at take off would be worth it.

Ant397 · 01-18-2009, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monkeynuts

Hi Anthony...

Thanks for the info but I don't think the 320d has a CDV. Can anybody verify this?

BMW have been fitting a CDV into all of its non-M powered manual cars for over 10 years and even tried to fit them into some M cars... people didnt like that.

Yes, 100% your 320d does have a CDV.

Anthony.

monkeynuts · 01-21-2009, 03:28 AM

Hi all...

Just an update on my situation. It's reassuring to know that my year/model does indeed have a CDV and that this is likely to be the cause of my problems (thanks for clarifying that Ant).

In recent days i've noticed that if I give 1750-2000 rpm when pulling away, I get no judder at all. Previously, I'm sure this wasn't always the case, but nowdays I never get any judder when doing this. I prefer to use more like 1000-1500 rpm and this is when I normally get judder.

So - basically, on my car, if I am slipping the clutch with not enough rpm, it judders (most likely due to the CDV).

I'm still due to take it in - just in case I have an issue like Craig had with the oil contamination.

Carrera RSR · 01-21-2009, 01:52 PM

Visited Anthony at Speed Religion today. Firstly a top guy who seems to know his stuff and I recommend him to all. We popped the car onto his ramp and removed a panel to reveal the gearbox and the Clutch Delay Valve CDV. This valve is a possible issue to some of the clutch judder we have all been experiencing on our cars. Anthony explains in previous posts what it does but essentially reduces the flow of fluid to slow down the engagement of the clutch. This causes slippage and could contribute to the judder. The valve was replaced and system bled within the hour. I drove the car away from the unit and initally felt a slight judder which was also noticed by Anthony in the passenger seat. However I have now done over 200 miles this afternoon and not experienced any further judder. I can feel the bite point on the clutch far better than previously and engagement is far more positive than previously pulling away in first and changing to second. Down changing is better as you get a more positive engagement as well. Some of you may still be going to your dealer to find a remedy and I advise you to try this avenue as you may have a clutch issue. I don't believe a software update will remedy it as someone was told. I do recommend the small price to pay for Anthony's remedy.

FieldingMellish · 01-26-2009, 10:15 AM

Going in to have my CDV replaced tomorrow morning. Will report back...

Carrera RSR · 01-26-2009, 11:06 AM

Today I am driving a 120d as a replacement car from BMW. I can honestly say I prefer the non CDV clutch feel in my 320d than this vague/spongey feel I am getting in the 120d. The biggest difference is on releasing the clutch. The non CDV clutch release is almost instant engagement as you feel the bite point. With the CDV you have no control on this bite point, hence the judder experienced as the clutch slips trying to find its bite point. Hope that makes sense!

Ant397 · 01-26-2009, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carrerarsr

Today I am driving a 120d as a replacement car from BMW. I can honestly say I prefer the non CDV clutch feel in my 320d than this vague/spongey feel I am getting in the 120d. The biggest difference is on releasing the clutch. The non CDV clutch release is almost instant engagement as you feel the bite point. With the CDV you have no control on this bite point, hence the judder experienced as the clutch slips trying to find its bite point. Hope that makes sense!

That is a great side by side test, really glad your happy!

ant.

01-09-2009, 03:16 PM	#45
FieldingMellish Captain 177 Rep 981 Posts Drives: F30 330D M Sport auto Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Manchester iTrader: (0)	My car is booked in for the earliest date they could provide a courtesy car, 21st January. The more I think about it, I realise I hardly ever have a smooth gear change, there's always some degree of judder, except when, say, changing from 4th to 5th. First is, obviously, 100% jerky, then there's the notchy gear-change into 2nd, but no matter how slow or fast I change into third, it's very difficult to do so smoothly, really the only way to achieve a smooth change frm 2nd to 3rd is to let the clutch up very slowly, and of course in so doing there's the danger that you over-throttle. Possibly related is the fact that the clutch sticks out so much further than the other pedals, so to chaneg gear you must pull your left foot back quite a bit, engage the clutch, then when you release you are reversing that process, pulling it back out and to the right.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

01-12-2009, 11:16 AM	#47
Ant397 45 Rep 408 Posts Drives: X5 4.8is, Lambo Gallardo Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Manchester, UK. iTrader: (0)	What you are describing is along the lines of what the Clutch Delay Valve or 'Lock Valve' does with certain driving types. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with your driving, but its why this doesn’t happen to everyone... Changing the CDV is a great, fast and cheap way to give you back 100% control of your clutch and remove the interference the CDV causes. It is possible to completely remove the CDV, but this will tighten the clutch line slightly. We recommend a replacement 'modified' unit that we can supply next day through our website at www.speedreligion.net or direct for the E90's here: http://shop.speedreligion.net/modifi...alve-137-p.asp The modified unit looks exactly the same from the outside as an OEM item, but with the valve inside removed (note: it is not possible to drill the valve out, the unit needs to be opened and then re-sealed) and you also don’t have to worry about BMW dealerships asking why it’s been removed this way as everything looks as it should. The clutch delay valve does nothing when the clutch pedal is pressed and allows the clutch to be disengaged as you wish, but when releasing the pedal, the valve in the CDV moves and reduces the flow of clutch fluid, thus hindering the engagement of the clutch and at times this can cause an almost resonance that appears as a clutch judder. This is why when a different person i.e. a BMW Technician drives your car, the chances are no fault will be found and they may tend to say it’s a 'characteristic' you must be experiencing. I would advise people to have this modification carried out before approaching BMW to see if it solves or lessens the problem. BMW dealerships have very little experience of them and some don’t even know they are there let alone what they do. The cost for one to be replaced by ourselves is around £30 including the modified CDV. Hope that helps. Anthony.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

01-12-2009, 11:24 AM	#48
monkeynuts Private 1 Rep 55 Posts Drives: BMW 320d SE Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	Hi Anthony... Thanks for the info but I don't think the 320d has a CDV. Can anybody verify this?
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01-12-2009, 01:55 PM	#49
Carrera RSR Colonel 75 Rep 2,937 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Location: Location: iTrader: (1)	Ant, If my 2008 320d has a CDV and by paying £30 fitted for the modified version cures the clutch judder and occassional slipping I have experienced and gives more feel to the bite point then I am willing to give it a go and report back.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

01-17-2009, 03:55 AM	#50
monkeynuts Private 1 Rep 55 Posts Drives: BMW 320d SE Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	Mine never actually slips so not sure it has a CDV. I reckon mine could have a warped flywheel as yesterday when I held it (gently - not on a steep hill) on the clutch, I could really feel it 'wobbling' through the pedal. Still due to take it in so we will see what happens.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

01-17-2009, 09:59 AM	#52
craig stephen skyper 0 Rep 18 Posts Drives: 320d m sport Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: scotland iTrader: (0)	got my clutch replaced under warrenty this week after having the same juddering problem the cause of the problem was an oil leak in the gearbox and contaminated the clutch.what a differance it has made.only 14000miles on the car.
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01-17-2009, 10:13 AM	#53
monkeynuts Private 1 Rep 55 Posts Drives: BMW 320d SE Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	That's good news Craig. There's another (older) post entitled 'Is my clutch knackered?' which sounds much more relevant to the symptoms I'm having - rather than the CDV (which I'm still not sure is even on my car). I just hope that if it is a warped pressure plate or flywheel, BMW will honor a warranty replacement through my AUW (it's done just over 50K now). I'm anticipating they won't be able to recreate the problem - as that's how these things normally go in my experience! carrerarsr - do you actually know you have a CDV, or are are you going to take it in to Speed Religion find out? PeteJ - any news on yours yet?
	Appreciate 0 Quote

01-17-2009, 11:52 AM	#55
monkeynuts Private 1 Rep 55 Posts Drives: BMW 320d SE Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	Sounds like progress - of sorts! What year is yours and is it a manual? Also how many miles have you done again? Just wondering if it's the same thing as mine? If it is a manual, I'd love to know how a software upgrade would fix it!
	Appreciate 0 Quote

01-17-2009, 02:26 PM	#57
monkeynuts Private 1 Rep 55 Posts Drives: BMW 320d SE Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	At the end of the day, i'd rather it was the CDV because if that was the case, as per Anthony's post, there should be a nice simple solution! Anthony - as I'm a bit hopeless under the bonnet, I wondered if you've ever seen a 320d on a 56 plate with a CDV fitted? I've researched this again today and there is only one older (late 2005) post from another stateside forum which suggests my year/model might have one - everything else suggests that I don't - it's all a bit of a mystery!
	Appreciate 0 Quote

01-17-2009, 04:20 PM	#59
FieldingMellish Captain 177 Rep 981 Posts Drives: F30 330D M Sport auto Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Manchester iTrader: (0)	Not to be cynical, but.... It seems to me that BMW put a lot of faith in softawre upgrades. Can it be coincidental that it costs nowt for them to upgrade your software? Hmmmmm..... I have a lot to say, and no time to say it, about my discussions and experiences today with Ant from Speed Religion, but to summarise: the gear changes in his car were radically different to mine. I mean I was shocked by how obvious the difference was, and I will almost certainly be taking him up on his offer, which was: he will fit the replacement CDV free of charge, and if I don't like it, he will remove it. Only if I'm sure I prefer teh car with the CDV replcaed will i have to pay the (pretty low) fee. Can't really argue with that, can you?
	Appreciate 0 Quote

01-21-2009, 03:28 AM	#62
monkeynuts Private 1 Rep 55 Posts Drives: BMW 320d SE Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	Hi all... Just an update on my situation. It's reassuring to know that my year/model does indeed have a CDV and that this is likely to be the cause of my problems (thanks for clarifying that Ant). In recent days i've noticed that if I give 1750-2000 rpm when pulling away, I get no judder at all. Previously, I'm sure this wasn't always the case, but nowdays I never get any judder when doing this. I prefer to use more like 1000-1500 rpm and this is when I normally get judder. So - basically, on my car, if I am slipping the clutch with not enough rpm, it judders (most likely due to the CDV). I'm still due to take it in - just in case I have an issue like Craig had with the oil contamination.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

01-21-2009, 01:52 PM	#63
Carrera RSR Colonel 75 Rep 2,937 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Location: Location: iTrader: (1)	Visited Anthony at Speed Religion today. Firstly a top guy who seems to know his stuff and I recommend him to all. We popped the car onto his ramp and removed a panel to reveal the gearbox and the Clutch Delay Valve CDV. This valve is a possible issue to some of the clutch judder we have all been experiencing on our cars. Anthony explains in previous posts what it does but essentially reduces the flow of fluid to slow down the engagement of the clutch. This causes slippage and could contribute to the judder. The valve was replaced and system bled within the hour. I drove the car away from the unit and initally felt a slight judder which was also noticed by Anthony in the passenger seat. However I have now done over 200 miles this afternoon and not experienced any further judder. I can feel the bite point on the clutch far better than previously and engagement is far more positive than previously pulling away in first and changing to second. Down changing is better as you get a more positive engagement as well. Some of you may still be going to your dealer to find a remedy and I advise you to try this avenue as you may have a clutch issue. I don't believe a software update will remedy it as someone was told. I do recommend the small price to pay for Anthony's remedy.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

01-26-2009, 10:15 AM	#64
FieldingMellish Captain 177 Rep 981 Posts Drives: F30 330D M Sport auto Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Manchester iTrader: (0)	Going in to have my CDV replaced tomorrow morning. Will report back...
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01-26-2009, 11:06 AM	#65
Carrera RSR Colonel 75 Rep 2,937 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Location: Location: iTrader: (1)	Today I am driving a 120d as a replacement car from BMW. I can honestly say I prefer the non CDV clutch feel in my 320d than this vague/spongey feel I am getting in the 120d. The biggest difference is on releasing the clutch. The non CDV clutch release is almost instant engagement as you feel the bite point. With the CDV you have no control on this bite point, hence the judder experienced as the clutch slips trying to find its bite point. Hope that makes sense!
	Appreciate 0 Quote