[ar design]

Originally Posted by dtp3347

Could that not also be caused by knock which could be instigated by the actual spray. I understand that that is unlikely as long as one of the conditions of spraying n2o is that you are also spraying meth but if the nitrous hit first for whatever reason it could knock severely and cause the intake manifold to burst right?

This is what I was thinking but would you not need DP's at a minimum ro reduce back pressure? I just feel like we already have a bottleneck at the DP's and adding nitrous would only make that problem worse.

Again these are just questions because as you know I am looking at nitrous aswell

While knock is bad, there is no way it is going to create pressure in the intake manifold... So, no. Knock occurs in the cylinder, not the intake manifold.

While DP are certainly a good idea with nitrous, I dont think you'd have a problem with a 35-50 shot.... Plenty of people run near 2x stock boost on stock DPs.... without issue.

[AltecBX]

Originally Posted by ar design

There is no reason you cannot spray a stock car, safely. Not sure why you would need X Y or Z modification to use nitrous?

Thanks for clarifying that; I'll look at Meth first, as I would need this first before Nitrous. Once I have Meth installed, i'll look at Nitrous. Is that a fair assumption?

[ar design]

Originally Posted by AltecBX

Thanks for clarifying that; I'll look at Meth first, as I would need this first before Nitrous. Once I have Meth installed, i'll look at Nitrous. Is that a fair assumption?

No need for methanol with nitrous.

[AltecBX]

WHAT! Why the **** where people saying to have meth spraying before nitrous. I always us 93 octane. I would preferably just use Nitrous and put in a DCI which is coming in by Sat.

MUCH THANKS

[scottp999]

Originally Posted by AltecBX

WHAT! Why the **** where people saying to have meth spraying before nitrous. I always us 93 octane. I would preferably just use Nitrous and put in a DCI which is coming in by Sat.

MUCH THANKS

This is part of the safety features that Shiv talked about in his thread for what he is developing for users of the procede. If I decided to run Nitrous I would use every saftey feature I could get:

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

So, the Procede, which fortunately can read heaps of CAN data, will only allow the nitrous trigger to arm when:

- Engine is within the allowable operating CAN oil temp range (170F to 250F).
- Applied throttle is 100%
- Actual CAN throttle is over 75%. This means that the nitrous will flicker off when the actual throttle closes due to boost targetting or traction control intervention. Just triggering off of applied throttle is useless since it does not always reflace actual throttle.
- Methanol must be flowing at least 500ml/min (also read by the Procede)
- AFR must be richer than ~12.5:1
- Boost must be over 10psi (so that it doesn't trigger early during spool-up and create an overboost condition).
- The car is in a gear and NOT in the middle of a gearchange condition. Through CAN data, it detects this regardless of whether you shift at redline or at 4000rpm.
- CAN Ignition advance must be below 14 degrees of timing. This is to avoid engaging nitrous while the DME is in the middle of a calculated load transition. This means the DME doesn't have to react to the knock when it is avoided in the first place.

When ALL these conditions are met, ONLY then will the nitrous trigger be armed. And when arming is combined with the user input (button pressed) the nitrous will spray. Either all at once, or gradually over the next .5-1 second depending on what you want and how big of jet you are running.

from: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=364489

[AltecBX]

Is there a kit that offers Methanol and Nitrous integrated together?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by ar design

No need for methanol with nitrous.

If you want to do it with a minimal degree of safety, yes, methanol or some wet fogger is necessary. And if you want to be as safe as possible, you run two meth nozzles, one staged after the other.

[ar design]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

If you want to do it with a minimal degree of safety, yes, methanol or some wet fogger is necessary. And if you want to be as safe as possible, you run two meth nozzles, one staged after the other.

I don't disagree that doing it with the added fuel in the W/M is better - however, I don't really think spraying without methanol is unsafe, esp, on a 50 shot or smaller - we did some wideband pulls with just a 50 shot, and the A/Fs were absolutely perfect with zero lean spike using the ESS tune.... Approx 12.3-12.5 off the bottle, 12.1-12.3 with the 50 shot.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by ar design

I don't disagree that doing it with the added fuel in the W/M is better - however, I don't really think spraying without methanol is unsafe, esp, on a 50 shot or smaller - we did some wideband pulls with just a 50 shot, and the A/Fs were absolutely perfect with zero lean spike using the ESS tune.... Approx 12.3-12.5 off the bottle, 12.1-12.3 with the 50 shot.

Spray without methanol becomes unsafe when you are already running close to the limits of the factory fuel system. On a stock-ish car, there is enough overhead in the fuel system to deal with (albeit not well) a small shot of nitrous. However, if the car is already making Stg3 and up power levels, there just enough 50-60whp worth of extra fuel it can add in. Which is why additional fuel(meth) injection is necessary.

And the scary thing about letting the DME adapt to the nitrous is when you turn the nitrous off and do a few runs. Then the DME will adapt to no-nitrous and adjust fuel trims accordingly. But when you hit the bottle again, it will run lean for the next run or two. Definitely not something you want conventional dme adaption to handle. If anything, it's much better to have the DME react to an over-rich condition when adapting to nitrous. And then having to adapt in the other direction when running off the bottle. Which is why running a huge secondary (staged) meth nozzle paired with the nitrous is so important. The traditionally sized primary nozzle (m7) is just there to initiate the meth flow, keep DME fuel trims on the negative side and to raise effective octane. All very useful things to have BEFORE you add nitrous.

Shiv

[cn555ic]

Can we just run one nozzle m10 and be safe. I am not looking into getting a two stage meth controller!!!

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

Can we just run one nozzle m10 and be safe. I am not looking into getting a two stage meth controller!!!

You don't need a progressive meth controller for the secondary nozzle. The procede controls it

The only extra hardware you will need is another nozzle and a splitter. Each only costing a few bucks.



Shiv

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

You don't need a progressive meth controller for the secondary nozzle. The procede controls it

The only extra hardware you will need is another nozzle and a splitter. Each only costing a few bucks.



Shiv

HOLY CRAP....You have 3 bungs at the elbow!!! MY god this thing looks like a mutated animal!!!

[scottp999]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

HOLY CRAP....You have 3 bungs at the elbow!!! MY god this thing looks like a mutated animal!!!

Looks like the AR elbow with 3 bungs. Quite a reasonable price. Things are moving along quickly for the N54. Imagine when aftermarket turbos really take off.

[cn555ic]

If the Procede controls the other nozzle, don't you still have to get another solenoid to control this nozzle from the Procede...The first nozzle is controlled by the boost which triggers the solenoid to open for the meth, how does the flow of the second nozzle be controlled by the Procede without a solenoid???

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

If the Procede controls the other nozzle, don't you still have to get another solenoid to control this nozzle from the Procede...The first nozzle is controlled by the boost which triggers the solenoid to open for the meth, how does the flow of the second nozzle be controlled by the Procede without a solenoid???

oops.. My bad. I forgot to mention that you will need another solenoid as well. But that's inexpensive as well. And the procede will control it.

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

oops.. My bad. I forgot to mention that you will need another solenoid as well. But that's inexpensive as well. And the procede will control it.

OKAY! That makes more sense....But SHiv...when this all hits the final product, please make a very DETAILED instruction on what we need to buy, and how to install it!! This engine bay is going to be very colorful and congested!!

[scottp999]

I hope the auto tune will be able to tell what you have:

1) No meth
2) Meth, one nozzle
3) Meth, two nozzles
4) Meth, two nozzles and Nitrous 1 nozzle.

This is really getting exciting.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by scottp999

I hope the auto tune will be able to tell what you have:

1) No meth
2) Meth, one nozzle
3) Meth, two nozzles
4) Meth, two nozzles and Nitrous 1 nozzle.

This is really getting exciting.

By putting 0, 1 or 2 in the Future Use 1 entry, you will be telling the procede what kind of additional injection you are running (none, progressive meth, or nitrous/staged meth). And the Procede will handle things accordingly. Full instructions/docs to follow soon.

After testing a lot of the tunes on the market, I've been surprised by how much user involvement is required. Between actual hardware changes (resister changes.. Come on now), custom tuning needs for acceptable performance, etc. So we will make every aspect of the tune self adjusting. Not just a claim as you will actually be able to monitor all the auto-adjusting, just for fun, by monitoring a debug channel. Just one of the advantages of having CANbus integration

shiv

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

By putting 0, 1 or 2 in the Future Use 1 entry, you will be telling the procede what kind of additional injection you are running (none, progressive meth, or nitrous/staged meth). And the Procede will handle things accordingly. Full instructions/docs to follow soon.

After testing a lot of the tunes on the market, I've been surprised by how much user involvement is required. Between actual hardware changes (resister changes.. Come on now), custom tuning needs for acceptable performance, etc. So we will make every aspect of the tune self adjusting. Not just a claim as you will actually be able to monitor all the auto-adjusting, just for fun, by monitoring a debug channel. Just one of the advantages of having CANbus integration

shiv

All this is making the wheels in my head turn! Wallet is going to take a big hit again...Car and me happy, wife=

[ar design]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Spray without methanol becomes unsafe when you are already running close to the limits of the factory fuel system. On a stock-ish car, there is enough overhead in the fuel system to deal with (albeit not well) a small shot of nitrous. However, if the car is already making Stg3 and up power levels, there just enough 50-60whp worth of extra fuel it can add in. Which is why additional fuel(meth) injection is necessary.

And the scary thing about letting the DME adapt to the nitrous is when you turn the nitrous off and do a few runs. Then the DME will adapt to no-nitrous and adjust fuel trims accordingly. But when you hit the bottle again, it will run lean for the next run or two. Definitely not something you want conventional dme adaption to handle. If anything, it's much better to have the DME react to an over-rich condition when adapting to nitrous. And then having to adapt in the other direction when running off the bottle. Which is why running a huge secondary (staged) meth nozzle paired with the nitrous is so important. The traditionally sized primary nozzle (m7) is just there to initiate the meth flow, keep DME fuel trims on the negative side and to raise effective octane. All very useful things to have BEFORE you add nitrous.

Shiv

I never, ever had it run lean.... *shrug* IDK

Originally Posted by scottp999

Looks like the AR elbow with 3 bungs. Quite a reasonable price. Things are moving along quickly for the N54. Imagine when aftermarket turbos really take off.

That atrocious looking thing isnt mine

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

You don't need a progressive meth controller for the secondary nozzle. The procede controls it

The only extra hardware you will need is another nozzle and a splitter. Each only costing a few bucks.



Shiv

Hey Shiv....since nitrous is coming out soon...question that some people have been throwing out there is that with nitrous being sprayed thats so cold thats injected so close to the meth spray, will the meth get frozen because of the extreme cold temps of the nitrous because the injection point is so close to each other??? It would NOT be good if the atomized meth/water droplets gets frozen and injested into the throttle body right? What do you think??

[lamia2super]

I might have asked this already idk I don't remember, but why do you need 3 nozzles? wont you be fine with 2 nozzle? why is their anther nozzle for meth? also is their another pump?