[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Actually, I'm going to ask Terry to participate as well. And anyone else is welcome to participate/watch. I don't think anyone would would question if all the tuners were present (included someone from GIAC). And my plan to use the same car on the same tank of gas in idential testing conditions (with full data logging) should be ideal from everyone's point of view.

It will rule out the inevitable accusations of sampling bias, driver's skill variance and transmission differences.

shiv

Sounds like a great idea.
Are you going to wait for the GIAC stage 2 to come out or are you going to compare your stage 1 Procede to the GIAC stage 1?
Also, if you are getting all of the tuners involved then maybe you should get a consensus of what to log.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by fotios335i

seems like an objective and fair comparison. really looking forward to it...when might this go down?

There is a local board member that has a GIAC flash. He may be flashing it back to stock within the next few days. It would be a good opportunity to test the GIAC flash right before that happens. And then immediately test the other two tunes. I'll have to ask him first of course. But he, like everyone else, just wants the best tune for his car.

Realistically, the test will probably cover a two day span of time do to the logistics of having to take the car back to the GIAC dealer in order to flash it back to stock. So GIAC test on day 1. JB3 and PROcede test on day two. With a little bit of planning, we can certainly find a nice two day period where ambient temps are similar if not identical. We do live in CA afterall.

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

Sounds like a great idea.
Are you going to wait for the GIAC stage 2 to come out or are you going to compare your stage 1 Procede to the GIAC stage 1?

Since we are going to be testing it on a completely stock 6MT 335, we will be testing Stg 1 to Stg 1. And whatever map BMS recommends for their JB3 (map3? 5?)

Shiv

[Sniz]

good stuff, and yeah, that was an ass whooping. Given the psi run on each car its expected.

[cn555ic]

There had to be something wrong with the Procede car from this thread because it shows such conflicting results from these videos........http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296811

[stressdoc]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

This statement is another ridiculous quote.
Do you think we paid off the procede user or something?

I'd like to ask the OP about what settings the V3 was on.
Cool vids guys.
Since you were using 94 octane, what were the settings?

Just pointing out that there are two ways to read Shiv's statement. A normal (and kindly) read of "more independent" is that Shiv is happy to see additional tests. More = more tests, not a test that is less biased.

Everyone needs to take a deep breath and do their best to be friendly here. These are great times to be a 335 owner.

[adrian@vishnu]

I just wanted to add that you GIAC guys seem to think that because Stage 1 is perceived to be very good, that stage 2 and 3.... will be much much better. Did anyone stop to think that perhaps GIAC have tuned stage 1 to a higher level than other tuners, and now have less room to move for higher stages? I am predicting that the stage 2 and 3 GIACs will not show the same improvements over stage 1 as the other tunes. I suspect the stage 1 tune is more like stage 2 for other tuners.

The first video showed that the GIAC was walked all over at low RPM and much closer at high RPM. I suspect that this is because the higher stages can work well at low RPM when the turbos are not out of puff, but at higher RPM, the GIAC is hitting the limits of the turbo as is the higher stage Procede, so they make similar high end power. I am predicting the higher GIAC stages will fill lout the bottom end a bit better, but I doubt they will make any more up top. There is simply not turbo flow to make big gains there.

This is the nature of tuning cars with stock turbos. I have seen it on many platforms. There is a tune level that provides the max top end with linear power in the bottom end, and then going beyond that just increases bottom end. The tuner would love to increase the top as much as the bottom end, but that is not possible with small turbos.

Clearly the Procede in the Mr 5 video is not representative of most Procedes (given the JB in the same video). This happens for all tunes. Some JB cars dissappoint. Some Procede cars dissappoint... and as time moves on, some GIAC cars will dissappoint. For some reason some cars just do not respond as well as the average... perhaps they have problems like boost leaks... who knows, but these outlying cases should be removed from the comparison as they are skewing the data to be inaccurate. It is safe to assume that an average Procede and average JB are quite similar, and the JB was all over the GIAC in that video.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

I just wanted to add that you GIAC guys seem to think that because Stage 1 is perceived to be very good, that stage 2 and 3.... will be much much better. Did anyone stop to think that perhaps GIAC have tuned stage 1 to a higher level than other tuners, and now have less room to move for higher stages? I am predicting that the stage 2 and 3 GIACs will not show the same improvements over stage 1 as the other tunes. I suspect the stage 1 tune is more like stage 2 for other tuners.

The first video showed that the GIAC was walked all over at low RPM and much closer at high RPM. I suspect that this is because the higher stages can work well at low RPM when the turbos are not out of puff, but at higher RPM, the GIAC is hitting the limits of the turbo as is the higher stage Procede, so they make similar high end power. I am predicting the higher GIAC stages will fill lout the bottom end a bit better, but I doubt they will make any more up top. There is simply not turbo flow to make big gains there.

This is the nature of tuning cars with stock turbos. I have seen it on many platforms. There is a tune level that provides the max top end with linear power in the bottom end, and then going beyond that just increases bottom end. The tuner would love to increase the top as much as the bottom end, but that is not possible with small turbos.

Clearly the Procede in the Mr 5 video is not representative of most Procedes (given the JB in the same video). This happens for all tunes. Some JB cars dissappoint. Some Procede cars dissappoint... and as time moves on, some GIAC cars will dissappoint. For some reason some cars just do not respond as well as the average... perhaps they have problems like boost leaks... who knows, but these outlying cases should be removed from the comparison as they are skewing the data to be inaccurate. It is safe to assume that an average Procede and average JB are quite similar, and the JB was all over the GIAC in that video.

good post, once again.


curious to see if your predictions on the GIAC stages come true.

[cocoturkey]

speaking of "independant videos", I have V3 RevII Stage 3 (AA IC + AR Catless DPs + ams exhaust system) and raced from 60km to 250 with a GIAC stage 1 (with similar mods) last week... I won the race by 4+ cars.... If anyone's interested, I'll post the video up later today.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by cocoturkey

speaking of "independant videos", I have V3 RevII Stage 3 and raced from 60km to 250 with a GIAC stage 1 (with similar mods) last week... I won the race by 4+ cars.... If anyone's interested, I'll post the video up later today.

yeah post it up!!

sounds like the same outcome as this video

[Kelvin1000]

Once GIAC Stage 2 comes out and if this comparison that Shiv is talking about ever takes place, you will see that if you run the same amount of boost and you have three good tuners (as is the case here), then the results are going to be extremely consistent and very similar to each other.

My guess is that it comes down to other non-performance intangibles such as pricing, flexibility, extra features, customer service and most importantly... YOUR PREFERENCE.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by cocoturkey

speaking of "independant videos", I have V3 RevII Stage 3 (AA IC + AR Catless DPs + ams exhaust system) and raced from 60km to 250 with a GIAC stage 1 (with similar mods) last week... I won the race by 4+ cars.... If anyone's interested, I'll post the video up later today.

Yes please post it up. Just make another thread if you can. And the results are to be expected after the recent testing I've done with the GIAC.

Shiv

[FotiosF90M5]

Originally Posted by Kelvin1000

Once GIAC Stage 2 comes out and if this comparison that Shiv is talking about ever takes place, you will see that if you run the same amount of boost and you have three good tuners (as is the case here), then the results are going to be extremely consistent and very similar to each other.

My guess is that it comes down to other non-performance intangibles such as pricing, flexibility, extra features, customer service and most importantly... YOUR PREFERENCE.

well said.

[cn555ic]

In Mr5 video...the driver of the Procede car stated driver error, but even with him mis-shifting with the steptronic, there is no way he gets blown out like that....there has to be something wrong with his setup.....

[jippii ensio]

Enrico was a lot faster w/JB3 than w/ Giac stage1. That is because Giac stage1 is way too mild for the stage3 car running Swedish premium high octane which is 94-95 oct US. On 91 oct Giac stg1 was more competitive. Looking forward to higher Giac stages.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by jippii ensio

Enrico was a lot faster w/JB3 than w/ Giac stage1. That is because Giac stage1 is way too mild for the stage3 car running Swedish premium high octane which is 94-95 oct US. On 91 oct Giac stg1 was more competitive. Looking forward to higher Giac stages.

did u just say his car is slower because his gas is too good? or did you mean the procede stage III benefitted more than the GIAC? His car was much faster before because he was running a few more pounds of boost.

[jippii ensio]

Originally Posted by Sniz

did u just say his car is slower because his gas is too good? or did you mean the procede stage III benefitted more than the GIAC? His car was much faster before because he was running a few more pounds of boost.

You can have a lot more aggressive tune with high octane in cold north than piss octane in hot Cali. So stage1 does well in Cali, but is not up to it in Sweden.

I did not say anything about Procede, because it is a different car and we don't know how Big Tom would run with another tune. But based on the videos pre/post flashing we can say that Enrico's car was faster w/Jb3 than w/Giac. That is because JB3 has maps available already that are aggressive enough for his mods & octane. Giac stage2 will make his car a lot quicker than stg1.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by jippii ensio

You can have a lot more aggressive tune with high octane in cold north than piss octane in hot Cali. So stage1 does well in Cali, but is not up to it in Sweden.

I did not say anything about Procede, because it is a different car and we don't know how Big Tom would run with another tune. But based on the videos pre/post flashing we can say that Enrico's car was faster w/Jb3 than w/Giac. That is because JB3 has maps available already that are aggressive enough for his mods & octane. Giac stage2 will make his car a lot quicker than stg1.

yes because it will run more boost.

[jpsimon]

this is much more like it! nice video

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

I just wanted to add that you GIAC guys seem to think that because Stage 1 is perceived to be very good, that stage 2 and 3.... will be much much better. Did anyone stop to think that perhaps GIAC have tuned stage 1 to a higher level than other tuners, and now have less room to move for higher stages? I am predicting that the stage 2 and 3 GIACs will not show the same improvements over stage 1 as the other tunes. I suspect the stage 1 tune is more like stage 2 for other tuners.

You do have a valid point, but I guess will just have to wait and find out.
I don't understand how GIAC stage 1 could be considered to be a "higher level" if they have peak psi of 13.6 psi.
The white car in the video I posted is the red curve in the dyno comparison. The boost might be reading a little high on the red line but the power and torque is correct.

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

The first video showed that the GIAC was walked all over at low RPM and much closer at high RPM. I suspect that this is because the higher stages can work well at low RPM when the turbos are not out of puff, but at higher RPM, the GIAC is hitting the limits of the turbo as is the higher stage Procede, so they make similar high end power. I am predicting the higher GIAC stages will fill lout the bottom end a bit better, but I doubt they will make any more up top. There is simply not turbo flow to make big gains there.

The only reason why I believe that the GIAC pops out ahead is due to the throttle responce. The peak torque doesn't happen until later in the RPM band.

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

Clearly the Procede in the Mr 5 video is not representative of most Procedes (given the JB in the same video). This happens for all tunes. Some JB cars dissappoint. Some Procede cars dissappoint... and as time moves on, some GIAC cars will dissappoint. For some reason some cars just do not respond as well as the average... perhaps they have problems like boost leaks... who knows, but these outlying cases should be removed from the comparison as they are skewing the data to be inaccurate. It is safe to assume that an average Procede and average JB are quite similar, and the JB was all over the GIAC in that video.

I agree. I had a Procede for a while and I liked the power delivery, and I know that we all have bad days. The tuning test should be very interesting.
It's one of those things right? People say that dynos aren't the entire story.
Then when videos come out, then people start asking about driver error or question the validity of the gas.

I'm thinking also that with the piggies there are so many questions that come afterwards. For example:

JB3--what version? What map?
Procede--What version? What stage? What are the settings?
GIAC is going to have 3 stages for the stock turbos. 1,2 and 2+.
IMO, there's a good possibility that the car in this video was running much higher settings than the White car in the other vid.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

You do have a valid point, but I guess will just have to wait and find out.
I don't understand how GIAC stage 1 could be considered to be a "higher level" if they have peak psi of 13.6 psi.

I have multiple BT logs showing a GIAC car (otherwise stock) running 1.965 bar of absolute pressure with atmos reading of .960 bar. So just a little over a 1bar (~14.5-14.6psi) of boost. This is during a 4th gear pull in ~95F ambient temp conditions. And it has very little top end taper by redline. Not sure how much more aggressive it can get up top.

Haven't we established that your boost curve comparisons between the various tunes are potentially flawed due to possible dyno mis-calibration?

Shiv

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I have multiple BT logs showing a GIAC car (otherwise stock) running 1.965 bar of absolute pressure with atmos reading of .960 bar. So just a little over a 1bar (~14.5-14.6psi) of boost. This is during a 4th gear pull in ~95F ambient temp conditions. And it has very little top end taper by redline. Not sure how much more aggressive it can get up top.

Haven't we established that your boost curve comparisons between the various tunes are potentially flawed due to possible dyno mis-calibration?

Shiv

Where was the reading taken from when you took this reading?

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Haven't we established that your boost curve comparisons between the various tunes are potentially flawed due to possible dyno mis-calibration?

Shiv

Did you not see this comment?

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

The boost might be reading a little high on the red line but the power and torque is correct.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

Where was the reading taken from when you took this reading?

The only place where you can read both ambient pressure and absolute pressure: Pressure in front of throttle body aka TMAP. I also logged Wastegate DC 1&2, Intake cam timing, exhaust cam timing and actual throttle value.

Just checked the results of the last log. Ambient pressure was 0.99 bar. Max Absolute pressure was 2.041. So we actually saw over 15psi peak.

Did you not see this comment?

No, I did not not see that comment

Shiv