Preping 335i for Track worthyness - IAT/Cooling

AMASIAN · 08-04-2010, 03:49 PM

motul Mocool coolant additive...

or depending on your system, water wetter

SSIMPS · 08-04-2010, 04:47 PM

just curious, what were your best lap times on saturday?

zsapphire7 · 08-04-2010, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 330iSB

just curious, what were your best lap times on saturday?

I didnt have a timer

. I tried using the app harry's laptimer on my iphone and was getting mixed results. I think it confused certain start points. Plus it kept shuting down after 2-4 laps? I think i was in the 2:10-2:20 most of the time when i used 3rd gear. I should have asked a friend to just clock me with a stopwatch...

Were u in the black m3 ?

ModBargains.com · 08-04-2010, 05:04 PM

Definitely get the FMIC, an additional oil cooler, and a water/meth kit!

- Alan

SSIMPS · 08-04-2010, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zsapphire7

I didnt have a timer

. I tried using the app harry's laptimer on my iphone and was getting mixed results. I think it confused certain start points. Plus it kept shuting down after 2-4 laps? I think i was in the 2:10-2:20 most of the time when i used 3rd gear. I should have asked a friend to just clock me with a stopwatch...

Were u in the black m3 ?

I was in the silver/grey Dinan m3. My dad did most the driving at was getting around 2:40.. It was his first time racing though and he was a bit reluctant to push it too hard.

BMWAutoXer · 08-04-2010, 05:17 PM

can anyone with the new n54 M-Sport 335is chime in on how those compare in track day heat problems to the current 335i? Don't they have additional factory cooling?

Kelvin1000 · 08-04-2010, 07:58 PM

This thread is depressing me...

zsapphire7 · 08-04-2010, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelvin1000

This thread is depressing me...

Don't worry... I will come up with a solution

htoudiee · 08-04-2010, 08:24 PM

seriously... seems like people with Oil coolers (external), better radiator, and better than stock FMICs are still getting dialed back due to high temps. So I take it the issue is gonna be there regardless... either we have to run our cars 1 lap and let it rest ALOT and then another lap or we can expect to have less and less performance as we go.

Makes it so hard to keep track of your times there since the car is not producing consistant power.

BMWeber · 08-04-2010, 08:42 PM

no one has tried a better radiator yet, we'll see in month how that helps

Kelvin1000 · 08-04-2010, 09:26 PM

Are the turbos both oil cooled and water cooled? Did BMW not test this car around the ring during the summer months???

Praemienhai · 08-05-2010, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelvin1000

Are the turbos both oil cooled and water cooled? Did BMW not test this car around the ring during the summer months???

Yes, the turbos are both oil and water cooled. Thats one of the reasons why it is so important to keep the water temps within the intented temperature range as well as the oil temps.

And BMW has tested the car on the Nürburgring for sure, but only with 300bhp and less boost. The OEM cooling hardware of the x35i (oil cooler, water cooler) isn't sufficient for tunes with 400+bhp and extensive track use in hot weather.

TurboBimmer · 08-05-2010, 05:40 AM

Will upgraded turbos (such as RBs) induce more or less heat?

At similar boost levels, I would guess they'd run a bit cooler compared to our stock snails which are pushed to the limit of their efficiency.

mid-corner fun · 08-05-2010, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMASIAN

motul Mocool coolant additive...

or depending on your system, water wetter

Mocool in place for the next event in 2 weeks. I'm not expecting miracles but a 20F water temp drop might get me a few more laps. FMIC on order. Let's see how it goes...

mid-corner fun · 08-05-2010, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praemienhai

Yes, the turbos are both oil and water cooled. Thats one of the reasons why it is so important to keep the water temps within the intented temperature range as well as the oil temps.

And BMW has tested the car on the Nürburgring for sure, but only with 300bhp and less boost. The OEM cooling hardware of the x35i (oil cooler, water cooler) isn't sufficient for tunes with 400+bhp and extensive track use in hot weather.

+1.

And neither is the extra cooling on the performance kit, they're not designed for 400+rwhp setups. Likewise, I would expect the 335is to provide cooling for the modest power increase over the 335i, mod it and you're probably in the same situation as the rest of us. We'll need to wait for confirmation from someone that can push a 335is on the track...

The weather is not helping either, we've had an unusually warm summer in the US. High 80s, 90s, spell trouble for 335i cooling at the track...

jippii ensio · 08-05-2010, 09:46 AM

You just need to add cooling and the car has absolutely no problems with the heat.

Read e.g. Evolution Racewerks front page: "...smashed the previous track record for Street Class RWD by more than 3 seconds! We now own this track record....We set our fastest lap of the day at 2 pm, despite the high temps."

Bmw added auxiliary radiator when adding some 20whp, and you guys are adding a lot more and still think you can manage without proper cooling.

You need to upgrade the stock OC, as it is not up to the job. Get a Setrab core of triple the size of the original and fit it into the wheel well. If that's not enough, add another one to the driver's side wheel well. That is what Evolution racewerks did and by doing that they did not even need to add the auxiliary radiator.

Also, remember to run water wetter.

What you should not do is to run something in front of the radiator, such as FMIC or OC. The turbos are cooled by both water and oil, so the cooling systems are linked. So you should try to lower both coolant and oil temps and not to concentrate only one of them.

Ironring Racing · 08-05-2010, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zsapphire7

just wondering, is there any reason why you cant run both the VK oilcooler and the AR one at the same time

?

Or 2 AR's, or 3. But when going from OEM OC to OEM + AR, more than double the original oil cooling capacity, didn't substantially reduce the temps, exactly what are you expecting?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praemienhai

I'm sure there is a reason why BMW choosed to update the water cooling instead of the oil cooling with the Performance Power Kit.

Probably, but water temps aren't an issue for me. And again, that's not for 400+ HP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMASIAN

motul Mocool coolant additive...

or depending on your system, water wetter

Done (WW)

Quote:

Originally Posted by htoudiee

seriously... seems like people with Oil coolers (external), better radiator, and better than stock FMICs are still getting dialed back due to high temps. So I take it the issue is gonna be there regardless... either we have to run our cars 1 lap and let it rest ALOT and then another lap or we can expect to have less and less performance as we go.

Makes it so hard to keep track of your times there since the car is not producing consistant power.

Exactly

Quote:

Originally Posted by jippii ensio

You just need to add cooling and the car has absolutely no problems with the heat.

Read e.g. Evolution Racewerks front page: "...smashed the previous track record for Street Class RWD by more than 3 seconds! We now own this track record....We set our fastest lap of the day at 2 pm, despite the high temps."

Bmw added auxiliary radiator when adding some 20whp, and you guys are adding a lot more and still think you can manage without proper cooling.

You need to upgrade the stock OC, as it is not up to the job. Get a Setrab core of triple the size of the original and fit it into the wheel well. If that's not enough, add another one to the driver's side wheel well. That is what Evolution racewerks did and by doing that they did not even need to add the auxiliary radiator.

Also, remember to run water wetter.

What you should not do is to run something in front of the radiator, such as FMIC or OC. The turbos are cooled by both water and oil, so the cooling systems are linked. So you should try to lower both coolant and oil temps and not to concentrate only one of them.

Wow, thanks for that armchair expert opinion. Please, go read a Bloomberg article and come back and tell me if I should sell my BP stock.

zsapphire7 · 08-05-2010, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironring Racing

Or 2 AR's, or 3. But when going from OEM OC to OEM + AR, more than double the original oil cooling capacity, didn't substantially reduce the temps, exactly what are you expecting?

Even though it looks like its hard to cool our cars down because of these small turbos making that much heat at 15~psi up in the 5Kto 7K RPM range (~400whp), I think its possible to cool these guys down enough for consistant track power for ~20mins. It just might take a lot more cooling than doubling oil cooling capacity. In fact since theyre both water and oil cooled it may take a combination of both to acheive that but its possible

. Berk's 135 seems to have been able to acheive ~ 380whp @ 250-260 oil temps and 240F coolant temps on the track.

Maybe we need more air volume to pass in front of the car to acheive this. Im thinking about deleting the fogs and using that extra space on both sides for cooling.

stressdoc · 08-05-2010, 04:55 PM

Two other areas that can help are (1) weight reduction, and (2) aero mods. After installing M Aero front my car stays a bit cooler longer.

Doug007 · 08-05-2010, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zsapphire7

Im thinking about deleting the fogs and using that extra space on both sides for cooling.

There's a reason BMW did this on the 335is.

A much larger oil cooler, better ducting, and an upgraded radiator would all help.

However, there may be a practical limit to the amount of cooling that can be achieved and therefore a limit on the HP you're running with a tuned 335.

Kelvin1000 · 08-05-2010, 06:12 PM

Two comments:

1) I don't know for sure but I would be willing to bet that a stock 335i would drop the boost lower than 8 PSI after a few laps in this heat.

2) I wonder if keepting the EGTs lower with a richer fuel mix might also help. I noticed that the Dinan and GIAC tunes run much different A/F ratios than the Piggybacks...

We need Mr. 5 to chime in since he is always at the track...

zsapphire7 · 08-05-2010, 06:18 PM

As far as i know, the stock settings will actually increase boost with increases in IAT to compensate for the less dense air. This way the car will produce roughly the same amount of power as it does in the cold. However, im sure at some certain oil/coolant temp, the stock ecu will probably drop it down again. My bet is thats what limp mode is...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelvin1000

Two comments:

1) I don't know for sure but I would be willing to bet that a stock 335i would drop the boost lower than 8 PSI after a few laps in this heat.

2) I wonder if keepting the EGTs lower with a richer fuel mix might also help. I noticed that the Dinan and GIAC tunes run much different A/F ratios than the Piggybacks...

We need Mr. 5 to chime in since he is always at the track...

08-04-2010, 03:49 PM	#45
AMASIAN Banned 46 Rep 598 Posts Drives: 335i Vert Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Rochester, NY iTrader: (8)	motul Mocool coolant additive... or depending on your system, water wetter
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08-04-2010, 04:47 PM	#46
SSIMPS Lieutenant 149 Rep 586 Posts Drives: 2025 X5 50e Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: California iTrader: (2)	just curious, what were your best lap times on saturday? __________________ 2025 X5 50e 2024 M5 Competition 2015 M4 6MT - JB4 / Gintani DPs 2005 M3 6MT - VF Engineering S/C / KW / StopTech / Dinan / HPF Stage III (removed)- Track Toy
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08-04-2010, 05:04 PM	#48
ModBargains.com Banned 488 Rep 13,582 Posts Drives: JB E92 335i Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: 1721 E. Lambert Rd #C, La Habra, CA 90631 iTrader: (51)	Definitely get the FMIC, an additional oil cooler, and a water/meth kit! - Alan
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08-04-2010, 05:17 PM	#50
BMWAutoXer No Cones 14 Rep 104 Posts Drives: F31 330 xDrive Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: MI iTrader: (0)	can anyone with the new n54 M-Sport 335is chime in on how those compare in track day heat problems to the current 335i? Don't they have additional factory cooling?
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08-04-2010, 07:58 PM	#51
Kelvin1000 Major 254 Rep 1,297 Posts Drives: 2019 BMW M2 Competition MT Hoc Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Miami, FL iTrader: (4)	This thread is depressing me...
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08-04-2010, 08:24 PM	#53
htoudiee HT 15 Rep 388 Posts Drives: BMW, AMG Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: CA iTrader: (0)	seriously... seems like people with Oil coolers (external), better radiator, and better than stock FMICs are still getting dialed back due to high temps. So I take it the issue is gonna be there regardless... either we have to run our cars 1 lap and let it rest ALOT and then another lap or we can expect to have less and less performance as we go. Makes it so hard to keep track of your times there since the car is not producing consistant power.
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08-04-2010, 08:42 PM	#54
BMWeber Major 36 Rep 1,329 Posts Drives: 08 135i Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Amesbury, MA iTrader: (5)	no one has tried a better radiator yet, we'll see in month how that helps
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08-04-2010, 09:26 PM	#55
Kelvin1000 Major 254 Rep 1,297 Posts Drives: 2019 BMW M2 Competition MT Hoc Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Miami, FL iTrader: (4)	Are the turbos both oil cooled and water cooled? Did BMW not test this car around the ring during the summer months??? Last edited by Kelvin1000; 08-04-2010 at 11:14 PM..
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08-05-2010, 05:40 AM	#57
TurboBimmer Lieutenant Colonel 78 Rep 1,616 Posts Drives: F82 M4 Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Luxembourg iTrader: (5)	Will upgraded turbos (such as RBs) induce more or less heat? At similar boost levels, I would guess they'd run a bit cooler compared to our stock snails which are pushed to the limit of their efficiency. __________________ Performance Seats, Exhaust, Splitters, Pedals, Steering Wheel / RB Turbos / M3 CF Roof / Brembo GT BBK 355/345 / Rollcage / Forge FMIC / Quaife LSD / Öhlins Road & Track / M3 Suspension Parts / Solid Subframe Bushings / Vorshlag Camberplates / Megan Racing Toe Links / LeatherZ Gauges / Extended M3 DCT Paddles / ER Sports OC / AR OC / Aux Radiator / AR DPs / Alpina TCU / COBB Pro-Tune
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08-05-2010, 09:46 AM	#60
jippii ensio Major 72 Rep 1,432 Posts Drives: 335i Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: On the road iTrader: (0)	You just need to add cooling and the car has absolutely no problems with the heat. Read e.g. Evolution Racewerks front page: "...smashed the previous track record for Street Class RWD by more than 3 seconds! We now own this track record....We set our fastest lap of the day at 2 pm, despite the high temps." Bmw added auxiliary radiator when adding some 20whp, and you guys are adding a lot more and still think you can manage without proper cooling. You need to upgrade the stock OC, as it is not up to the job. Get a Setrab core of triple the size of the original and fit it into the wheel well. If that's not enough, add another one to the driver's side wheel well. That is what Evolution racewerks did and by doing that they did not even need to add the auxiliary radiator. Also, remember to run water wetter. What you should not do is to run something in front of the radiator, such as FMIC or OC. The turbos are cooled by both water and oil, so the cooling systems are linked. So you should try to lower both coolant and oil temps and not to concentrate only one of them.
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08-05-2010, 04:55 PM	#63
stressdoc Moderator 660 Rep 10,865 Posts Drives: BMW i8; Toy 4runner TRD pro Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Waco TX iTrader: (0)	Two other areas that can help are (1) weight reduction, and (2) aero mods. After installing M Aero front my car stays a bit cooler longer. __________________ My recent ED photos: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1026808 my not-so-recent ED: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31829 Please join BMWCCA http://bmwcca.org/index.php?pageid=c...&ref_by=300279
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08-05-2010, 06:12 PM	#65
Kelvin1000 Major 254 Rep 1,297 Posts Drives: 2019 BMW M2 Competition MT Hoc Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Miami, FL iTrader: (4)	Two comments: 1) I don't know for sure but I would be willing to bet that a stock 335i would drop the boost lower than 8 PSI after a few laps in this heat. 2) I wonder if keepting the EGTs lower with a richer fuel mix might also help. I noticed that the Dinan and GIAC tunes run much different A/F ratios than the Piggybacks... We need Mr. 5 to chime in since he is always at the track...
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