[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

I think this is the kind of thing that it's going to be hard to make the case for. You can have a poorly mapped PSO setup just as easily as you can have a poorly mapped PPS setup. You'd have to have someone who optimized both and frankly few of the PPS guys have even bothered to have their piggyback run the show yet. The PROcede isn't capable of running a high current PWM signal out and I doubt they would do the programming to have the PROcede interface a proper controller just for testing, seeing as they didn't even bother to do that with their old production kit.

Mike

Funny stuff. The reason that directly controlling the pump was not done (and it was considered as it only requires a $5 mosfet to do this) is that metering flow by adjusting system pressure gives a very narrow dynamic range. Ie,
the actual meth flow at 200psi is only 40% more than what it is at 100psi. And anything less than 100psi doesn't really atomize so well. So what is the point of "mapping" a PPS system if it has such poor tuning granularity?

Seriously. I'm interested.

Also, in reference to my question from yesterday regarding solenoid frequency (that went unanswered), do you know why running at 400hz didn't work so well Coolingmist?

[Skydive]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

I think this is the kind of thing that it's going to be hard to make the case for. You can have a poorly mapped PSO setup just as easily as you can have a poorly mapped PPS setup... <blahblahblah>

Mike

You do understand that your attempt to manipulate the nomenclature by means of your own fantasy about pulse width modulation being the same weather or not it is controlling a pump or a solenoid makes you look completely ignorant, right?

I'm relatively new to the N54 as a tuning platform, but I'm certainly not new to forced induction, methanol, and fuel injection systems. I wouldn't even buy a pair of socks from a guy who can't seem to differentiate between these two control implementations.

...or is it simply that you are hoping that by confusing the issue, you will be able to sufficiently mislead your own customer base and prevent them from spending money with a competitor who has developed an elegant offering which may be worth the price of admission?

I don't know which is worse.

[Rita@Vishnu]

Originally Posted by Skydive

You do understand that your attempt to manipulate the nomenclature by means of your own fantasy about pulse width modulation being the same weather or not it is controlling a pump or a solenoid makes you look completely ignorant, right?

I'm relatively new to the N54 as a tuning platform, but I'm certainly not new to forced induction, methanol, and fuel injection systems. I wouldn't even buy a pair of socks from a guy who can't seem to differentiate between these two control implementations.

...or is it simply that you are hoping that by confusing the issue, you will be able to sufficiently mislead your own customer base and prevent them from spending money with a competitor who has developed an elegant offering which may be worth the price of admission?

I don't know which is worse.

Damn!

[EastBayE90]

Originally Posted by Skydive

You do understand that your attempt to manipulate the nomenclature by means of your own fantasy about pulse width modulation being the same weather or not it is controlling a pump or a solenoid makes you look completely ignorant, right?

I'm relatively new to the N54 as a tuning platform, but I'm certainly not new to forced induction, methanol, and fuel injection systems. I wouldn't even buy a pair of socks from a guy who can't seem to differentiate between these two control implementations.

...or is it simply that you are hoping that by confusing the issue, you will be able to sufficiently mislead your own customer base and prevent them from spending money with a competitor who has developed an elegant offering which may be worth the price of admission?

I don't know which is worse.

You the man Skydive hahahahah

[jpsimon]

Originally Posted by Skydive

You do understand that your attempt to manipulate the nomenclature by means of your own fantasy about pulse width modulation being the same weather or not it is controlling a pump or a solenoid makes you look completely ignorant, right?

I'm relatively new to the N54 as a tuning platform, but I'm certainly not new to forced induction, methanol, and fuel injection systems. I wouldn't even buy a pair of socks from a guy who can't seem to differentiate between these two control implementations.

...or is it simply that you are hoping that by confusing the issue, you will be able to sufficiently mislead your own customer base and prevent them from spending money with a competitor who has developed an elegant offering which may be worth the price of admission?

I don't know which is worse.

i enjoy this post

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by gbreeE90

How professional

If it a) helps people understand the differences between PWM and PPS meth control and b) makes it harder for those trying to deceive consumers, then I think it's a fine sig. Win/Win as they say.

[Forcefed3]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

If it a) helps people understand the differences between PWM and PPS meth control and b) makes it harder for those trying to deceive consumers, then I think it's a fine sig. Win/Win as they say.

I think it would be fine to just say it in a more professional way, yes. But hey, you run the company, not me.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Funny stuff. The reason that directly controlling the pump was not done (and it was considered as it only requires a $5 mosfet to do this) is that metering flow by adjusting system pressure gives a very narrow dynamic range. Ie,
the actual meth flow at 200psi is only 40% more than what it is at 100psi. And anything less than 100psi doesn't really atomize so well. So what is the point of "mapping" a PPS system if it has such poor tuning granularity?

Seriously. I'm interested.

Also, in reference to my question from yesterday regarding solenoid frequency (that went unanswered), do you know why running at 400hz didn't work so well Coolingmist?

I can't really speak for CM. Just forward any super technical questions you have re: their products to David @ info@coolingmist.com and I'm sure he will help you. Higher pressure levels do allow for better atomization. Which is why running a 150psi pump with a solenoid that has something like an 70-80psi pressure drop isn't the best all around solution IMHO. No wonder you were only running 14psi on the road race course!

On PPS mapping you thought enough of it to make your customers buy the expensive Labonte PPS controller. Now with the PSO mapping it seems like its being over-hyped to justify the extra profit margin. If your customers are willing to pay it god bless them. Realistically PROcede customers will be buying your kit and JB4 customers will be buying BMS' so I don't see what all the fuss is about anyway. My only real objection is to the misleading PWM naming, and the notion that PSO is exclusive to Aquamist. It's much easier technically to PWM a solenoid than a pump which is the reason you're doing it that way in the first place. And anyone can order an Aquamist solenoid or use one of the superior options out there.

Mike

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Skydive

You do understand that your attempt to manipulate the nomenclature by means of your own fantasy about pulse width modulation being the same weather or not it is controlling a pump or a solenoid makes you look completely ignorant, right?

I'm relatively new to the N54 as a tuning platform, but I'm certainly not new to forced induction, methanol, and fuel injection systems. I wouldn't even buy a pair of socks from a guy who can't seem to differentiate between these two control implementations.

...or is it simply that you are hoping that by confusing the issue, you will be able to sufficiently mislead your own customer base and prevent them from spending money with a competitor who has developed an elegant offering which may be worth the price of admission?

I don't know which is worse.

The funny part is you fail to understand that Aquamist has hijacked PWM and invented PPS nomenclatures for their marketing purposes. All progressive meth kits are PWM based. I'll continue to use the PSO and PPS nomenclatures as they most accurately describe the differences. Progressive solenoid vs. progressive pump. In reality, the PPS also uses a fairly high speed solenoid that can be pulsed at low speeds. Regardless if you feel like paying more for an Aquamist kit that has had the controller removed from the box and a Vishnu sticker placed on the pump no one is going to stop you. It certainly isn't my place to convince you otherwise. But I will say if you are running a JB4 there are less expensive equally effective options coming soon.

Mike

[Skydive]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The funny part is you fail to understand that Aquamist has hijacked PWM and invented PPS nomenclatures for their marketing purposes. All progressive meth kits are PWM based. I'll continue to use the PSO and PPS nomenclatures as they most accurately describe the differences. Progressive solenoid vs. progressive pump. In reality, the PPS also uses a fairly high speed solenoid that can be pulsed at low speeds. Regardless if you feel like paying more for an Aquamist kit that has had the controller removed from the box and a Vishnu sticker placed on the pump no one is going to stop you. It certainly isn't my place to convince you otherwise. But I will say if you are running a JB4 there are less expensive equally effective options coming soon.

Mike

Do you REALLY fail to understand that modulating pump speed by means of a pulse width signal is not the same as modulating a constant pressure flow by means of a pulse width modulated solenoid?

I don't believe you do. Without respect to the underlying benefits of each implementation, it is asinine to purport that both systems are pulse width modulated. In case you ARE that stupid, I'll distill it down for you. PPS systems which provide a few discrete pump speeds are pressure modulated among a few varying pressures. Only the signal which controls the pump speed is pulse width controlled, rather than modulated, whereas a solenoid which is controlled directly via pulse width modulation can control flow much more directly, and to a higher degree. The former is pulse width controlled and pressure modulated. The later is pulse width controlled and pulse width modulated.

...but you know all of this, which is why you are apparently developing a similar solution, and hoping to obfuscate the differences in the meantime.

Again... I wouldn't even buy a pair of socks for someone who is either totally ignorant and pretending to be a professional, or just totally dishonest.

...and I have yet to choose my tuning partner or my methanol delivery system, so if you believe I am bias by way of my ego and choices already made, you are incorrect.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

I can't really speak for CM. Just forward any super technical questions you have re: their products to David @ info@coolingmist.com and I'm sure he will help you. Higher pressure levels do allow for better atomization. Which is why running a 150psi pump with a solenoid that has something like an 70-80psi pressure drop isn't the best all around solution IMHO. No wonder you were only running 14psi on the road race course!

On PPS mapping you thought enough of it to make your customers buy the expensive Labonte PPS controller. Now with the PSO mapping it seems like its being over-hyped to justify the extra profit margin. If your customers are willing to pay it god bless them. Realistically PROcede customers will be buying your kit and JB4 customers will be buying BMS' so I don't see what all the fuss is about anyway. My only real objection is to the misleading PWM naming, and the notion that PSO is exclusive to Aquamist. It's much easier technically to PWM a solenoid than a pump which is the reason you're doing it that way in the first place. And anyone can order an Aquamist solenoid or use one of the superior options out there.

Mike

Now I know this is Terry speaking because he's good at spreading nonsense through the mouthpiece of others. He also loses his ability to debate tech clearly when he works himself into a corner.

First, stop with this PSO talk. It's a shameless attempt at trying to deceive the uninformed. There is nothing progressive about solenoid opening. It's either open or closed. I know you like making up terms for your own benefit (and at the expense of others). But do yourself a favor and stop. I feel embarrassed for you at this point.

Second, I don't need to forward any technical questions to David@coolingmist. He was asking a public forum how a mechanical relay worked not too long ago. A technical guru he is not. My question about the 400hz operational frequency was to you. Specifically, asking you if you know how ridiculous it was to operate a meth solenoid at 400hz? And then to explain why CM's PWM kit was such a colossal failure.

I'll do this right now:
At a 50% duty cycle, that solenoid is open 50% of the time and closed 50% of the time. If you are running a solenoid at 400hz, that means it is opening and closing 400 times a second. It takes a finite amount of time to move from an open state to a closed state. And visa versa. Especially with 200psi pushing against (or behind) the pintel of the solenoid. So at 400hz, you have a 2.5ms pulse duration. And if a valve takes say, 1ms to open and then another 1ms to close, you're left with a dynamic range of just 1:1.5 (1ms to 1.5ms).

This would be WORSE than a conventional PPS system. So of course it was a failure.

By comparison, our PWM system as a dynamic range of 3ms to 37ms, or ~12:1.

Lastly, this talk of pressure drop through the solenoid is absurd. At least for those who understand that water/meth isn't a compressible fluid. If you hook a simple pressure gauge between the solenoid and nozzle and pulse the solenoid at 50% DC, you will the pressure needle read approx half of the solenoids inlet pressure. But that is because the needle can't respond quick enough so it averages the pressure between both solenoid states, not because the sheer presence of a solenoid dropped the pressure in half. Basic understanding of fluid dynamics would show that every squirt of meth has full pressure behind it. Or, more accurately, close to full pressure once you account for static hose/nozzle/solenoid losses that would exist in a PPS kit as well).

Either you are ignorant or dishonest. I'm not going to guess which one.

Shiv

EDIT: Here's a good thread from the RX7 forum where David@coolingmist claims his nozzles defy the laws of physics: http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=820079

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Sniz

shit doesnt change around here much huh?

Aint it the truth....

[bmw335 power]

Wow... Here is a guy that is knowledgeable about what he is saying and understand the basics of how the system works. I don't post much but we need more people like skydive!!! I am sure Vishnu did their testing regarding the PWM system. Also I am sure they gather enough information from Aquamist and working with the owner to supply the best kit for our application. Sure there are many universal kits but the key here with Vishnu is that they built a kit for our car not the universal market. Also I've been working with methanol for quite some time and what in the hell is "PSO" I never even heard that term before. There is a reason why JB always tries to copy everything that Vishnu does and better yet they try to copy and then undercut. Yes I bought many Vishnu products and I can say the service is great. Yes I have waited patiently many times for the things I ordered but I never had an issue. If you have an issue I am sure Robert or Shiv or take care of you. After reading this thread still I have to say I am saving money for a "Vishnu PWM Meth kit"!!! The results I've seen so far is incredible. All these PWM vs PPS stuff I am sure Shiv is going to do a comparison between the two just to shut some people up. To say the lease some people need to do more research and understand HOW pwm and pps work first before posting a whole bunch of crap. Better yet they should PM Skydive first so he can educated people some of the basics!!!!

Originally Posted by Skydive

You do understand that your attempt to manipulate the nomenclature by means of your own fantasy about pulse width modulation being the same weather or not it is controlling a pump or a solenoid makes you look completely ignorant, right?

I'm relatively new to the N54 as a tuning platform, but I'm certainly not new to forced induction, methanol, and fuel injection systems. I wouldn't even buy a pair of socks from a guy who can't seem to differentiate between these two control implementations.

...or is it simply that you are hoping that by confusing the issue, you will be able to sufficiently mislead your own customer base and prevent them from spending money with a competitor who has developed an elegant offering which may be worth the price of admission?

I don't know which is worse.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Skydive

Do you REALLY fail to understand that modulating pump speed by means of a pulse width signal is not the same as modulating a constant pressure flow by means of a pulse width modulated solenoid?

I don't believe you do. Without respect to the underlying benefits of each implementation, it is asinine to purport that both systems are pulse width modulated. In case you ARE that stupid, I'll distill it down for you. PPS systems which provide a few discrete pump speeds are pressure modulated among a few varying pressures. Only the signal which controls the pump speed is pulse width controlled, rather than modulated, whereas a solenoid which is controlled directly via pulse width modulation can control flow much more directly, and to a higher degree. The former is pulse width controlled and pressure modulated. The later is pulse width controlled and pulse width modulated.

...but you know all of this, which is why you are apparently developing a similar solution, and hoping to obfuscate the differences in the meantime.

Again... I wouldn't even buy a pair of socks for someone who is either totally ignorant and pretending to be a professional, or just totally dishonest.

...and I have yet to choose my tuning partner or my methanol delivery system, so if you believe I am bias by way of my ego and choices already made, you are incorrect.

Clearly you have your own personal agenda so I won't bother trying to stand in your way. But for those wondering what PWM means here is the Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-width_modulation

"Pulse-width modulation (PWM), or pulse-duration modulation (PDM), is a commonly used technique for controlling power to inertial electrical devices, made practical by modern electronic power switches."

You can PWM a pump, a solenoid, or even a light bulb. In this case one kit PWM drives a pump (PPS) and the other kit PWM drives a solenoid (PSO). Both kits have a solenoid that opens or closes instantly as needed. Those here who have used these meth kits, even the ones with overly large nozzles running basic on/off switches, have posted how well the closed loop fueling accepts any amount of methanol at partial throttle. Maybe you use a little more methanol and a little less petrol with a basic on/off switch but drivability is perfect. Then introduce the ability to PWM the pump at partial throttle and it's proven to be perfect. How many posts do you see from Vishnu customers complaining about part throttle problems with their Vishnu PPS kits?

The real reason behind this change comes down to simple logistics. The PROcede doesn't have a high current PWM output. Making a new PROCede board just for meth kits isn't practical. So the easiest solution is to replace the speed limit defeat input and output with a flow sensor input and meth solenoid output. The rest is just marketing.....

Mike

[Skydive]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The real reason behind this change comes down to simple logistics. The PROcede doesn't have a high current PWM output. Making a new PROCede board just for meth kits isn't practical. So the easiest solution is to replace the speed limit defeat input and output with a flow sensor input and meth solenoid output. The rest is just marketing.....

Mike

...which is why you keep saying we should wait for you to introduce your competing product. For marketing? You just stepped on your own penis.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Skydive

...which is why you keep saying we should wait for you to introduce your competing product. For marketing? You just stepped on your own penis.

I'm not asking you to do anything. Vishnu customers should buy the Vishnu kit as the BMS kit won't be compatible with the PROcede. Just like the Vishnu kit isn't compatible with JB4. I'm not sure what Cobb customer are going to do but neither kit will work for them!

Mike

[Skydive]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

I'm not asking you to do anything. Vishnu customers should buy the Vishnu kit as the BMS kit won't be compatible with the PROcede. Just like the Vishnu kit isn't compatible with JB4. I'm not sure what Cobb customer are going to do but neither kit will work for them!

Mike

I take it back. Now I think you're dishonest *and* stupid.

[Brey335i]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning

I'm not asking you to do anything. Vishnu customers should buy the Vishnu kit as the BMS kit won't be compatible with the PROcede. Just like the Vishnu kit isn't compatible with JB4. I'm not sure what Cobb customer are going to do but neither kit will work for them!

Mike

COBB customers will save a few hundred and use Devil's Own or Coolingmist haha

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

I'm not asking you to do anything. Vishnu customers should buy the Vishnu kit as the BMS kit won't be compatible with the PROcede.

This is about the only truthful/non-misleading thing that you (Terry) have said in this thread.

[pwm@vishnu]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

... But for those wondering what PWM means here is the Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-width_modulation

"Pulse-width modulation (PWM), or pulse-duration modulation (PDM), is a commonly used technique for controlling power to inertial electrical devices, made practical by modern electronic power switches."

You can PWM a pump, a solenoid, or even a light bulb. In this case one kit PWM drives a pump (PPS) and the other kit PWM drives a solenoid (PSO). Mike
.
.

Mike,

It appeared that you do not know different device responses differently to a PWM signal.

- A water pump with a high mass can not tell the difference between a 400Hz pwm signal and a variable 12V power supply. A PWM solenoid will respond well with a ~50Hz PWM signal but will not work well at all with a variable 12V power supply.

The best way to explain this by comparing the effect on a light bulb (pump) and a xexon strobe light (valve)…

Light bulb: low duty cycle = low light level = low pressure = low atomisation

Xenon Strobe light: low duty cycle = shorter burst of high intensity light = short burst of highly atomised spray.

I am still undecided if you are trying to fudge the issue to mislead the uninformed or you just don’t have a clue. As skydive commented, which is worse? I would first question the source from where you were fed before making you look more and more silly in public.

pwm

[themyst]

Cobb = regular pps kit + Failsafe/boost bypass solenoid = win

[RambleJ]

Originally Posted by themyst

Cobb = regular pps kit + Failsafe/boost bypass solenoid = win

Thats what I am going to do with my flash.