[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Its not limiting boost that is the issue. It's about being able to limit ignition advance setpoint. Doesn't matter if you are running low boost or high boost. Or with meth or without meth. The need for timing control is there in all applications. It's just that the consequences of not having it are going to be most obvious in high boost/meth applications. You NEED to limit advance when meth harbor started flowing (or stops flowing suddenly). Just knocking down boost IS NOT ENOUGH.

It's insane to do what some are doing with boost without timing control. Its the biggest scam perpetrated in the n54 tuning world and not enough knowledgeable customers out there to recognize it.

I'm with you on this one Shiv...

i would have expected more issues on this engine platform due to the OEM boost parameters (which are in the "quite safe" area) vs. higher boost environment of some of the tuned cars already running strong and consistent.

its clear and apparent that this is not a mechanical failure, but more of a situation aggrevated by the lack of adequate timing control. As seen on the other engines' failure (enrita's) the problem may or may not be the same, but the same results are evident. On his car there was a detonation related failure, which affected a portion of the piston crown and breaking the down the ringland area. It should be noted by anyone thinking of tuning a forced induction car, to read Turbo Basics 101, and have some grip on the how f/i is different from n/a, plus timing and detonation principles. What these changes do to a f/i car vs an n/a car.

this is not an indictment of one tune over the other ... just simple, basic facts available to those willing to learn -- before flipping the switch.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

They both were running high boost but one had upgraded turbos and the other stockers...
There is one more thing they had in common also that they both were running at the time of failure...thats one aspect that I am

I'm not touching that.....

[IlChengis]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

You got something to say off topic you PM, thats how this forum should work.

Says who?
Meantime, Vasillalov posts twice and stays on topic, then...

Originally Posted by JPSlick

You're out of your a$$ as usual.

...even after Vasil does try to stay on topic and stops arguing with you? It seems like you're just looking to argue.

Calm down brother, I don't agree 100% with his statements about flash tunes and I am not particularly fond of GIAC and their pricing/flashing approach, but you're out of line.

I am sorry that another N54 was sacrificed, I am surely taking note and trying to learn from this unfortunate episode.

-Walter

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Nothing to do with cylinder-to-cylinder meth distribution. The formula for knock is simple and already satisfied by running higher than stock boost with stock ignition timing targets with an octane enhancement system (meth) that lags 0.5-1 second behind boost onset. It's simple basic tuning 101. Without the ability to limit timing advance during this period of exposure, you're gambling. This is fact.

Let's learn something from this instead of arguing.

haha !!

i hadnt even gotten to this post till after i posted -- hope we dont sound too much alike --

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Treppiede

Says who?
Meantime, Vasillalov posts twice and stays on topic, then...
...even after Vasil does try to stay on topic and stops arguing with you? It seems like you're just looking to argue.

Calm down brother, I don't agree 100% with his statements about flash tunes and I am not particularly fond of GIAC and their pricing/flashing approach, but you're out of line.

I am sorry that another N54 was sacrificed, I am surely taking note and trying to learn from this unfortunate episode.

-Walter

So you call me out to steer the topic further off topic.

Congrats your not part of the solution but part of the problem even still.

Next

(PS my post was relevant to his post, regardless if it makes him look bad, it is what it is; furthermore, he continued to point fingers at other tunes and other tunes faults without reading into other causes of the failure, so he was still off topic and even more wrong).

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

And this is where BMS/Terry will suddenly understand why reverse engineering the Procede through datalog analysis hasn't work so well:

None of the secondary ignition retard corrections are reflected in the datalogs. They are applied after the ignition (map) correction stage. This has been the case since we released v4 and I'm surprised that you guys haven't figured that out. My suggestion is to care less about what we are doing/how we are doing it and more on what it takes to make your tune as safe as possible for end users. Post engine failure public service announcements don't cut it. Especially the guys that shell out $10k+ due to a tuning failure.

And ramping up the boost output signal in case of meth flow failure is ridiculous. All it does it close the throttle. But only after dozens of engine events. You need to apply a timing correction that takes less than 1 engine event to be induced. Oh wait... CPS offsetting doesn't work according to Terry.

I think Terry needs to learn a bit more about engine tuning before anything else. His approach to tuning conflicts with not only basic engine tuning theory but also common sense. And a service to those who really care about tuning their engine correctly, I think you should bow out of this argument. Because, no offense intended, the same suggestion/observation applies to you.

Shiv

CPS offsets can not be applied in one engine revolution and you know that. They must come in over several revolutions to prevent false misfire codes from being triggered. Setting the map output over target results in an instant timing drop. Just like your customer datalogs showing an instant timing increase to 20+ degrees during fast manual shifts. The map outputting is simply the fastest way to influence timing.

As far of the rest of it, I am not arguing with you about your views of Terry, etc.

Mike

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

The point is the last two cars that had engine failure were from Sweden and were running excessive boost of 19+ PSI.

So it begs the question what is going on over there that is not going on over here.

Now normally I wouldnt segregate an entire country.... but maybe their fuel isnt up to par, or maybe they are pushing beyond limits we do over here?

There is a lot more people with tunes in the US then in other countries I would assume? So you would think if anything a country with more people using a product would have more cases of failure, but this is not the case.

I dont know, I'm just in for answer.

Not trying to point fingers, im just bringing up the obvious.

All I'm really trying to say is how ironic.

I think the Sweden thing is a statistical anomaly/cluster. Could be wrong but it is definitely odd as the amount of tuned Swedish N54s is extremely low compared to Canada and the US.

Mike

[cn555ic]

I wonder if he went ahead and used the NGK plugs that he was inquiring about? I think Enrita also used these same plugs..

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=384541

[enrita]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

I wonder if he went ahead and used the NGK plugs that he was inquiring about? I think Enrita also used these same plugs..

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=384541

he had OEM plugs and the anomaly in sweden is actually myself since i am italian but live here and i am out of my mind
Seems my failure happened straight away and the heat generated melted the plug while his failure was more gradual over time.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

I wonder if he went ahead and used the NGK plugs that he was inquiring about? I think Enrita also used these same plugs..

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=384541

You must be a private investigator as a profession, nothing gets past you!

Edit- enrita said stock plugs.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

CPS offsets can not be applied in one engine revolution and you know that. They must come in over several revolutions to prevent false misfire codes from being triggered. Setting the map output over target results in an instant timing drop. Just like your customer datalogs showing an instant timing increase to 20+ degrees during fast manual shifts. The map outputting is simply the fastest way to influence timing.

As far of the rest of it, I am not arguing with you about your views of Terry, etc.

Mike

Terry (and it's clearly you dictating to Mike),
Misfire diagnostics aren't a concern if a high boost meth failure scenario. Its far more preferable to induce a misfire/limp than grenade a piston ring. So no timing retard rate limiting need be used.

And you should know that CAN logging is limited to 10/sec so pointing out a mid-shift timing spike is disingenuous. Especially considering that you now know that short term timing corrections are represented in the datalogs. But let's know deviate from the topic.

[Big Tom]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

I think the Sweden thing is a statistical anomaly/cluster. Could be wrong but it is definitely odd as the amount of tuned Swedish N54s is extremely low compared to Canada and the US.

Mike

I think the biggest difference between Sweden and the rest of the world is that we use to race between 50-280 km/h (31-174 mph) on our airfield events.
That's some really hard work for the tiny little N54.

[Jonny550]

It seems to me the obvious reason for the whole problem is running to much boost. From what i understand about ignition/timing etc ( witch is not alot). you could run 16psi and have just as good power as the guys running 18+psi if you have good timing.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by Big Tom

I think the biggest difference between Sweden and the rest of the world is that we use to race between 50-280 km/h (31-174 mph) on our airfield events.
That's some really hard work for the tiny little N54.

I can see that as a big problem, engine pushed to the ragged edge for a long time as opposed to the short 11-13 second blast you get here in the US.

top speed and mile runs really put a test on the car and the tuning.

[MisterSkiMask]

Originally Posted by Big Tom

I think the biggest difference between Sweden and the rest of the world is that we use to race between 50-280 km/h (31-174 mph) on our airfield events.
That's some really hard work for the tiny little N54.

Exactly what I was going to say. That and everyone wants to have the fastest xxxxx before the snow starts falling so they can have bragging rights until the sun comes back out.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Terry (and it's clearly you dictating to Mike),
Misfire diagnostics aren't a concern if a high boost meth failure scenario. Its far more preferable to induce a misfire/limp than grenade a piston ring. So no timing retard rate limiting need be used.

And you should know that CAN logging is limited to 10/sec so pointing out a mid-shift timing spike is disingenuous. Especially considering that you now know that short term timing corrections are represented in the datalogs. But let's know deviate from the topic.

Triggering a misfire adds the negative of cutting fuel from the cylinder causing a partial run-lean condition with meth but no fuel injected. That isn't the way to go at all. And I have not heard of customers of yours saying misfires are being triggered as meth rates increase and decrease. So that seems to be more on the theoretical side than what is actually implemented. When the JB3 failsafe is properly used it's solid. You set the minimum flow before boost can increase. So flow has to be there before the boost is increased. When it cuts out the throttle is instantly closed, timing instantly dropped, and there is a fuel surge from the short term fuel trims giving a rich bump to provide an extra layer of protection.

This could be a meth failure related problem but the bigger thing to take from this thread is running 18-19-20psi on pump+meth or even race gas+ meth is not without its risks. Many customers in both camps run 18+psi with zero CPS offset daily.

Mike

PS. On the CAN logging I've heard 10 samples/second is about the limit of the ECU but I thought you advertised 30 samples/second?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Triggering a misfire adds the negative of cutting fuel from the cylinder causing a partial run-lean condition with meth but no fuel injected. That isn't the way to go at all. And I have not heard of customers of yours saying misfires are being triggered as meth rates increase and decrease. So that seems to be more on the theoretical side than what is actually implemented. When the JB3 failsafe is properly used it's solid. You set the minimum flow before boost can increase. So flow has to be there before the boost is increased. When it cuts out the throttle is instantly closed, timing instantly dropped, and there is a fuel surge from the short term fuel trims giving a rich bump to provide an extra layer of protection.

This could be a meth failure related problem but the bigger thing to take from this thread is running 18-19-20psi on pump+meth or even race gas+ meth is not without its risks. Many customers in both camps run 18+psi with zero CPS offset daily.

Mike

PS. On the CAN logging I've heard 10 samples/second is about the limit of the ECU but I thought you advertised 30 samples/second?

The nonCAN channels log at 32/sec. The CAN channels are currently limited to 10/sec. And the rest of what Terry told you to write is rubbish.

[mithiral67]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

And the rest of what Terry told you to write is rubbish.

[shifterboy45]

I have yet to see a BMW toss a piston, unless it was an oiling/lubrication problem or a hydro-lock where water was introduced in to the intake.

I'm sorry to hear about this fellows tragedy, but as this all plays out, wouldnt it be a good time to reflect on how much knowledge you have about what is going on in the combustion chamber, how are pistons designed, what ignition timing is and how it plays its part in the 720degree principle.

if BMW can run their Formula 1 cars on seasoned (used) M10 four cylinder engine blocks -- put out 1200hp+ at 30+psi boost and keep things together, i think these cars should be able to deal with 500hp with no problem.

take it step by step, without jumping to immediate conclusions.. i commented based on the ringland failure, without pictures and parts disassembled im really taking an educated guess. so i dont want to seem like im part of the confusion.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Big Tom

I think the biggest difference between Sweden and the rest of the world is that we use to race between 50-280 km/h (31-174 mph) on our airfield events.
That's some really hard work for the tiny little N54.

That is quite abusive... at best I do a 40-150 run. Then I shut it down and call it a day. Might do one more run after a cool off.

That last 24 MPH is a lot of work.

That is about the jist of my WOT, after that its daily driving on minimal to low boost.

[Clap135]

Did sevak have a coolingmist Meth kit?

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Did sevak have a coolingmist Meth kit?

Bmw 335i E92 MT, BMS JB3 2.0, BMS SLD, BMS Boost/IAT Gauge, BMS DCI, BMS 02 s*ms, Heat shield, Riss Racing MCV, AR Cat*ess DP´s, AR OCC, Simons Catback, ETS Intercooler, CM VC2 Methkitt, CM meth elbow. My car--->http://www.garaget.org/?car=141758