[teknochild]

Originally Posted by sflgator

The only thing is...when do you really know you want or need the extra power? In other words, how quickly can you decide...oh, I need to flip the switch. I just think that it's a good thing the extra power is there on demand the very second you decide you want it (or need it)...you just stomp on the gas and/or downshift and press on the gas and it's there. Having to flip the switch to "on" is just 1 extra step and could end up costing you a second or two, imho.

I suppose it might be a good idea for Shiv to have an "option" for an interior switch, but after driving my car now with the Xede for a couple weeks, I can say that if I had to do it all over again, I would still opt for the Xede kit without the switch!

guess im a lot diffrent from you guys, i either drive around normally or balls to the walls, the only time i would need to flip the switch if i was in nice guy mode would be if someone needs a spanking

[ArmyBimmerDude]

I guess if the switch is meant for fuel conservation, then it makes sense. Otherwise, I dont see the point to having it.

[sales@ESSTuning]

Originally Posted by teknochild

i love people who come on and post things like this for their first post, it doesnt give you away at all

What does my "first" post at a forum have to do with it? My reputation long preceeds E90post.com. If you recognize my name, you will realize I am FAR from a FNG. My work on an 07 335i sedan has already begun for a third Project Car. I stated an opinion that is directly related to the topic at hand, simple as that. You don't have to like it, but comments like this are not constructive.

[sales@ESSTuning]

Originally Posted by RiXst3r

Honestly... I would much rather leave the BMW DME in-tact... you dont wanna mess with that... the XEDE is a much safer approach IMHO... leave the DME programming to BMW.

With the XEDE, you dont have to worry about software updates killing your DME flash... not to mention, if you lease your 335i, you can take it off, and put it on your next 335i if you stick with the same car...

Thinking that altering sensor signals such as crank angle and mass air load through an interceptor interface to trick the DME into doing something else is "safer" than having all the maps, tables, functions, and I/O of the MSD80 DME correctly written to provide more performance is not logical. I'm not saying that the Vishnu solution is bad at all (as far as I've seen, he is the first to successfully make the 335i see marked improvement on a consistent and repeatable basis), just not any "safer" than competent in-DME tuning.

I do agree it is easier to transfer the Xede to other vehicles than DME software. Matter of fact, due to EWS, DME software transfer between vehicles, even of the same family, is impossible.

And since Shiv is in this thread, I would like to ask him or any Xede owners a few honest questions:

When you remove the Xede from a vehicle for which the DME has long term adaptations in place to operate with the altered signals, how long does the car take to return to stock or near stock adaptations once it is pulled?

What is the drivability like during this re-learning phase and what is the long term effect of removing and replacing the Xede on a regular basis, say for service or warranty work?

Finally, since modifying the mass air signal also presents a different load to the DME than the engine is actually producing, how do you update the internal operational parameters such as automatic transmission shift load shearing, cylinder head heat management modes, VANOS blowthrough allowances, high pressure fuel supply control, multiple ignition event mapping, and others that are directly dependant on the load input for which the Xede alters from reality?

These are not attacks, even tho surely some will always assume so. Just my technical curiosity towards something new.

[teknochild]

Originally Posted by MarvelPhx

What does my "first" post at a forum have to do with it? My reputation long preceeds E90post.com. If you recognize my name, you will realize I am FAR from a FNG. My work on an 07 335i sedan has already begun for a third Project Car. I stated an opinion that is directly related to the topic at hand, simple as that. You don't have to like it, but comments like this are not constructive.

umm well you joined the forum and knocked someone else with your first post (or atleast someone elses product) almost as if that was the onyl reas you joined, and given that since then you have made no other posts until now, and the posts you just made are the saem thing, thats what it had to do with it

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by MarvelPhx

Thinking that altering sensor signals such as crank angle and mass air load through an interceptor interface to trick the DME into doing something else is "safer" than having all the maps, tables, functions, and I/O of the MSD80 DME correctly written to provide more performance is not logical.

I'd argue that having all the maps, tables, fuctions, and I/O of the MSD80 DME quantified and mapped correctly by an aftermarket ECU tuner is about as likely as any of us winning the lottery tommorrow. I'd stick with running factory mapping with subtle input/output manipulation anyday. Throw in the fact that we can add application specific logic with our approach and things look even groovier. I've seen enough ecu flashes, esp. in the euro car market, that appear to function on the premise of guesswork than actual solid tuning principles. Maybe this market will be different. Maybe it won't. No need to speculate until the time comes. As for our product, I'm happy just to let the results speak for themselves at this point.

Cheers
shiv

[sales@ESSTuning]

Originally Posted by teknochild

umm well you joined the forum and knocked someone else with your first post (or atleast someone elses product) almost as if that was the onyl reas you joined, and given that since then you have made no other posts until now, and the posts you just made are the saem thing, thats what it had to do with it

I've read this forum since its inception. Just without a 335i, I had no reason to post. Things have recently changed. You do have the same join date as me I see so what is the point?

And I never knocked Vishnu, I just responded to the OP of why would I wait on the Xede. Read again.

[sales@ESSTuning]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I'd argue that having all the maps, tables, fuctions, and I/O of the MSD80 DME quantified and mapped correctly by an aftermarket ECU tuner is about as likely as any of us winning the lottery tommorrow. I'd stick with running factory mapping with subtle input/output manipulation anyday. Throw in the fact that we can add application specific logic with our approach and things look even groovier. I've seen enough ecu flashes, esp. in the euro car market, that appear to function on the premise of guesswork than actual solid tuning principles. Maybe this market will be different. Maybe it won't. No need to speculate until the time comes. As for our product, I'm happy just to let the results speak for themselves at this point.

Cheers
shiv

Shiv Sir, I greatly respect your response.

I agree that most tuners have little to no grasp of modern BMW Motor Electronics, never seen a DAMOS or A2L file, nor deciphered the actual code contained within. But there are a few that have and I am waiting to see what those results are before I jump to a solution for tuning the 335i. There is always more than one option and I love to compare. Makes for informative debate where everyone learns.

I'd like to hear your answers to the questions above tho; I am interested in your thoughts and/or trials regarding them and the Xede in a BMW application.

[sdiver68]

FWIW, in the sportbike tuning world, piggyback computers are the norm and have been for the last 10+ years. Most are made by Dynojet, but other tuning/race companies like Yoshimura have them as well. In fact, other than factory racer cheater boxes that you have to be a sponsored factory racer to have on your bike, I don't know of anyone who produces a replacement chip.

So, I for 1 am very comfortable with the piggyback concept, in fact more so than the replacement. Every race bike (at least every expert and pro) had one tuned to the mods on that bike.

[imsambeen]

I am having fun almost everyday. No problems so far.
Wait for what? Shiv will give free updates on software
and the solenoid bypass is removable.

My Poor tires,

Sam

[Jonn335]

Using a piggyback is the only realistic way to go for this sort of tuning, messing with the OEM computer is a very complicated buisiness, best left to the OEM. The amount of equipment, knowlege and time required to make the correct changes to the factory settings makes it far more costly to do, and the end result will be no different from what the xede does.
Also as soon as you mess with the ECU it will be goodby warranty for sure.
I know the likes of Dinan etc will eventualy come up with a re-flash, but it will take them a long time to get it right, and will be expensive. By then I am sure the xede will have proved itself to be the best solution (it prety much has already)

[OpenFlash]

And who says we're done with development?

Cheers,
shiv

[daves335i]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

And who says we're done with development?

Cheers,
shiv

Shiv,
Being new to the BMW world, but 6 years with an APR-chipped Audi S4, I'm familiar with the risk/reward of chipping your car. Loved my S4, but not as much if I didn't chip it. The fear of blowing the S4 turbos was finally what made me give it up (in fact, one turbo was 'loud' after a throttle body boot tear -- for 30K miles. A ticking time bomb).

What kind of numbers would you guess you can get out of the 335i *without* increasing boost? For example, one Audi tuner torque-limited their chip to 310 ft/lb, due to the rated limit on the tiptronic transmission. I, of course, ignore that chip, and went for the APR producing 388 ft/lb. After 60K chipped miles (100K altogether), my tranny fluid was fine.

But, for those of us who would be *very* interested in the Xede, but would want to start at a 'safer' level, and since the Xede is end user software upgradable, I know that I would be *very very* interested in being able to switch between a 'stock', a 'more power', and 'a lot more power' mode (I don't care personally about an internal switch. connecting the laptop to change for a winter setup compared to a summer setup is fine with out).

Thanx in advance for any reply, and, for goodness sake, stop reading these forums and take some time off! Its New Years!!

-Dave

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by daves335i

Shiv,
But, for those of us who would be *very* interested in the Xede, but would want to start at a 'safer' level, and since the Xede is end user software upgradable, I know that I would be *very very* interested in being able to switch between a 'stock', a 'more power', and 'a lot more power' mode (I don't care personally about an internal switch. connecting the laptop to change for a winter setup compared to a summer setup is fine with out).

Thanx in advance for any reply, and, for goodness sake, stop reading these forums and take some time off! Its New Years!!
-Dave

He's already stated that switch #1 can be "pass through" and switch #2 can be whatever tune you want, and if you don't mind hooking up a laptop you can make #1 and #2 be whatever you want!

In addition to pre-delivered "base" maps, you could modify any parameters the software allows and make your own maps. No extra boost wanted? What are you just going to mod A/F and timing? If so, I'd guess the gains would be in line with chipped non-turbo cars...~10hp or so.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by daves335i

Shiv,
Being new to the BMW world, but 6 years with an APR-chipped Audi S4, I'm familiar with the risk/reward of chipping your car. Loved my S4, but not as much if I didn't chip it. The fear of blowing the S4 turbos was finally what made me give it up (in fact, one turbo was 'loud' after a throttle body boot tear -- for 30K miles. A ticking time bomb).

What kind of numbers would you guess you can get out of the 335i *without* increasing boost? For example, one Audi tuner torque-limited their chip to 310 ft/lb, due to the rated limit on the tiptronic transmission. I, of course, ignore that chip, and went for the APR producing 388 ft/lb. After 60K chipped miles (100K altogether), my tranny fluid was fine.

But, for those of us who would be *very* interested in the Xede, but would want to start at a 'safer' level, and since the Xede is end user software upgradable, I know that I would be *very very* interested in being able to switch between a 'stock', a 'more power', and 'a lot more power' mode (I don't care personally about an internal switch. connecting the laptop to change for a winter setup compared to a summer setup is fine with out).

Thanx in advance for any reply, and, for goodness sake, stop reading these forums and take some time off! Its New Years!!

-Dave

There's a pretty big difference in the way we tuned the 335i from how others have tuned the turbo Audis. As others have mentioned, we don't raise boost from 6-7psi to 20+psi as typical in the Audi/VW tuning world. If that's not a sure fire way for premature turbo failure, I don't know what is.. lol Our gains are not only from mildly raising boost but also having full boost attainable at lower throttle angles and engine speeds. In stock from, the car would hit 7psi by 3000rpm and gradually creep up to 9-10psi by 5500rpm. Now it his 11-12psi by 2000rpm and holds it until 6000rpm, above which it slowly tapers down to 10psi. It also hits 90% of this boost level at 50-60% throttle. Whereas before, you would need to go full throttle if you wanted to see anything close to full boost. We also run the car substantially richer under boost which keeps EGTs in check which, in turns, keeps the turbos happy. We also run more ignition timing under low and moderate load which further reduced EGTs. Not only did BMW make one heck of an engine, they also left a lot of doors for us to open And that is precisely how I spent my Christmas/New Years holiday. More on that later

Cheers,
shiv

[sales@ESSTuning]

Originally Posted by Jonn335

Using a piggyback is the only realistic way to go for this sort of tuning, messing with the OEM computer is a very complicated buisiness, best left to the OEM. The amount of equipment, knowlege and time required to make the correct changes to the factory settings makes it far more costly to do, and the end result will be no different from what the xede does.

Very untrue. The DME is only complicated if you don't know what you are doing or haven't done it before. MSD80 is barely diffferent than MSV70, which in turn, is really not that different from "old" MS45. If BMW themsleves came out with a "ZHP sport version" of 335i software with more boost and 330whp...would you buy it? Or better yet, if Shiv accomplished all that he has inside the DME itself, would you still bother to buy the Xede? The end result would be very different.

Originally Posted by Jonn335

Also as soon as you mess with the ECU it will be goodby warranty for sure. I know the likes of Dinan etc will eventualy come up with a re-flash, but it will take them a long time to get it right, and will be expensive. By then I am sure the xede will have proved itself to be the best solution (it prety much has already)

Do you think that the Xede does not mess with your warranty? That is a dangerous misconception to have. Even if you remove it, how do you know it doesn't leave traces in the DME adaptations or other plausible values? What if BMW finds those traces? How safe is your warranty if you just overspun a turbo and blew a bearing from a wastegate being kept closed too long by a mystery force? What if this or some other strange problem happens a few times around the nation and BMW begins to investigate it? It is foolish to think BMW doesn't watch the aftermarket. And just because a CEL isn't thrown doesn't mean the DME isn't throwing a internal fault code that the GT1 or OPPS will easily reveal. About 1/4 of the fault codes a DME can throw do not trigger a CEL as they are not emissions related. There is more happening in that DME than what a dyno with AFR shows. And this is not specific to the Xede, a tuner that porks a DME tune has the same possibility.

I'm not knocking the Xede system. I am presenting another view that some may or may not want to express. Challenging a solution only brings about the true R&D that went into it. Vishnu has been in the Evo/WRX world for a good while, but is very new to BMW. And while the Xede has been very successfully used on Mitsu and Subis, BMW DME operation is vastly more complicated than either one of them and should be handled carefully and correctly. My inquiries validate the actual results as being as advertised and safe for the long term for everyone. I myself surely don't want a product that doesn't last, doesn't act as advertised, nor damages my car. Do you?

Finally, BMW doesn't warranty Dinan software at all, Dinan does. The future of 335i tuning will be a very hot topic for a long time and there will surely be many solutions. Until that time, noone knows what the best solution is. As of right now, the Xede is the only option, good or bad.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by MarvelPhx

Do you think that the Xede does not mess with your warranty? That is a dangerous misconception to have. Even if you remove it, how do you know it doesn't leave traces in the DME adaptations or other plausible values? What if BMW finds those traces? How safe is your warranty if you just overspun a turbo and blew a bearing from a wastegate being kept closed too long by a mystery force? What if this or some other strange problem happens a few times around the nation and BMW begins to investigate it? It is foolish to think BMW doesn't watch the aftermarket. And just because a CEL isn't thrown doesn't mean the DME isn't throwing a internal fault code that the GT1 or OPPS will easily reveal. About 1/4 of the fault codes a DME can throw do not trigger a CEL as they are not emissions related. There is more happening in that DME than what a dyno with AFR shows. And this is not specific to the Xede, a tuner that porks a DME tune has the same possibility.

FWIW, our goal is to avoid the triggering of any type ofl fault code-- OBD-II, BMW-specific or otherwise. We have used the factory diagnostic tool (at a dealership) to test for such codes during the beta/development process. During the this period, we've seen isolated incidences of fuel pressure plausability codes, o2 sensor stuck codes, MAP pressure plausability codes, boost pressure to low codes, etc,. It appears that we've licked these issues by some revisions to hardware/software. I say "appears" because I've witnessed no less than 3 or 4 bone stock cars log one or more of these internal codes. While we're still officially in the beta/development process, we fully expect our approach to not leave any tell-tales, give-aways or traces. The car is too new to offer this as a 100% garantee but it does seem to be a reasonable and acheivable target.

Furthmore, I wouldn't discount the Evo, Subaru, Honda or Mazda ECUs to be any less challenging to appease. Each had their share of complications/quirks that needed to be addressed. In many ways, the BMW ecu has proven to be a pussy cat to work with. Sure, there were some surprises along the way but I think we've gotten it under control with the help/feedback of our early adopters.

-Shiv

[musc]

Originally Posted by MarvelPhx

Very untrue. The DME is only complicated if you don't know what you are doing or haven't done it before. MSD80 is barely diffferent than MSV70, which in turn, is really not that different from "old" MS45. If BMW themsleves came out with a "ZHP sport version" of 335i software with more boost and 330whp...would you buy it? Or better yet, if Shiv accomplished all that he has inside the DME itself, would you still bother to buy the Xede? The end result would be very different.



Do you think that the Xede does not mess with your warranty? That is a dangerous misconception to have. Even if you remove it, how do you know it doesn't leave traces in the DME adaptations or other plausible values? What if BMW finds those traces? How safe is your warranty if you just overspun a turbo and blew a bearing from a wastegate being kept closed too long by a mystery force? What if this or some other strange problem happens a few times around the nation and BMW begins to investigate it? It is foolish to think BMW doesn't watch the aftermarket. And just because a CEL isn't thrown doesn't mean the DME isn't throwing a internal fault code that the GT1 or OPPS will easily reveal. About 1/4 of the fault codes a DME can throw do not trigger a CEL as they are not emissions related. There is more happening in that DME than what a dyno with AFR shows. And this is not specific to the Xede, a tuner that porks a DME tune has the same possibility.

I'm not knocking the Xede system. I am presenting another view that some may or may not want to express. Challenging a solution only brings about the true R&D that went into it. Vishnu has been in the Evo/WRX world for a good while, but is very new to BMW. And while the Xede has been very successfully used on Mitsu and Subis, BMW DME operation is vastly more complicated than either one of them and should be handled carefully and correctly. My inquiries validate the actual results as being as advertised and safe for the long term for everyone. I myself surely don't want a product that doesn't last, doesn't act as advertised, nor damages my car. Do you?

Finally, BMW doesn't warranty Dinan software at all, Dinan does. The future of 335i tuning will be a very hot topic for a long time and there will surely be many solutions. Until that time, noone knows what the best solution is. As of right now, the Xede is the only option, good or bad.

If anyone is that worried about a warranty, don't touch your car at all. Anything you do to potentially make more power will possibly end up putting more stress on all parts involved. Will they break or not? Who knows. I don't think anyone here is naive enough to think that putting the Xede on is 100% safe or 100% undetectable. What it does offer is an easy way to add dyno proven HP and TQ in a unit that can be easily removed before going to a dealer. I have yet to hear Shiv make claims about long term reliability..simply because the product is new. There have been plenty of individuals who have replicated the HP and Tq claims.

Just remember aftermarket parts dont automatically void a warranty. Read over the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975.

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by catm3

If anyone is that worried about a warranty, don't touch your car at all. Anything you do to potentially make more power will possibly end up putting more stress on all parts involved. Will they break or not? Who knows. I don't think anyone here is naive enough to think that putting the Xede on is 100% safe or 100% undetectable. What it does offer is an easy way to add dyno proven HP and TQ in a unit that can be easily removed before going to a dealer. I have yet to hear Shiv make claims about long term reliability..simply because the product is new. There have been plenty of individuals who have replicated the HP and Tq claims.

Just remember aftermarket parts dont automatically void a warranty. Read over the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975.

fyi - the Xede is "new" to the BMW (335i), but it is not a new product; it's been on EVO's, STi's, and a couple other types of cars for the past 4 years. And, if it had problems or caused problems for those cars, we probably already would've heard about it from the Mitsu and Subaru guys.

[OpenFlash]

To be fair, the hardware of the Xede will be changing soon in order to acheive the new RoHS (lead-free) compliance standards. Everything from its chipset to its board layout will be changed. But for now, the hardware has been unchanged for nearly 5 years.

Cheers,
shiv

[MichaelATL]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

There's a pretty big difference in the way we tuned the 335i from how others have tuned the turbo Audis. As others have mentioned, we don't raise boost from 6-7psi to 20+psi as typical in the Audi/VW tuning world. If that's not a sure fire way for premature turbo failure, I don't know what is.. lol Our gains are not only from mildly raising boost but also having full boost attainable at lower throttle angles and engine speeds. In stock from, the car would hit 7psi by 3000rpm and gradually creep up to 9-10psi by 5500rpm. Now it his 11-12psi by 2000rpm and holds it until 6000rpm, above which it slowly tapers down to 10psi. It also hits 90% of this boost level at 50-60% throttle. Whereas before, you would need to go full throttle if you wanted to see anything close to full boost. We also run the car substantially richer under boost which keeps EGTs in check which, in turns, keeps the turbos happy. We also run more ignition timing under low and moderate load which further reduced EGTs. Not only did BMW make one heck of an engine, they also left a lot of doors for us to open And that is precisely how I spent my Christmas/New Years holiday. More on that later

Cheers,
shiv

shiv,

I hate to sound like a fanboy, but I truly respect your approach. It has class. I don't want my car boosted to the max by some idiot. I like everything you said above. Very responsible tuning, very intelligent!

[edgarj]

Any update on estimated ship dates yet Shiv?