[DieselDiner]

Originally Posted by NiVeDh

(2) you can run a non-approved oil that has not been tested and certified by BMW, hoping that it will be good for the engine

My point is that BMW's own literature appears to give an option for non-tested oils (once out of warranty): API's SH classification. It could even be argued that LL01 and SH must overlap in their properties, since BMW recommends SH for its gas engines. If that presumption is true (and it should be), then running an SH oil should give one the comfort that the oil meets BMW's requirements. What do you think?

[DieselDiner]

Still waiting for someone to tell me where they are buying Pentosin in the U.S.!

[ManyMoonsAgo]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Reality does not change because of their technical ignorance. It really is sad that these people have no reasoning skills or technical knowledge. This is exactly the customer that the boutique oil purveyors can easily dupe for profit.

I am on-board with the notion of snuffing out misinformation spread on these forums, but when sweeping claims are made through personal attacks, it really does tarnish the entire tone of the conversation; at least in my eyes. To claim any individual has no reasoning skills is excessively melodramatic and frankly a bit ugly.

Want to hear a good 'duped for profit' story - four weeks ago I purchased a set of Forgestar F14 wheels for my 335i. As such, I started shopping for tires and narrowed the list down to two choices - Michelin's new Pilot Super Sports and Hankook's V12s.

My local BMW dealership sells both tires and as such, I gave my service advisor a ring to see what kind of price they could offer. The response from the dealership was that they could not sell me either tire because neither was a BMW approved tire for my 335i. They then listed the two BMW approved tires for my car - the Bridgestone RFT and the Michelin PS2 RFT. Talk about how having any lack of reasoning skills would set me up to be duped for profit...

[ManyMoonsAgo]

^^^ I am with you and I did not intend to single you out as the venom definitely flows in both directions when an oil debate flares up.

[acdHQK713K]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Another day and more technical babble by the boutique fanbois in denial. They have absolutely no technical basis for their unsupported beliefs but they continue to spew their beliefs. Reality does not change because of their technical ignorance. It really is sad that these people have no reasoning skills or technical knowledge. This is exactly the customer that the boutique oil purveyors can easily dupe for profit.

Every oil thread we go through the same circus act with those in denial, but reality does not change. They ask for FACTS but then they ignore them when presented.

FACT: BMW Requires LL-01 oils be used in gas engines operated in the U.S.

FACT: BMW has stated in writing that LL-04 oils can not be used in U.S. gas engines and they will void your engine warranty

FACT: BMW does extensive oil testing and determines the proper oil for your engine and makes it part of the warranty requirements

FACT: None of the boutique oils have BMW oil approval and should not be used as they will void your new engine warranty

FACT: None of the boutique fanbois have any objective, scientific LL-01 oil test data to support their beliefs that ANY of the boutique oils perform as well or better than BMW's approved LL-01 oils

These are the FACTS that the boutique fanbois chose to ignore as these FACTS refute their baseless beliefs. These FACTS won't stop them from continuing to post their baseless beliefs and making personal attacks however.

Progress! I agree with all of your facts except "extensive oil testing."

I have one more fact for you:

Neither you, nor anyone on this board, has bona fide research demonstrating superior protection of lets say M1 0w-40 when compared to Amsoil, RP, Redline. Therefore, it is not a fact that LL-01 provide superior protection when compared to boutique oils, something you continue to say is a fact. Until you produce the results of such comparison tests you should stop your deceptive posts.

Please stop insinuating that forum members are technically misinformed when you cannot grasp the rather simple concept in the previous paragraph.

[acdHQK713K]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

^^^ Still in denial, huh? The car company engineers and tribologist just makes up oil specs with no engine testing? Right. That's why they know LL-01 oils must be used in the U.S. with high sulfur fuels and that LL-04 can not be used here? You're in denial.

I'm certain that those engineers in Germany who I watch conducting the oil test find you opinion pretty ignorant. As I told you many posts ago - no where did I state that LL-01 oils were superior to boutique oils. I said that LL-01 oils are REQUIRED and that we do NOT know how the boutique oils perform until they have been subjected to the LL-01 oil sequence testing.

You insist on trying to twist what I said to support your crusade but it simply doesn't work. Unfortunately you ARE technically ignorant and you don't know what you don't know which is why you continue to argue. Sorry but that IS reality. I know you can't deal with it but you'll just have to learn to because reality is not going to change to match your beliefs.

If you every obtain BMW LL-01 oil test data for your favorite boutique oil - which you won't, post it. Until then you baseless claims are simply unsupported. I have asked over and over for the boutique oil purveyors to have their oils tested and certified - if they will pass. They refuse to do so and several of them admited to me their oils won't meet LL-01 standards/

No denial. Just openminded. At no point did I say they fabricated their test results.

You have watched people in Germany test oil? Fantastic, good for you. That's all it takes to be expert in the subject enough to tell forum members they are ignorant?

I've seen multiple appendectomies on TV. It doesn't make me anymore qualified to perform such a procedure than the next guy.

You didn't state LL-01 oils were superior? Let's post what you said once more:

"Amsoil might be OK for your lawn mower"

"Your OM will tell you exactly what oil must be used to maintain your warranty and more importantly - provide the proper lubrication for your BMW engine. Read and follow you OM to protect your engine and warranty.
"

"Apparently in BMW's testing LL-01 approved oils protect the engine better when high sulfur fuels are used."

"Until the boutique oil purveyors have their oils tested by BMW and approved - if they pass, they should not be used as they will void the engine warranty and can cause increased engine wear or serious damage"

"Until they receive BMW approval the boutique oils should not be used in BMW engines as they will void the engine warranty. If you don't care about your engine warranty or engine wear"


If you don't think those comments exude the belief that LL-01 oils are superior then you are more irrational than I first thought.

They have personally admitted to you they won't pass? Your posts sound more and more manufactured the more you type.

Saffola told me their oils would be more than sufficient. Who gives a rat's ass what some unnamed individual told you?

You are just another forum member with an inflated post count claiming to be a guru on a subject and yet has not one iota of irrefutable evidence to support all your quotes I have posted for a second time. You are no more of an expert in such matters than other members. You have proven you can regurgitate what BMW states, and nothing more. I can teach a 2 year old to do that

[acdHQK713K]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Show me the EXACT statement where I say "LL-01 oils are superior to boutique oils"?

You can't because I never did. You read things into my posts to suit your beliefs.

You are a comedian now too. Oil guru turned comedian extraordinaire.

[acdHQK713K]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

^^^ You really are making a fool of yourself. Time to move on. You're dismissed to go educate yourself.

Show me your technical credentials. Post a PDF of something, anything, that gives you the authority to call forum members technically illiterate.

Prove me wrong.

Trust me pal, I have more education than you can dream.

I feel a locked thread coming soon.

[vasillalov]

Guys,

Just agree to disagree

[possible335i2008]

We are arguing about oil...shiv really needs to publish part 3!!!!!

[acdHQK713K]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

^^^ You're posts clearly illustrate you have reading comprehension issues which prevent you from understanding that I never stated LL-01 oils were superior to boutique oils.

It's time for you to get a grip you have technical and reading deficiencies that you need to address before you'll ever be able to discuss the subject of engine oils intelligently.

No offense but this is reality.

We can agree to disagree. That's always been my position. It doesn't change reality howver.

If I had reading comprehension issues I would have had issues long before this thread. What you believe is reality is in fact a delusion.

You haven't posted anything to support your credentials and no research data has materialized to date. And you have the audacity to call our technical understanding into question? You seem to think I am devoted to these small oil companies. Let me take a picture of the oil in my garage and you tell me if I am a fanboy or however you spell it.

As far as I am concerned you are some guy you read through some posts on BITOG and suddenly believed he was an expert in such matters.

[acdHQK713K]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Your beliefs are the definition of DENIAL. The FACTS don't change because you don't believe them. We have already established the FACTS several posts above.

And I agreed with almost all of them. It is the concept of performance we disagree on. Neither of us can prove it one way or another.

It is not a fact that LL01 oils perform better, and it is not a fact that they perform worse.

That is where we stand.

[acdHQK713K]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Your beliefs are the definition of DENIAL. The FACTS don't change because you don't believe them. We have already established the FACTS several posts above.

I'm still waiting for you to post the exact phrase where you claim I stated "LL-01 oils were superior to boutique oils". Keep looking... Hint: It don't exist because I never said it.

"Amsoil might be OK for your lawn mower" --> a reasonable person would infer that your lawnmower takes a lesser quality of oil than a BMW. unless you own a Ferarri branded lawnmower.

"Your OM will tell you exactly what oil must be used to maintain your warranty and more importantly - provide the proper lubrication for your BMW engine. Read and follow you OM to protect your engine and warranty." --> again, you are saying that only these oils will provide proper protection/lubrication

"Apparently in BMW's testing LL-01 approved oils protect the engine better when high sulfur fuels are used." --> last i checked, the word "better" is a comparative term

"Until the boutique oil purveyors have their oils tested by BMW and approved - if they pass, they should not be used as they will void the engine warranty and can cause increased engine wear or serious damage --> pretty sure this a negative consequence

Just because you don't explicitly and expressly state a particular phrase, doesn't mean that your round about comments can't be inferred to mean the exact same things. Those are the very basics of law.

[acdHQK713K]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

^^^ You are actually confirming that you are reading things into my post that were not stated and that you then try to twist them to mean something I did not say. This is proof of your reading comprehension issues which you really need to work on. It will help you to actually understand what is stated not what you believe has been stated.

You really should give it a rest because you are just embarrassing yourself. I mean no harm and in fact hope you have gained some knowledge from this thread and will seek to learn more on the subject so you don't get duped by unscrupulous purveyors of oil.

Good Lord. Reading comprehension: "Some good reader strategies are predicting, connecting, inferring, summarizing, analyzing and critiquing."

Your lack of credentials, dearth of data, and attacks on the intelligence of forum members makes your posts little more than typical forum drivel.

[DieselDiner]

I'm interested in LL04, which unfortunately they don't seem to sell. I've been reading the specs on Pentosynth HC 5W-30, and have been thinking of trying it in my d.

[jimk]

This is LL04:

http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E90-335...sin/ES1884220/

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

ECS Tuning sells the Pentosin 0w-30 and 5w-30. The 0w-30 is stated as LL-01 approved and the 5w-30 looks to be also but you may want to confirm this with ECS. ECS also sells other Pentosin (VW/Audi) approved oils but they are not BMW LL-01 approved.

http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E90-335...ntosin/ES2165/

You've revealed your ignorance on oil once more.

1. using stuff written on websites to determine oil approvals
2. recommending the wrong weight of oil, since you preach the gospel according to BMW

BTW, Pentosin 5W-30 IS LL01 approved, not that it matters since its not Mobil 1 0W-40(Gods gift to oil). You know why I'm sure? I have some pentosin 5W-30 which I bought, and I can take a picture of the back label, if you want to dispute this.

Now on to some of your beliefs. So I never got a straight answer from you about oil for our cars. On every BMW, an oil part number is written on the veichle, as well as oil weight. On my 335I, I supposed to use CASTROL 5W-30, with a specific BMW 8-Code. My car was made in Germany, and after assembly they poured in EUROPEAN CASTROL EDGE 5W-30. Now where the heck did you get that it was ok to put in 0W-30, or even 0W-40? oh yes, you got mobil 1 0W-40, and Castrol import 0W-30(both "boutique-autozone-pepboys oils") from BMW North America's website. Those Goons, don't even know how to tell if a 335I has an oil cooler or not. I've called and spoken to those drones in Jersey. So since according to you I'm supposed to ignore what Ze Germans wrote on my car, and go by yankee marketing, then LL01 is all that matters, right? So since the part number on the E90 M3 is for castrol 10W-60 TWS, and its "LL01" approved, then why can't I use it in an N54, or N52? Since the part numbers, and oil weights written on all 3 cars are different but all LL01 approved? Most of the stuff you write on here does not make any sense at all, and since talking to you is feeding the troll, I'm not going to go back and forth with you, when you have no answers to questions about your baseless beliefs that I have brought up in countless, long oil thread debates. Doing a quick search, using your username, reveals countless arguments on oil, in all sections of the forum. I remember when you wrote about Mobil 1 0W-40 being on sale at autozone, and how you got laugh off in the general forums!

[vasillalov]

Ok,
Before you guys get into this any further about Pentosin, I think I should mention that there are THREE different kinds of Pentisin 5W-30. You need to be very careful which ones you buy as they have different formulations.

Here is the link to the technical data from Pentosin:
http://www.pentosin.net/pressrelease...luid_Guide.pdf

Page 5 of the PDF reveals that:

* Pentosin High Performance 5W-30 is LL-01 approved
* Pentosin Super Performance III 5W-30 is NOT LL-01 approved but has LL-04 approval
* Pentosin High Performance II 5W-40 is NOT LL-01 approved but has LL-04 approval

Finally, ECS Tuning DOES INDEED sell Pentosin oil that is LL-01 Approved:

http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/Pentosin/ES260854/

[vasillalov]

Speaking of Pentosin, I am bit hesitant to use it. They don't seem to be publishing enough technical data about that oil:

http://www.pentosin.net/pressrelease...HighPerf_2.pdf

There is no information about TBN for an example.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Ok,
Before you guys get into this any further about Pentosin, I think I should mention that there are THREE different kinds of Pentisin 5W-30. You need to be very careful which ones you buy as they have different formulations.

Here is the link to the technical data from Pentosin:
http://www.pentosin.net/pressrelease...luid_Guide.pdf

Page 5 of the PDF reveals that:

* Pentosin High Performance 5W-30 is LL-01 approved
* Pentosin Super Performance III 5W-30 is NOT LL-01 approved but has LL-04 approval
* Pentosin High Performance II 5W-40 is NOT LL-01 approved but has LL-04 approval

Finally, ECS Tuning DOES INDEED sell Pentosin oil that is LL-01 Approved:

http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/Pentosin/ES260854/

Do some research on LL's. Everything that is LL04, IS LL01, but nothing that is LL01, is LL04. LL04 was released in the year 2004, while LL01 was released in the year 2001. LL04 is LL01 approved, and has low SAP's, for diesel auto emission systems. The myth online, is that LL04 in the US is bad for gasoline engines. But thats kind of like BMW's "lifetime fluids" . The jury is still out on both.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Speaking of Pentosin, I am bit hesitant to use it. They don't seem to be publishing enough technical data about that oil:

http://www.pentosin.net/pressrelease...HighPerf_2.pdf

There is no information about TBN for an example.

Pentosin 5W-30, is doing just fine in my FSI Audi A6, which oddly enough, destroys oil more than my 335I. I've now bought this fluid for my 335I, and I'm going to run it next. Ironically, the best oil that my 335I has seen, so far is Total 5W-30 Ineo MC3, which oddly enough is LL-04. It kept temps lowest, even compared to the stealership oils. My real world findings on this are similar to Mr. 5's, which is why he started using I think Valvoline 5W-40, also LL04 approved.

[DieselDiner]

Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115

The myth online, is that LL04 in the US is bad for gasoline engines.

Here's the BMW TIS that addresses the use of LL-04 in gas engines. Read the final paragraph in "Affected Vehicles":