[PhilL]

Cheers I did a search beforehand on suggested pressures which led me to 35/38, but I'll try increasing them to 38/41 tonight

[Yahoo]

Jay6t9 - I did notice some roll on the Vredesteins compared to the rfts - but not much. I guess this is inevitable with a more compliant tyre.

PhilL - I had done a lot of research on the Falken 452 before ordering my Eagle F1s. This is a great tyre for the price, but there are some comments regarding how the tyre is prone to rolling on initial turnin - a characteristic of the tyre it would seem. This could be due to the curved sidewall. Upping the pressures will help out a lot though.

[PhilL]

Originally Posted by Yahoo

Jay6t9 - I did notice some roll on the Vredesteins compared to the rfts - but not much. I guess this is inevitable with a more compliant tyre.

PhilL - I had done a lot of research on the Falken 452 before ordering my Eagle F1s. This is a great tyre for the price, but there are some comments regarding how the tyre is prone to rolling on initial turnin - a characteristic of the tyre it would seem. This could be due to the curved sidewall. Upping the pressures will help out a lot though.

Thanks, very interesting and confirms my thoughts. I'll get a bit more air in them tonight!

[flip4335]

Originally Posted by PhilL

Thanks, very interesting and confirms my thoughts. I'll get a bit more air in them tonight!

+1 on more air. I bought a set of non-RFT Hankook Ventus12s for my e90 335i, which replaced my Brickstone RFTs. The suggested tire pressure for speeds up to and beyond 100 mph were 39psi fronts and 45psi rears. Afterwards, the handling improved remarkably. I recall traveling around Islip, Peterborough, and Cambridge nine years ago, especially the back roads and roundabouts. You needed properly inflated tires, then.

[Ant Man]

Doughboy / E92Fan. One thing I do not understand is the price of the Hartge ARB compared to the H&R ARB. Both are the same size and made by H&R but the latter can be bought for £270 a pair. Are Birds just expensive or is their something extra with the Hartge ARB that justifies the £200 difference?

Yahoo, the eibach prokit springs are very similar stiffness wise to the Msport springs. Take a look at the US section for all the comparisions. Koni do not recommend the FSD with the Eibach prokit due to the shorter length of the springs. Instead they recommend the yellows and Eibach also say this is a good match. Koni do net yet produce a matched set of springs and dampers for the E92.

The bilstein springs are so stiff, (on the US section) I do not recall exactly but I believe they are almost twice as stiff as the Msport springs. I cannot see how they will work on UK roads. Great for the track though.

[doughboy]

Originally Posted by Ant Man

Doughboy / E92Fan. One thing I do not understand is the price of the Hartge ARB compared to the H&R ARB. Both are the same size and made by H&R but the latter can be bought for £270 a pair. Are Birds just expensive or is their something extra with the Hartge ARB that justifies the £200 difference?

I'm sure tony will have some words........

The Hartge stuff is pricey IMO, but I take comfort from the fact they are tried and tested on BMWs. If Hartge spent all the R&D money, then H&R just release a set to the same dimensions, then good luck to them I'd say. Hartge make fully approved complete car conversions (M5 V10 in a E90!) so they know about complete vehicle design, not just making accessories.

The Hartge products are TUV approved for aftermarket fitment to cars in Germany, which is very onerous and takes the full scope of vehicle reliability and useage into account. and I believe in Germany the Hartge gear maintains the BMW warranty.

This doesn't help in the UK, but to me it shows they are a quality part.

Unless I could find a competent review of the H&R bars, I wouldn't buy them as they might well not be what I was after, even with 'the same' dimensions they could be made of different spec metal.

£200 is not a lot when you risk having them fitted and then realising you don't like them.

But go for the H&R if you feel confident about them.

[Yahoo]

Originally Posted by Ant Man

Yahoo, the eibach prokit springs are very similar stiffness wise to the Msport springs. Take a look at the US section for all the comparisions. Koni do not recommend the FSD with the Eibach prokit due to the shorter length of the springs. Instead they recommend the yellows and Eibach also say this is a good match. Koni do net yet produce a matched set of springs and dampers for the E92.

I have heard that Koni don't recommend the FSD with Eibach Pro - but I recieved an email from Koni UK saying that the FSD would match up OK. There are many reviews that say the FSD match well with the Pro kit, so I think it'll be OK.

I want to even the front end / rear end drop on my car, retain similar levels of comfort, improve damping and reduce roll. I am pretty confident that I will achieve this with the setup I have gone for, but ultimately I will only find out once it has all been installed. I won't be doing any track days and don't need ultimate handling at the expense of comfort - this is what the Koni yellows could have done - FSDs are renowned for matching Koni yellows until pushed really hard and so should be OK.

As the Eibach drop is pretty minimal (20mm front and 0mm rear), I think the FSDs will be fine. If I had gone for H&R sports this would be a different matter though.

[fastloop]

Originally Posted by doughboy

I'm sure tony will have some words........

The Hartge stuff is pricey IMO, but I take comfort from the fact they are tried and tested on BMWs. If Hartge spent all the R&D money, then H&R just release a set to the same dimensions, then good luck to them I'd say. Hartge make fully approved complete car conversions (M5 V10 in a E90!) so they know about complete vehicle design, not just making accessories.

The Hartge products are TUV approved for aftermarket fitment to cars in Germany, which is very onerous and takes the full scope of vehicle reliability and useage into account. and I believe in Germany the Hartge gear maintains the BMW warranty.

This doesn't help in the UK, but to me it shows they are a quality part.

Unless I could find a competent review of the H&R bars, I wouldn't buy them as they might well not be what I was after, even with 'the same' dimensions they could be made of different spec metal.

£200 is not a lot when you risk having them fitted and then realising you don't like them.

But go for the H&R if you feel confident about them.

+1

I'm sure I saw some postings somewhere on here that the Hartge and the H&R bars are not the same, but I can't find the post at the moment.

To be honest, yes they are a bit more expensive and you may be able to save a few quid, but I didn't wan't to take the chance and get stuck with a pair of bars that wasn't what I was looking for.

Also the rear bar is a pain to get in and you may have to drop the rear subframe to change it, so is it really worth a few hundreds to take the chance?

One thing I would say is that the Hartge bar on it's own without an LSD may make the rear a bit more loose without anyway to control it on the throttle. Perhaps a slightly thinner bar on the rear may be prefered here if you are not doing the LSD? Maybe others who have done this can comment on this?

[Ant Man]

Originally Posted by Yahoo

I have heard that Koni don't recommend the FSD with Eibach Pro - but I recieved an email from Koni UK saying that the FSD would match up OK. There are many reviews that say the FSD match well with the Pro kit, so I think it'll be OK.

I want to even the front end / rear end drop on my car, retain similar levels of comfort, improve damping and reduce roll. I am pretty confident that I will achieve this with the setup I have gone for, but ultimately I will only find out once it has all been installed. I won't be doing any track days and don't need ultimate handling at the expense of comfort - this is what the Koni yellows could have done - FSDs are renowned for matching Koni yellows until pushed really hard and so should be OK.

As the Eibach drop is pretty minimal (20mm front and 0mm rear), I think the FSDs will be fine. If I had gone for H&R sports this would be a different matter though.

I believe the drop is 35mm / 25mm, front to back compared to SE springs. Msport springs are 10mm shorter so the drop is 25mm / 15mm but the matching to shocks is compared to SE springs. I have a mail from Koni UK too but instead not advising FSD

It will be good to read your write up once all fitted and you've driven enthusiastically along a bumpy, twisty B-road

[Ant Man]

Originally Posted by 335rocks

+1

I'm sure I saw some postings somewhere on here that the Hartge and the H&R bars are not the same, but I can't find the post at the moment.

To be honest, yes they are a bit more expensive and you may be able to save a few quid, but I didn't wan't to take the chance and get stuck with a pair of bars that wasn't what I was looking for.

Also the rear bar is a pain to get in and you may have to drop the rear subframe to change it, so is it really worth a few hundreds to take the chance?

One thing I would say is that the Hartge bar on it's own without an LSD may make the rear a bit more loose without anyway to control it on the throttle. Perhaps a slightly thinner bar on the rear may be prefered here if you are not doing the LSD? Maybe others who have done this can comment on this?

Lars, this was myself and E92Fan discussing on his ARB post. The linkages were different.

I take your point about Hartge's reputation and quality of conversions.
Teddy (SSDD) could probably do a very good deal for the ARB so maybe the difference will not be so big.

Oh! I definately want a LSD

Carlos just needs to buy my current car in March next year.

[Dave_3]

Quick question : are the ARBs standard black coated - not the yellow or red I have seen ?

D.

[doughboy]

Originally Posted by Dave_3

Quick question : are the ARBs standard black coated - not the yellow or red I have seen ?

D.

I asked that also before buying them,

The Hartge ARBs are sort of dark grey satin hammerite finish, fairly non descript.

Not black like the oem, but a few thousand miles under a car turns everything the same shade of grey!

[Dave_3]

Thanks.

I'd just like to avoid any imperial entanglements ... so would need oem look.

D.

[marconi118]

on the front suspension do you advice to use only the Tension Strut M3 (14 on the plan) or add the M3 wishbone (19 on the plan) ?

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by marconi118

on the front suspension do you advice to use only the Tension Strut M3 (14 on the plan) or add the M3 wishbone (19 on the plan) ?

Definitely do both, as they work together to sharpen up the front end response. However you will need to get the wheels realigned as you will have added more negative camber when changing over to M3 wishbones.

[Dave_3]

Doughboy,

How are you finding your new setup now you have had time to become accustomed to it ? Interesting to hear your feedback.

Do the rear bushes and ARBs mean that it is now more easily diverted by road cambers, as the previous absorption is removed - is it just as easy to drive as previously ? I presume the steering feel must be more direct ... slightly distant and clearly setup for understeer as standard.

D.

[doughboy]

The rear bushes have really dictated the removal of runflats. I planned to do that straight away, but not got round to it yet. You can really fell the rear end thumping over cats eyes etc as the M3 bushes are for non-rfts only and thus need the extra absorbtion from standard sidewalls.

There is no noticable change in tramlining (i think that is what you meant?), I think this is because the geometry / wheel alignment or tyres have not been changed with this mod.

It is easier and less effort to drive quickly than before as you are not battling with excessive roll-before-turn in, or roll-during-direction-change to anywhere near the same extent.

The rear steer capabilities only really come in when accelerating, on a neutral or trailing throttle the changes are much less noticable.

Now its easy to find you are reducing the steering angle whilst maintaining the same turning circle when exiting large roundabouts or similar bends in 2nd (2nd gear has plenty of torque, but the speeds are sensible for novices like me)

I'm hoping to try it all out properly at Oulton Park on the 4th November...

[fastloop]

Originally Posted by doughboy

The rear bushes have really dictated the removal of runflats. I planned to do that straight away, but not got round to it yet. You can really fell the rear end thumping over cats eyes etc as the M3 bushes are for non-rfts only and thus need the extra absorbtion from standard sidewalls.

There is no noticable change in tramlining (i think that is what you meant?), I think this is because the geometry / wheel alignment or tyres have not been changed with this mod.

It is easier and less effort to drive quickly than before as you are not battling with excessive roll-before-turn in, or roll-during-direction-change to anywhere near the same extent.

The rear steer capabilities only really come in when accelerating, on a neutral or trailing throttle the changes are much less noticable.

Now its easy to find you are reducing the steering angle whilst maintaining the same turning circle when exiting large roundabouts or similar bends in 2nd (2nd gear has plenty of torque, but the speeds are sensible for novices like me)

I'm hoping to try it all out properly at Oulton Park on the 4th November...

I found the Bridgestones pretty horrible with the standard suspension, so I can only imagine that the bushes and ARBs will make the rear even more skittish. The move to non-RFTs on std suspension may make it a tiny bit on the soft side and slight lean during hard corning, but I would take this anytime over the RFTs. With the non-RFTs, ARBs, rear bush set and LSD the entire package really comes to it's right and totally transforms the car. The suspension fells completely changed and the everything is so much tighter and nicer to drive. You can fell what the car is doing at all times and you have so much more control over the rear with the throttle.

I would actually say that tramlining has improved slightly and driving over speed bumps is quite a different positive experience. The heavy thumping with the slack in the rear bushes and the stiffer ARBs makes the car float more over the bumps in a nice up/down movement. I suspect this is because the ARBs and bushes causes the entire car to rise up rather than side ways movement in the suspension.

Have a look at how much slop there is in the standard bushes. The top and buttom are connected by a huge gap.


This would explain the slight loose/light rear end under heavy braking and wallowing when changing directions. I can't believe the huge a difference that changing the rear bush set has done to the car. It may seems like a small change but the results are amazing. The car feels super sharp now and very settled under heavy braking.

[Ant Man]

Doughboy, what was the cost of the bushes, ARB and LSD fitted? And can you break down the prices individually too? Thanks.

[fastloop]

Originally Posted by Ant Man

Doughboy, what was the cost of the bushes, ARB and LSD fitted? And can you break down the prices individually too? Thanks.

Have a look at Birds site and you'll get at rough estimate of the individual parts and install costs.

If you install all 3 you should be able to save a bit of time on the install as the removal of certain parts may already have been done. E.g. to install the rear ARB you'll need to drop the rear subframe, so you save this cost when you do the rear bush set etc. So it really depends on what you do.

By far the most labour went into fitting the rear bush set, however it was well worth it!

[Yahoo]

You can simply consult with your local dealer re prices. I have attached a PDF document listing all of the part numbers you need - you should expect to be able to manage 10% discount off the RRP for each of these parts, this is the discount margin avialable from BMW on these items (so I was told). I have not installd mine yet, but they are in the garage waiting for me to get around to it. Off the top of my head I think I paid £260 ish for the front and rear sways & parts and £95 for the sub frame bushes.

[fastloop]

I would not attempt to do the bushes myself unless you know what you are doing and have access to a ramp, transmission jack stand and specialized tools. To extract and install the rear bushes requires a bush set extractor, heat and lubrication. You'll also need a good deal of patience to install the new ones again. They are quite tricky to get in again - definitely not a smack it with a hammer job.

To drop the subframe you'll need to remove the exhaust, disconnect the rear brake lines and possible remove the drive shaft so it's not your average job to do on your driveway. I hope this gives you an idea that there is little bit more to it than just "quickly" swapping out some bushes. So the price of the 4 bushes is the least of the problem.