[rightnow]

If it runs better, safer, better fuel economy, more HP, more torque.. Why wouldnt BMW have done this in the beggining? Because its bad for the engine? Sorry, but i find it hard to believe that BMW engineers are worse than tune professionals.

[Dustin Bramell]

It's tough to say. Traditionally, V8 motors aren't high/free reving motors like smaller displacement turbo motors. However, times are changing. Take the RS4 for example; it's a v8, but it is well made and revs to 8k.

With that said, turbo motors always have more potential from a tuning standpoint. They are designed to withstand heat, boost, and just downright abuse. Furthermore, OEMs leave a lot on the table with turbo cars, because they can. Generally this happens because the engineering department over-engineers (because thats what engineers do ), but then the marketing department kills the their dreams by saying "this car only needs to make 300hp." And the marketing department has the final word on most things. What you end up with is a motor that was designed to make 450hp, but leaves the factory tuned only to make 300hp. Which is where we step in...

Don't get me wrong the new M3 will be great...but the price most likely won't warrant the extra bells and whistles.


*Edit* Rightnow I think I was typing the answer to your question as you were typing the question itself.

Originally Posted by lux.sh

oh wow. dustin that is just amazing to hear.

I have a quick question. Since you guys are the tuning experts, from a tuning standpoint, would you say 335's TT motor is better to begin with(price to power output) or the new upcoming M3 V8? Obviously turbocharging the V8 is sweet, but that'll cost $$$$$. What is your insight on this?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by rightnow

If it runs better, safer, better fuel economy, more HP, more torque.. Why wouldnt BMW have done this in the beggining? Because its bad for the engine? Sorry, but i find it hard to believe that BMW engineers are worse than tune professionals.

Making power wasn't a challenge for the BMW engineers. Doing that is fairly acedemic. There is nothing special about spitting out 100hp/liter in a turbocharged application. The challenge they, and every other manufacturer, are faced with was fuel consumption and ever-tightening emissions regulations. This is why they ran the car at stoich under boost and not at 12:1. Yes, the stock car will get better fuel economy under boosted conditions than a tuned car. After all, it is making less power and using up less gas by running much leaner. But I suspect most customers are going to be able to live with a couple less mpgs under boosted conditions when the upside is 75lb-ft more torque. Unfortunately, this was a tradeoff that BMW wasn't allowed to make for a number of reasons (fuel consumption targets, M3 canibalizing, emissions standards, etc,.) Fortunately, folks like us operate on a different set of constraints.

-shiv

PS. Good God Dustin! Look at the time. Don't you have work tomorrow?

[rightnow]

Okey guys! Thanks for the answers! I think i'm getting it now. BTW vishnu is only for US people right? Not for us in Europe?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by rightnow

Okey guys! Thanks for the answers! I think i'm getting it now. BTW vishnu is only for US people right? Not for us in Europe?

Coming to Europe to test fit and calibration isn't out of the question when it comes time to production and sales (still a couple of months away I'm guessing). Right now, we're still in our R&D stage. But I'll make any excuse to go to Europe and claim it as a business trip

-shiv

[lux.sh]

Thank you dustin and shiv.

This might be slightly off-topic, but today I just talked to a friend of mine who is a hardcore WRX enthusiast. He is very familiar with Vishnu, and local turbo specialist company like Perrin Performance or PDX tuning. I believe he had several Vishnu parts on his rally blue bug-eyed scooby. We had a quick talk and I mentioned how Vishnu is now involved with E9X tuning. He was surprised to find out that a Evo/WRX specialists got involved with BMW tuning. Is there a certain reason why you guys turned to BMWs? I assume its mainly because of the new turbo introduction to the BMW line up.

Just curious. I was well aware of Vishnu Tuning since few years back as a famous Evo/WRX tuning company, and always admired the work you guys have put into.

[fueledbymetal]

Originally Posted by lux.sh

Just curious. I was well aware of Vishnu Tuning since few years back as a famous Evo/WRX tuning company, and always admired the work you guys have put into.

They were a Miata tuning company prior to that. They probably just go were the exciting cars are

[txusa03]

are they doing this to give us 330 folks an opportunity to come close to the newer 335 horsepower

[sstarch1]

All this is supposed to be "warranty" safe, in that BMW will not be able to detect the presence, or the prvious presence of this ECU upgrade? Can you actually prove that?

[Jason]

Awesome read. You guys got lots of members here salivating

[txusa03]

Originally Posted by Jason

Awesome read. You guys got lots of members here salivating

actually, I am at the point of drowning in my own salivating matters

[kmurph]

Wow...this really has me thinking that my next car could be a 335...I'm still going to wait see what the new M3 brings.

The only thing that concerns me with the 335i is oil temp...I've already heard about some 335s overheating and shutting down when pushed hard. The oil temp was pegged at 300 after not even being pushed THAT hard. I like to take the car to the track occasionally and the 335i might not be able to handle it unless, maybe, an aftermarket oil cooler is added...

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by lux.sh

Thank you dustin and shiv.

This might be slightly off-topic, but today I just talked to a friend of mine who is a hardcore WRX enthusiast. He is very familiar with Vishnu, and local turbo specialist company like Perrin Performance or PDX tuning. I believe he had several Vishnu parts on his rally blue bug-eyed scooby. We had a quick talk and I mentioned how Vishnu is now involved with E9X tuning. He was surprised to find out that a Evo/WRX specialists got involved with BMW tuning. Is there a certain reason why you guys turned to BMWs? I assume its mainly because of the new turbo introduction to the BMW line up.

Just curious. I was well aware of Vishnu Tuning since few years back as a famous Evo/WRX tuning company, and always admired the work you guys have put into.

Thanks for the kind words. Why did we get into BMW tuning? To be honest, for no other reason than I simply purchased the car for myself. And being the self-gratifying bastard that I am, I needed to make it faster. I've always liked BMWs. The always did the things they were designed to do very well. The only thing I found missing on them was an powerful engines. It always seemed like they were lop-sided. A lot of chassis and brakes but not enough power. The 335i changed that. All of a sudden, there was a Bimmer that suited my personal needs. Of course, I come from the land of 400-600hp Evos and Subarus so my needs may not exactly be conventional.

are they doing this to give us 330 folks an opportunity to come close to the newer 335 horsepower

At this point, we don't have any plans for anything other than the 335i. We could certainly apply the same tuning effort to the 330 but, without the turbos, the returns are going to be much smaller. One day, if there is enough demand, we can certainly take a shot at it. But now, with so many projects on our plate, we can't commit to it.

All this is supposed to be "warranty" safe, in that BMW will not be able to detect the presence, or the prvious presence of this ECU upgrade? Can you actually prove that?

The Xede is not an ECU upgrade or a "chip". It's a entirely seperate computer that interfaces withi your engine wiring harness. It does not replace or modify the factory ECU in any way. In fact, the ECU doesn't even get unplugged when the Xede is installed. And yes, we have mapped the Xede so that the inputs and outputs the stock ECU sees are well within stock parameters. It does not see the revised AFR. It does not see the higher boost or the 3rd boost control solenoid. It does not see the tweaked ignition advance table. All the changes we induced are done through a nifty combination of sensor recalibrating and parallel control. The ECU is doing its usual thing with no knowledge of any such changes. I have gone to the dealership a number of times to get my ECU data pulled and nothing has showed up. We're very careful with this. This is the reason we didn't consider developing an ECU reflash for this car.

Cheers,
shiv
Vishnu Performance Systems

[petesamprs]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

It's a entirely seperate computer that interfaces withi your engine wiring harness.

...

The ECU is doing its usual thing with no knowledge of any such changes.

Can you explain this a bit more? I don't know much about how ECUs work but I'm curious how you are able to trick the ECU into thinking everything's stock when its not.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by petesamprs

Can you explain this a bit more? I don't know much about how ECUs work but I'm curious how you are able to trick the ECU into thinking everything's stock when its not.

Well that's the secret part, right?

J/k.. let's break down things a bit.

Boost Target: The factory ECU reads this by reading off a T-MAP sensor. The Xede intercepts that signal and adjusts it as a function of RPM and Load. Now the car sees a revised boost signal and dials the boost up or down to compensate. New targets are reached based upon the massaged T-MAP sensor response curve. ECU is happy. The stock ECU still controls all its atmospheric/temp/etc,. compensations.

Timing Changes: The factor ECU figures out when to fire the spark plug based upon crank position (in degrees) and a corresponding value in the timing map (function of engine load/T-MAP and RPM). We don't want to change the map in the ECU since that will be stored and logged. So we intercept the crank position sensor signal and shift it in time (either delay it or advance it). This time shift will make spark timing shift as well. The stock ECU does not know that we are doing this. And it is happy to go about doing what it suppsed to do. Furthermore, the stock knock control system still functions and ready to do its thing when conditions take a turn for the worse (bad tank of gas, super hot conditions, etc,.)

Fueling Changes: The stock computer delivers fuel based upon two things (actually more but these two are the major variables): The raw fuel map and AFR sensor signals. The raw fuel map looks at engine load/T-MAP (we we already modify.. hint hint) and RPM to determine where on the table the engine is operating at. At this point, it tells the fuel injectors to spit out X amount of fuel. Then it reads the data from constantly working wideband o2 sensors. The signals tell the computer if they need to add or subtract more fuel to achieve the desired AFR target. This constant feedback loop goes on and on and on. We dont want to change the actual mapping in the ECU. That would be evasive and easily loggable. Instead, the XEDE intercepts the wideband signals and adjusts them as a function of T-MAP and RPM. The new "adjusted" data is sent to the ECU and it makes the necessary enleanments/enrichments. The end result is that we get the fueling we want and the stock ECU is happy, thinking that it is doing its usual job. The stock ECU still controll all its long and short term adaptive fuel trims just like it would in a stock car.

Those are the basics. There's some other stuff invovled as well. But we can't disclose everything for obvious reasons For example, how do we make it so the closed loop fuel control corrections are instantaneous? Or why do we include a 3rd boost control solenoid to control boost? Or why do we recalibrate both MAP sensors and not just the one used to control fuel? The list goes on and on. But there are reasons for everything. I wouldn't want to mess up my own personal car, now would i?

Cheers,
shiv

[IraXI]

Just one question vishnu, when this Xede goes into production, if my lease ever has a problem and the Xede is removed before going to BMW will their be any traces or ways of them finding out? This is my one and only concerns. Thanks



Matt

[Robin_NL]

great.

can someone please explain the BHP gain in metric? From 306BHP to ...BHP @ ....rpm and from 400Nm @ 1300-5000rpm to ...Nm @ ...rpm.

Thank You

[undecided]

Wouldn't this 3rd solenoid be detectable by mechanics thus voiding the warranty? Can this be done as a purely software solution?


Thanks


Undecided

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by undecided

Wouldn't this 3rd solenoid be detectable by mechanics thus voiding the warranty? Can this be done as a purely software solution?

If you have a 10mm wrench handy, you can certainly unbolt it (and its little cute mount) from your engine bay in about 8 seconds. Increasing boost controller activity through the software will leave evidence of tapering. It would reach max allowable solenoid duty cycle and the ECU would say "hey... why do i have to run 99% duty cycle to hit those boost targets. Something must be wrong."

-shiv

[inTgr8r]

Great stuff Shiv...
Can't wait

[Ryan@Motorwerks]

So can the xede computer and 3rd solenoid be easily installed by an average joe?

[sstarch1]

I ask the above question aswell.

And what kind of timeline and price we're looking at? Couple of months? $1000, $2000? etc.