[JB3Racer]

I voted for the cheapest option because I think this price war will benefit all of us!

The power wire is very tricky. Other products are designed for low current to allow pulling power from the harness. I think this is a must have to be competitive. Also JB3 uses a 25 pin AMP 'DB25' connector.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by JB3Racer

I voted for the cheapest option because I think this price war will benefit all of us!

The power wire is very tricky. Other products are designed for low current to allow pulling power from the harness. I think this is a must have to be competitive. Also JB3 uses a 25 pin AMP 'DB25' connector.

Any system that drives two 15ohm 14v solenoids at 40-50% steady state with peaks up to 90% isn't exactly low current. Ohm's law will prove that. Yes, we can get 12v from a few pins ECU harness. But I'm not convinced that doing is good engineering. If that makes us noncompetitive in the eyes of some customers, there's nothing I can do about that. I think that if someone can't extract one large pin for a solid 12v source, then they probably would have a hard time exposing their ECU in the first place.

I'm also looking down the road a bit when we add on various devices that will simply plug into the PnP harness. Only so much juice you can rob for the ECU harness without causing potential issues.

Shiv

[JB3Racer]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Any system that drives two 15ohm 14v solenoids at 40-50% steady state with peaks up to 90% isn't exactly low current. Ohm's law will prove that. Yes, we can get 12v from a few pins ECU harness. But I'm not convinced that doing is good engineering. If that makes us competitive in the eyes of some customers, that's cool. I someone can't extract one large pin for 12v, then they probably would have a hard time exposing their ECU in the first place.

Shiv

You are undermining your product if you do not figure out a safe way to include the power tap in the harness. The tune I run does not have a 12v connection at all. I read it draws less than 10ma.

Also note: This poll should not include users who already have your tune. I think the current V3 users are voting for the more expensive option because they paid above that and want to preserve its value.

[sd390r]

id rock with the expensive one... as long as its under a G i would be able to justify it lol

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by JB3Racer

You are undermining your product if you do not figure out a safe way to include the power tap in the harness. The tune I run does not have a 12v connection at all. I read it draws less than 10ma.

I really don't want to get into the technical 'truthiness' of that power consumption claim or the merits/disadvantages that approach. If you are really interested in further investigation, you should grab a multimeter and measure power consumption yourself in the following conditions:

-Ignition power ON, engine off
-Engine running at idle
-Engine running at full boost and max revs.

And then report your findings to N54tech. And certainly not in the this thread.

Also note: This poll should not include users who already have your tune. I think the current V3 users are voting for the more expensive option because they paid above that and want to preserve its value.

I see your point. But I can also see which customers have voted and I think their input is just as valuable as anyone else's.

Shiv

[JB3Racer]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

And then report your findings to N54tech. And certainly not in the this thread.

OK point taken sorry for taking things off track. It seems an interesting difference but will save discussion for a more appropriate thread, or forum!

[ar design]

Will the V3 PnP upgrade price be coming down?

[getInline]

Originally Posted by JB3Racer

OK point taken sorry for taking things off track. It seems an interesting difference but will save discussion for a more appropriate thread, or forum!

Very civilized! It's nice to see that the art of adult conversation is not dead.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by ar design

Will the V3 PnP upgrade price be coming down?

Unlike the new PROcede hardware, we haven't been able to make that any less expensive to manufacture. But we'll try to do something.

Shiv

[getInline]

I voted for the race PNP only because it offers the firmware update. I think firmware updates protect both the consumer and the vendor.

Personally I think it would be a mistake to disable this feature on the Lite version for two reasons. Firstly, it could become very complicated keeping track of maps that go with different firmware versions and secondly if there is a problem in the firmware or BMW throws another curve, you have an easy means of resolving the issue. Without the firmware update, it would be a huge PR/support nightmare.

On the issue of how you source your power, not such a big deal to me. I understand the trade-offs.

[mistermojorizin]

i chose the procede lite pnp because of pnp, price, i don't want to mess around with it, and it would still be available with a LAG FIX. That would be so money!

[rdsport323]

Ok, here's another .02...

This is more marketing advice than anything, but, by making the Rev. 2 price that much cheaper than Rev. 1, you are basically killing off any sort of resale value for those that currently own the Rev. 1, and want to sell it down the future. The RACE version, in my opinion, basically sounds too good to be true for the price that you have it set at currently. If the RACE version PNP was priced at $1395 or so, the small discount would've been welcomed by a lot of people.

But since you have already posted a fairly ballparkish price on the RACE PNP, my suggestion would be to do what Sony did with the PS3. The 60gb PS3 was the most expensive at launch $599.. and had full backwards compatability. They lowered the price a few months later, and added more HD space *BUT* removed backwards compatibility completely. By doing that, they made the launch PS3's resale value a bit higher still since it is the only machine that can play all PS2 titles, and since they were short in supply, it would also make it a collectors item (in a way). I think it would make a lot of current Rev 1 owners happy if Rev 2 was smaller, but also lacked certain functions that would make people consider buying a Rev 1 for that feature. That would make Rev.1 kind of like a limited edition (sort of).

I probably don't make sense, and people will be pissed that I am trying to drive the prices up, but from a business perspective, that's what I would suggest. And it's great that you want everyone to have the ability to datalog and learn how their car works etc.. But, I still think $200 is too little of a price difference between the LITE/RACE.

[sambonator]

Originally Posted by rdsport323

Ok, ...by making the Rev. 2 price that much cheaper than Rev. 1, you are basically killing off any sort of resale value for those that currently own the Rev. 1, and want to sell it down the future. ...

Ummm... have you checked to see what used Procedes are going for nowadays?

[maui86]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Thanks for you (and everyone's) feedback. Keep it coming As for a exchange credit for Rev.I PROcede, that would be tough to do since the replacement product is less expensive. If the Rev.II was more expensive, we could easily work something out since there would always be a market for a used lower priced Rev. I unit. But I won't rule it out yet because it's still early in the game. But if we can't do that, i'll try to find another way to 'compensate' Rev. I users.

Shiv

i totally see your point...i was more so thinking something like send in the procede and harness, unless they are the same and pay 400-500(im just throwing out numbers just for an example, dont flame people! haha). im banking on it being worth the future features that plug into the harness(im praying, i mean PRAYING you take the 1000yrd leap to implementing a proper meth kit that works off the procede).

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The ground is coming from a power ground from one of the subconnectors. Rev.I guys can easily retrofit this to their current harnesses by just cutting the ground wire and tapping it into the correct wire (on the PnP harness). Easy.

We are not getting power from sensor power. There are a few 12 supplies from the factory harness that we have sucessfully tapped into. My only concern is when we start adding more hardware (add-on gauges, for instance) as we wouldn't want to create a scenario where we have unstable power. Depending on the next couple of weeks of testing, we may very well return to external power (like Rev.I) if we feel that sharing ECU power will compromise stability or diagnostic invisbility. Frankly, I'm a lot more comfortable with getting power from the high current source that we get it from now. The only reason we are tesing internal power options is for user convenience. But to me, it's a compromise.

im not an electrical engineer nor do i know in depth how everything works in a technical aspect, but if you are worried that tapping power off the harness may compromise structural integrity of the cars ECU or procede and its future add-ons performance then i say screw it. the power/ground takes literally a minute to do and could even show a blond how to do it.

can't wait to see in the end what you can offer...till then, i'll be having fun with my current v3

[JoeyFiasco]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Any system that drives two 15ohm 14v solenoids at 40-50% steady state with peaks up to 90% isn't exactly low current. Ohm's law will prove that. Yes, we can get 12v from a few pins ECU harness. But I'm not convinced that doing is good engineering. If that makes us noncompetitive in the eyes of some customers, there's nothing I can do about that. I think that if someone can't extract one large pin for a solid 12v source, then they probably would have a hard time exposing their ECU in the first place.

I'm also looking down the road a bit when we add on various devices that will simply plug into the PnP harness. Only so much juice you can rob for the ECU harness without causing potential issues.

Shiv

That seems like a completely justifiable reason. Thanks for thinking ahead

Couldn't you also just make the harness tap into the steady 12v you mentioned before as a diy on this thread?

[JOe335i]

yea i agree with everyone that for a couple hundred dollars more the RACE PNP is by far the best option since you get the full package without compromise as Shiv explained in detail what those are and how they can benefit the end user. hence the poll and explanation from the members. User adjustablilty,firmware updates, map switching via remote, these are features that has raised the PROcede to the next level without it people are gonna be missing out BIG TIME!
p.s. do not risk diagnostic invisibility for the power tap just make it outside the unit.

One thing that is very alraming, taken from another member concerns, that those that just bought the V3 pNP a few months ago or recently is still practically a NEW tune.
People payed 1600 bucks or more for a package with relays,resistors,grounds,power taps and such, with a bigger UNIT, almost twice the size. they payed 1600 bucks for a unit.platform that is a bunch of old hardware that is obsolete now!
NOW, a new version has come out months later that is much smaller. No realys.resistors.gounds.power tap. and is over 600 bucks cheaper?
i must say the owners must be furious.
Plus the resale value of thos V3 just went out the window!!!!!!!

ill ask these questions again.
what is the status on full credit upgrades for proede owners? if something comes out new in the future that is more expensive do you give full credit towards that product for existing owners of the old platform?
what is the return policy on the PROcede's?
will V3 PNP owners get full credit to trade there units in for the new cheaper RACE PNP?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by JOe335i

One thing that is very alraming, taken from another member concerns, that those that just bought the V3 pNP a few months ago or recently is still practically a NEW tune.
People payed 1600 bucks or more for a package with relays,resistors,grounds,power taps and such, with a bigger UNIT, almost twice the size. they payed 1600 bucks for a unit.platform that is a bunch of old hardware that is obsolete now!
NOW, a new version has come out months later that is much smaller. No realys.resistors.gounds.power tap. and is over 600 bucks cheaper?
i must say the owners must be furious.
Plus the resale value of thos V3 just went out the window!!!!!!!

I don't know why you keep saying $1600 when Rev.I was priced at $1495. Also, while it's unfortunate that resale of any used tuning box will take more of a hit, our goal has always been functionality and flexibility. Today, for instance, I'm releasing another firmware update in response to customers who wanted:

- 'Current map selection' to read 0 when in valet mode
- To disable the speed limit component of the valet mode when induced by overboost/over-DC triggering.

We had this update done and complete within 3-4 days of the initial suggestions which should reveal something about our product goals. If resale value is a big priority, it's probably not a good idea to invest in technology items. Go for real estate instead. Ehh... on second thought, scratch that

ll ask these questions again.
what is the status on full credit upgrades for proede owners? if something comes out new in the future that is more expensive do you give full credit towards that product for existing owners of the old platform?
what is the return policy on the PROcede's?
will V3 PNP owners get full credit to trade there units in for the new cheaper RACE PNP?

I've already addressed the credit concern earlier in this thread. Nothing established yet. However, there are no plans for a more expensive unit. If anything, prices will continue to drop as time goes by. Also, we did not sell $5 worth of resistors for $300+ in the first place so the model that you are accustomed is not feasible.

Shiv

[sd390r]

really random question here... would the race pnp (or does the current v3) have o2 sims built in for the CELs from my DPs?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by sd390r

really random question here... would the race pnp (or does the current v3) have o2 sims built in for the CELs from my DPs?

While the old v3s had this feature, the current v3 doesn't for a couple of reasons. One of them being that we used up that analog input for fuel pressure control. So the solution is to wire up a couple of resistors (DIY info posted a couple months ago) in the PNP harness. Costs about $2 and takes 5min. The Rev.II procede has more I/O so it is possible to bring back the software-based approach. But no immediate plans on that.

Shiv

[e.n335]

I have an ECU-flash but if I would choose for a PROcede I would take option 1. Same or better functionality as the current PROcede V3.n, smaller, more optimized harness, < 1000 bucks . However, I would replace the current RS-232 by a native wireless LAN on-board interface, designing the device.

- Eugen

[sd390r]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

While the old v3s had this feature, the current v3 doesn't for a couple of reasons. One of them being that we used up that analog input for fuel pressure control. So the solution is to wire up a couple of resistors (DIY info posted a couple months ago) in the PNP harness. Costs about $2 and takes 5min. The Rev.II procede has more I/O so it is possible to bring back the software-based approach. But no immediate plans on that.

Shiv

hmm id think itd be a good idea if you did..

could have an all-in-1 solution for basically everything LOL

[JOe335i]

Thanks for the responses Shiv.

So NO returns, maybe/somewhat of a deal on existing customer for credit towards something in the future. but since nothing will be more expensive, you will have to trade in and some $$?

And those who bought the V3 PNP within the last few months thinking they got the best new product, just werent thinking straight about technology and now they just lost around 520 bucks and got more uncessary stuff with the V3, i guess there just out of luck.

just concerns of mine, since im gonna go with the RACE PNP anyways, but i dont wanna get bent over at the end and regret it, please a grand for just what was 1500+ is a bargain!! in my book. good to see tunes get affordable