[radgator1]

Originally Posted by bmwzimmer

AWESOME. This will put to rest alot of peoples concerns...

I wish someone with a Turbo Tuner who's close to a BMW tech or SA run this same diagnostic test on the ECU to see if anything shows up. Also would be nice to do this test on a stock car.

Several BMW techs are running TT's on their cars and according to Jeff, they can't detect it once it has been removed. He would have to confirm that though.

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by CoralRedPlz

that answer is no, bmw does not currently have any type of software that can detect a procede that has been uninstalled.

I think you're being a little naive. None of us fully understand the inner workings of the 335 ECM and what it may or may not store. It’s very possible there is a creative way to prove someone is using a piggy back device.

[homerunball]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I honestly don't know how one can find any kind of proof that the PROcede was ever installed. It is not a flash so it has no effect on the flash counter built into the ECU. It does not provide the ECU with any signals that are out of range. It does not eliminate any signals that would go to the ECU. As a result, boost measured by the ECU is in the stock range. So is AFR. So is boost control duty cycle. So is intake temp. Etc,. Unless BMW has a tiny British nanny hiding under the hood looking for additional electronics, I think its safe to say the PROcede is invisible when removed. As some customers who reported themselves when taking the car to the dealership for service. But I think if someone is truly worried about this or anything else, don't modify the car.

One thing to remember is that unlike the TT, the PROcede adjusts fuel and timing directly by influencing the signals from the crank angle sensor and the factory o2 sensors-- not by adjusting the air temp signal which can be loggable and provide values which can be viewed as suspicious or "out of spec." We put a lot of time and testing into the developmemt of the PROcede. And much of thise time involved visits to the dealership to test for transparancy.

-shiv

I'm not a tuner or a computer programmer but I am an engineer in the field and I can say with almost 100% certainty that all parameters of engine operation can be logged. In fact from what my ex-coworkers say(they did ECU programming for TRD) it is VERY easy, there are many ways to measure (not just through logging in the ECU), and it is not expensive to implement a data logging system like this; as it is done while the motor is on the powerbench during development.

Also gentlemen, as engineers we have to contend with the fact that everything fails, including sensors. We would never design an engine control program to rely only on output sensors. There has to be another feedback loop with sensors that record the absolute pressure and absolute temperature of the block for the unlikely event that the sensors in the ECU loop are damaged or failed. The sensors in the ECU control loop is not the last call, it is just a loop used to control steady state operations. The sensors that either shuts down the engine, or triggers an error code are from the absolute sensors that cannot be altered and is not accessable with any piggy back loop. These sensors are there for redundancy if the ECU sensors fail.

I'm not sure of the specifics of BMW engine development however, most auto industries develop and control the engine in a similar way. In conclusion, all I am saying is that they can and will find out if they want to (when will they really want to? when it costs them over 10k to replace a blown engine); they certainly have the means and the equipment to....and that is a fact.

[CoralRedPlz]

Originally Posted by Terry Burger

I think you're being a little naive. None of us fully understand the inner workings of the 335 ECM and what it may or may not store. It’s very possible there is a creative way to prove someone is using a piggy back device.

while i may be naive, guys like TT, shiv and everyone else who has put in hundreds of hours studying this car certainly arent. i am going to trust what they say, since its the culmination of lots of research. and just bc u dont know the inner workings of the ecu, who's to say that someone else doesnt?

[CoralRedPlz]

Originally Posted by homerunball

I'm not a tuner or a computer programmer but I am an engineer in the field and I can say with almost 100% certainty that all parameters of engine operation can be logged. In fact from what my ex-coworkers say(they did ECU programming for TRD) it is VERY easy, there are many ways to measure (not just through logging in the ECU), and it is not expensive to implement a data logging system like this; as it is done while the motor is on the powerbench during development.

Also gentlemen, as engineers we have to contend with the fact that everything fails, including sensors. We would never design an engine control program to rely only on output sensors. There has to be another feedback loop with sensors that record the absolute pressure and absolute temperature of the block for the unlikely event that the sensors in the ECU loop are damaged or failed. The sensors in the ECU control loop is not the last call, it is just a loop used to control steady state operations. The sensors that either shuts down the engine, or triggers an error code are from the absolute sensors that cannot be altered and is not accessable with any piggy back loop. These sensors are there for redundancy if the ECU sensors fail.

I'm not sure of the specifics of BMW engine development however, most auto industries develop and control the engine in a similar way. In conclusion, all I am saying is that they can and will find out if they want to (when will they really want to? when it costs them over 10k to replace a blown engine); they certainly have the means and the equipment to....and that is a fact.

detailz plz...

[Dr_Dirt]

Originally Posted by CEA 3

Just to let everyone on this forum know, and make this clear.

I know someone who was suspected of having a "chip" (procede) on his/her car and didnt have it on when the car was at the dealer. The dealer had sent the ECU data out to BMWNA to see if there was traces and BMWNA came back with abosolutley no traces of any "chip" ever being installed and it was 100% undetectable.

end of story!

p.s this person was not me.

I wonder if the TT can make the same claim, anyway Kudos goes out to Shiv.
BTW my 2001.5 S4 has had an APR chip (250hp to 318hp) for over 3 years and I never had ANY engine related failures or fuel pump issues. I have to believe that the 335 will not experience any ill effects related to either the TT or the Pro because of the similiar power gains.

[musc]

BMW is watching us all...right now....typing....

[E90Boy]

Originally Posted by CEA 3

Just to let everyone on this forum know, and make this clear.

I know someone who was suspected of having a "chip" (procede) on his/her car and didnt have it on when the car was at the dealer. The dealer had sent the ECU data out to BMWNA to see if there was traces and BMWNA came back with abosolutley no traces of any "chip" ever being installed and it was 100% undetectable.

end of story!

p.s this person was not me.

THANK YOU. I'm sure if they can't detect, trace, or log your friend's uninstalled PROcede 335i its a good sign and we'll start hearing more stories.:rocks:

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by catm3

BMW is watching us all...right now....typing....

How true.

[bimport]

Originally Posted by CEA 3

Just to let everyone on this forum know, and make this clear.

I know someone who was suspected of having a "chip" (procede) on his/her car and didnt have it on when the car was at the dealer. The dealer had sent the ECU data out to BMWNA to see if there was traces and BMWNA came back with abosolutley no traces of any "chip" ever being installed and it was 100% undetectable.

end of story!

p.s this person was not me.

Yes, end of story!

I am just glad this can be put to rest once and for all. No really, I know someone who knows someone who said that if BMW finds traces that you had the PROcede installed on your car they give you a free oil change.

P.S. Make sure that you demand that the dealer change your oil for free. If not, write a letter to BMW NA about not getting what you deserve.

[astris]

Originally Posted by bimport

Yes, end of story!

I am just glad this can be put to rest once and for all. No really, I know someone who knows someone who said that if BMW finds traces that you had the PROcede installed on your car they give you a free oil change.

Ok enough...

According to you everyone else is wrong, but you have yet to support your side with anything factual.

THIS IS YOUR CALL OUT

Please provide us with detailed facts, evidence, processes, etc. of how BMW can detect Proceed on the ecu. Myself, and many other I'm sure, are dying to hear your in depth explaination. So please elighten us with your advanced bmw software detection knowledge.

If you cannot provide this, please refrain from posting!!!

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by astris

Ok enough...

According to you everyone else is wrong, but you have yet to support your side with anything factual.

THIS IS YOUR CALL OUT

Please provide us with detailed facts, evidence, processes, etc. of how BMW can detect Proceed on the ecu. Myself, and many other I'm sure, are dying to hear your in depth explaination. So please elighten us with your advanced bmw software detection knowledge.

If you cannot provide this, please refrain from posting!!!

+1. As my wife would say, 'nnoying.

[WilyB]

Oh come on, Bimport is just doing his obvious job: deter all BMW customers to mod their cars in anyway whatsoever.

Bimport started by trying to destroy the PROcede because it is the best system out here.

But I am sure he is working hard on his next thread about how the TT will fry your cylinder #5, how the AA will work only if the installed by an Australian tech, how the Turner chip…

Please Bimport, confirm that this is your master plan?

PS: I installed the rear fog light switch. Am I doomed?

[Doccommando]

Originally Posted by Juggs

you moron.. shiv is selling a product! Even he has said himself not to mod if you are worried about your warrenty.

in sidespeak that means that he understands his product is detectable to one degree or another, he just cant say that for sake of his sales.

While i think the procede is a fantastic product, any mod can be used to void the warrenty of that part of your car - that's the obvious fact of it. BMW can detect any modifications to your car - i know this because i modded my e36 m3 ( obd2) and they still detected i had it chipped with a euro HFM the day before i took it into the shop to fix an electrical problem. Luckily one didnt have anything to do with the other so the honored the warrenty.

In "sidespeak" it actually means that he is keeping himself from being liable if someone for whatever reason has their warranty voided. No one can blame him because he's been very clear that he isn't responsible for voiding warranties. It's called avoiding legal issues and the threat of lawsuit.

It's very possible that the ECU remains blind to the Procede.

Either way, if you mod you have to be prepared for the worst.

[ATG]

Bimport is all about "be a man and face the consequences." Be honest and don't cheat on big corporations like BMW because they would never let down their faithful customers. Whatever they do is right, safe, and moral. Don't get under the hood of your BMW -- everything that is needed for enjoyable driving is already tucked under the hood. Don't make any attempts to interpret the warranty to suggest that BMW should cover failed parts -- that's a blasphemy and again not a manly thing. Just remember one mantra: mo-di-fi-ca-ti-ons void the warranty. Be sure to confess all of your car molestation sins to your local SA, but don't expect to get pardoned. Don't complain about your fuel pump -- it has been designed by BMW specifically to test the loyalty and morals of members of e90post.com. Amen.

[Doccommando]

Originally Posted by Dr_Dirt

I wonder if the TT can make the same claim, anyway Kudos goes out to Shiv.
BTW my 2001.5 S4 has had an APR chip (250hp to 318hp) for over 3 years and I never had ANY engine related failures or fuel pump issues. I have to believe that the 335 will not experience any ill effects related to either the TT or the Pro because of the similiar power gains.

The B5 S4 is actually a bad example. Earlier builds had turbo issues and syncro issues on a fairly regular basis. Something that will hopefully not crop up with BMW.

Also, it's much easier to blow a turbo than an engine. If one part was going to fail because of tuning it'd be the turbos way before the engine.

[Jaws]

Originally Posted by ATG

Bimport is all about "be a man and face the consequences." Be honest and don't cheat on big corporations like BMW because they would never let down their faithful customers. Whatever they do is right, safe, and moral. Don't get under the hood of your BMW -- everything that is needed for enjoyable driving is already tucked under the hood. Don't make any attempts to interpret the warranty to suggest that BMW should cover failed parts -- that's a blasphemy and again not a manly thing. Just remember one mantra: mo-di-fi-ca-ti-ons void the warranty. Be sure to confess all of your car molestation sins to your local SA, but don't expect to get pardoned. Don't complain about your fuel pump -- it has been designed by BMW specifically to test the loyalty and morals of members of e90post.com. Amen.

Great post!!!!:rocks:

[CoralRedPlz]

Originally Posted by bimport

Yes, end of story!

I am just glad this can be put to rest once and for all. No really, I know someone who knows someone who said that if BMW finds traces that you had the PROcede installed on your car they give you a free oil change.

P.S. Make sure that you demand that the dealer change your oil for free. If not, write a letter to BMW NA about not getting what you deserve.

i laughed.

[CASHBY]

Originally Posted by bimport

Yes, end of story!

I am just glad this can be put to rest once and for all. No really, I know someone who knows someone who said that if BMW finds traces that you had the PROcede installed on your car they give you a free oil change.

P.S. Make sure that you demand that the dealer change your oil for free. If not, write a letter to BMW NA about not getting what you deserve.

I wish I knew someone who knew you so I could give you five across the eye.

Jesus Bimport you need to get a life man, seriously! You have brought nothing to this forum but giving people grief for the the passion they have to mod their cars!

and till this day you can not give any HARD DATA showing that procede or any other mods such as TT, ehxuast, etc....thats been done to a 335, has caused any malfunctions to the car at all. PERIOD!

Your on an enthusiast site, and every thread talks about MODS done to cars.

Like I said before, go buy a PT Looser or a Minivan and drive carefully!

its one thing to give VALID information, and not just stupid speculations.

[BoostedBMW]

Originally Posted by ATG

Bimport is all about "be a man and face the consequences." Be honest and don't cheat on big corporations like BMW because they would never let down their faithful customers. Whatever they do is right, safe, and moral. Don't get under the hood of your BMW -- everything that is needed for enjoyable driving is already tucked under the hood. Don't make any attempts to interpret the warranty to suggest that BMW should cover failed parts -- that's a blasphemy and again not a manly thing. Just remember one mantra: mo-di-fi-ca-ti-ons void the warranty. Be sure to confess all of your car molestation sins to your local SA, but don't expect to get pardoned. Don't complain about your fuel pump -- it has been designed by BMW specifically to test the loyalty and morals of members of e90post.com. Amen.

I love the last line that you wrote. I'm also tired of hearing these people that post on here all the time about morals and the warranty. If you don't like to mod your car or have the desire to do so, that is fine, you can do whatever you would like with your own car. At the same time try to have respect for people who enjoy working on their own cars and modding them to suit their own tastes. The icing on the cake is that they will point out how we try to screw BMW and the dealerships, as if they are always opererating in our best interests.

[Vanderfan]

facts. He can instill fear when things are grey, but show him two 335i's that ran 12 hrs. of racing w/Proceed with no fuel pump failure and he is loathe to explain how this could be!

Same for this topic. No factual examples, no credentials to offer, just innuendo.

I am with the others Bimport.
Show us what you know based on fact.

And if you do not have facts to support your position, GO AWAY!

[sstarch1]

Aaaahhhhh...... i thought the ignore list would erase his existence from the internet world, yet i can see you guys quote him....and talk about him....
he is like a virus, a parasite, sucking the lifeblood out of everyone of us.