[ska///235i]

+1

We'll be 50-60+ years old by the time we pay-off our debts.....you don't need alot of money, you just need alot of credit

Originally Posted by John 070

Yep, my nominal amount has even skyrocketed since 2k. But true, my salary has not kept pace and I had more buying power in 2k on paper and at highs, than I do today, short of one job-change. When I look at my SS summary, I'll see a few years of gradual increases, then a large one, gradual again, etc.

I just think everything here looks so good on paper. Not only does our govt. borrow into oblivion, how about ourselves? Many people don't even own the cars they drive, they lease. Me? I borrowed nearly 25k to get the 335 coupe. The cash I put down could have purchased a 2k7 Honda Accord EX 4cyl. outright. How about mortgages that are solidly over 5k per month, or couples spending 55% on their income for housing?

But when all is said and done, seems like it could only happen in the good ol' USA....

[Carnage]

Originally Posted by ska

+1

We'll be 50-60+ years old by the time we pay-off our debts.....you don't need alot of money, you just need alot of credit

That's assuming they actually pay off their debts, by the time we hit 70 most people will probably be dying in debt.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by chbrules

Thanks, China.

Right now they're dangerous, living by their own rules. But there are consequences--look at all the pets that died or contracted illness because of what they did. They put an illegal substance into the animal feed, illegal by our standards, not theirs, which is to fake out a laboratory analysis when the animal feed people test the product in a lab. Makes them think there is protein when there isn't, and many times cheaper than real protein. They may be rich and powerful, but I don't envy their thinking and the way they value rules, be it spoken or unspoken.

[GJR]

Originally Posted by SteveMD

Waaaaagh! Now excuse me, I have three garage doors to paint.

I grew up in London and with the exception of the pubs, you can shove it.

[bimmin]

Originally Posted by chbrules

Don't want to spark a debate here, but the whole global warming hype is a scam. Arctic core samples, sunspot records, the mean temperature of neighboring planets rising, and the historical temperature records, and atmospheric gas records support the theory that this is just another astronomical event in a cycle of repeating events. The mean temperature on earth was 4F higher than it is now back in medieval times. Just 30 years ago we thought we were going into a new ice age, which the historical data would suggest we really are.

Wow, do you really believe that? I'm alway so shocked when I hear someone say something like global warming is a scam. Believing in global warming is not like believing in aliens. At this point, not believing in global warming is like believing the world is flat.

[E91AWD]

Originally Posted by chbrules

Don't want to spark a debate here, but the whole global warming hype is a scam. Arctic core samples, sunspot records, the mean temperature of neighboring planets rising, and the historical temperature records, and atmospheric gas records support the theory that this is just another astronomical event in a cycle of repeating events. The mean temperature on earth was 4F higher than it is now back in medieval times. Just 30 years ago we thought we were going into a new ice age, which the historical data would suggest we really are.

This position is clearly a good argument that there is no such thing as Evolution. However, I don't think it adds anything to support the faith in Itellegent Design.

[ganeil]

Originally Posted by bimmin

Wow, do you really believe that? I'm alway so shocked when I hear someone say something like global warming is a scam. Believing in global warming is not like believing in aliens. At this point, not believing in global warming is like believing the world is flat.

How do you figure? There is conclusive evidence that the world is round. Is there any conclusive evidence that man is causing the globe to warm?

There are computer models that support the hypothesis but the results of those models fluctuate wildly depending on the data input especially as concerns water vapor.

The ice core sample data that plays such a prominent role in the global warming theory now shows that the increases in atmospheric CO2 follow the temperature increases rather than precede them. This would be difficult if atmospheric CO2 were the cause of the temperature increases.

[ElCapitan]

Originally Posted by ganeil

How do you figure? There is conclusive evidence that the world is round. Is there any conclusive evidence that man is causing the globe to warm?

Some things are easier to prove than others. There is also no conclusive evidence that we have no part in the global warming cause. When it comes to the sustaining capacity of the Earth to support life, I prefer being on the cautious side. What could it do wrong? Slow the economy? I rather take the chance of having a lower economy and a more liveable planet for me and the future generations than stand and wait for undeniable evidence. Time is a factor.

Originally Posted by ganeil

There are computer models that support the hypothesis but the results of those models fluctuate wildly depending on the data input especially as concerns water vapor.

The ice core sample data that plays such a prominent role in the global warming theory now shows that the increases in atmospheric CO2 follow the temperature increases rather than precede them. This would be difficult if atmospheric CO2 were the cause of the temperature increases.

Why take a chance? I would rather do corrections for nothing than just stand there and do nothing while the situation is getting worst. I believe the evidence we have is enough to sart doing something about it. Environnemental friendly change will have to be done at one point or another. It won't become easier with time and we can always find excuses not to clean the planet. It is time to do something.

[ganeil]

Originally Posted by ElCapitan

Some things are easier to prove than others. There is also no conclusive evidence that we have no part in the global warming cause. When it comes to the sustaining capacity of the Earth to support life, I prefer being on the cautious side. What could it do wrong? Slow the economy? I rather take the chance of having a lower economy and a more liveable planet for me and the future generations than stand and wait for undeniable evidence. Time is a factor.

You are right, it is exceedingly hard to prove a negative.

You also have an interesting perspective for someone who drives an E46 330xi, E46 M3, and a E91 328xiT. I am sure that you purchase your carbon offsets from Al Gore's company to make up for your fossil fuel usage.

Any action we take has costs and benefits. Are you saying you are not at all interested that the costs associated with slowing the world's economy and sentencing millions of people to abject poverty have real and meaningful benefits?

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by ganeil

You are right, it is exceedingly hard to prove a negative.

You also have an interesting perspective for someone who drives an E46 330xi, E46 M3, and a E91 328xiT. I am sure that you purchase your carbon offsets from Al Gore's company to make up for your fossil fuel usage.

Any action we take has costs and benefits. Are you saying you are not at all interested that the costs associated with slowing the world's economy and sentencing millions of people to abject poverty have real and meaningful benefits?

Why do you have to involve f'n politics and politicians (Gore) in every day's life??? It is very simple, the globe and the weather trend is getting warmer and there is no dispute over it. The Eco systems are moving more north (in northern hemisphere), temp averages are way above previous, the weather is definitely more violent than it was in ththe 20th century.
You can believe whatever you want but it is time to drop the politics game and crap and invest more into this matter ASAP...because we may be too late...

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by ganeil

You are right, it is exceedingly hard to prove a negative.

You also have an interesting perspective for someone who drives an E46 330xi, E46 M3, and a E91 328xiT. I am sure that you purchase your carbon offsets from Al Gore's company to make up for your fossil fuel usage.

Any action we take has costs and benefits. Are you saying you are not at all interested that the costs associated with slowing the world's economy and sentencing millions of people to abject poverty have real and meaningful benefits?

Ah, for the cost...I forgot how wisely 1/2 trillion of $ was invested since 2003... Talking about the investment...

[ElCapitan]

Originally Posted by ganeil

You are right, it is exceedingly hard to prove a negative.

You also have an interesting perspective for someone who drives an E46 330xi, E46 M3, and a E91 328xiT. I am sure that you purchase your carbon offsets from Al Gore's company to make up for your fossil fuel usage.

Any action we take has costs and benefits. Are you saying you are not at all interested that the costs associated with slowing the world's economy and sentencing millions of people to abject poverty have real and meaningful benefits?

I don't drive all my cars at the same time and therefore keep them from getting too used (wear on catalytic converters and other system contributing to lower emission). BMW are very efficient and are a more ecologic choice than a lot (not all) of other crap out there. I compost, recycle and watch my energy consumption. I fail to see what is your point is?

Have you considered the health care costs implication of raising asthma, airborn allergy and other health problem "possibly" linked to a depreciating quality of living environment? Oh wait, we have wait undisputable proof and countless more polution victims that climate change might have something to do with this. Environmental choices are good. Are you putting a price tag on this world's future? And if so how much is it worth to you and the coming generations? Ecological choices haven't bankrupt any nations yet and I doubt it would start.

I have to admit you are more skilled at this e-debating than most, including myself.

[turbocoins]

Originally Posted by dr325i

Why do you have to involve f'n politics and politicians (Gore) in every day's life??? It is very simple, the globe and the weather trend is getting warmer and there is no dispute over it. The Eco systems are moving more north (in northern hemisphere), temp averages are way above previous, the weather is definitely more violent than it was in ththe 20th century.
You can believe whatever you want but it is time to drop the politics game and crap and invest more into this matter ASAP...because we may be too late...

When you say invest, it seems that you believe that we can stop it. I am not arguing politics at all. It seems that if it is a natural phenomenon (as I believe), then there is no "investment" that will change it. The evidence that I have reviewed does not lead me to believe that we (humans) are responsible for the phenomenon, which has clearly occurred previously. I am certainly for doing my part, and would encourage others to do theirs, to improve the Earth. However, the hype, and I do mean hype, regarding global warming is not a scientific conclusion. It is an opinion based upon the facts available to us. Look at your own posts. You seem to imply that the facts--the globe is warming at this moment in history--somehow implies that this time it is because of humans. I haven't found that the connection is established.

By the way, I have been the chairman of the research institutional review board in my community for years, so I am no stranger to research and analysis. I also think that it would be a shame if there IS a connection, and we ignore it. Nevertheless, at the present time, I find the belief that we can in some way change the natural course of weather and the earth a stretch. I will gladly change my opinion in the fact of evidence to the contrary. And I certainly respect you for your opinion and your heartfelt wish to improve the Earth. I share that opinion.

[ElCapitan]

Originally Posted by turbocoins

When you say invest, it seems that you believe that we can stop it. I am not arguing politics at all. It seems that if it is a natural phenomenon (as I believe), then there is no "investment" that will change it. The evidence that I have reviewed does not lead me to believe that we (humans) are responsible for the phenomenon, which has clearly occurred previously. I am certainly for doing my part, and would encourage others to do theirs, to improve the Earth. However, the hype, and I do mean hype, regarding global warming is not a scientific conclusion. It is an opinion based upon the facts available to us. Look at your own posts. You seem to imply that the facts--the globe is warming at this moment in history--somehow implies that this time it is because of humans. I haven't found that the connection is established.

By the way, I have been the chairman of the research institutional review board in my community for years, so I am no stranger to research and analysis. I also think that it would be a shame if there IS a connection, and we ignore it. Nevertheless, at the present time, I find the belief that we can in some way change the natural course of weather and the earth a stretch. I will gladly change my opinion in the fact of evidence to the contrary. And I certainly respect you for your opinion and your heartfelt wish to improve the Earth. I share that opinion.

I hope you are right. I would rather be wrong and do social ecological changes for nothing than be right and possible our world become a liveless desert.

[ganeil]

Originally Posted by dr325i

Why do you have to involve f'n politics and politicians (Gore) in every day's life??? It is very simple, the globe and the weather trend is getting warmer and there is no dispute over it. The Eco systems are moving more north (in northern hemisphere), temp averages are way above previous, the weather is definitely more violent than it was in ththe 20th century.
You can believe whatever you want but it is time to drop the politics game and crap and invest more into this matter ASAP...because we may be too late...

Forty years ago the trend was in the opposite direction and before that it was heading up as well. All that proves is the climate is dynamic and changes over time. Maybe you have heard of the ice ages and the thaws that followed them.

There is absolutely no evidence that the weather was more violent in the 20th century, where do you get this stuff?

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by turbocoins

When you say invest, it seems that you believe that we can stop it. I am not arguing politics at all. It seems that if it is a natural phenomenon (as I believe), then there is no "investment" that will change it. The evidence that I have reviewed does not lead me to believe that we (humans) are responsible for the phenomenon, which has clearly occurred previously. I am certainly for doing my part, and would encourage others to do theirs, to improve the Earth. However, the hype, and I do mean hype, regarding global warming is not a scientific conclusion. It is an opinion based upon the facts available to us. Look at your own posts. You seem to imply that the facts--the globe is warming at this moment in history--somehow implies that this time it is because of humans. I haven't found that the connection is established.

By the way, I have been the chairman of the research institutional review board in my community for years, so I am no stranger to research and analysis. I also think that it would be a shame if there IS a connection, and we ignore it. Nevertheless, at the present time, I find the belief that we can in some way change the natural course of weather and the earth a stretch. I will gladly change my opinion in the fact of evidence to the contrary. And I certainly respect you for your opinion and your heartfelt wish to improve the Earth. I share that opinion.

Exactly, IF it is our driven phenomenon, an investment would pay off. Sitting and arguing politics will not. If it is the natural cycle, we can't do anything there...just ride it.
I would accept it as a natural thing if it were going slower and more gradual. It is happening way too fast and the levels are way too high + we're at the peak of a major industrial revolution = all that added, I cannot imagine that we are not heavily contributing to it.

We gambled billions of $ for other (stupid) things, we should gamble a bit for our kid's future...

[ElCapitan]

Originally Posted by ganeil

Forty years ago the trend was in the opposite direction and before that it was heading up as well. All that proves is the climate is dynamic and changes over time. Maybe you have heard of the ice ages and the thaws that followed them.

There is absolutely no evidence that the weather was more violent in the 20th century, where do you get this stuff?

There is some evidence that shows that the current warming is more rapid than in the last 600 million years. You prefer to not believe these evidences because you place more values on evidence that support conclusions. Someone is wrong and I hope it is me and the people that think we (human) are responsible for it. Better safe than sorry. The stakes are too high.

[turbocoins]

Originally Posted by ElCapitan

I hope you are right. I would rather be wrong and do social ecological changes for nothing than be right and possible our world become a liveless desert.

Let me clarify: I am in no way discouraging anyone from doing their part to improve the Earth. In fact, you will see in my post quite the opposite recommendation. However, I am discouraging others from championing their opinions as fact. The fire and brimstone indoctrination of others seems unfair to me. The activities that you, and others, condone to improve the earth are worthwhile and helpful, at least in a small way. It is the conclusion that these activities may change the course of history that is clearly unproven IMO. I am in no way opposing those actions, and I, in fact, applaud you for them.

[turbocoins]

I think that I am agreeing with your premise to do our part to improve the Earth. I think that we need to separate fact from opinion in our arguments however. You are all on the right track, IMO.

[De90man]

There are many millions of cars here in the US...we finance each other through our group buying power.

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by ganeil

Forty years ago the trend was in the opposite direction and before that it was heading up as well. All that proves is the climate is dynamic and changes over time. Maybe you have heard of the ice ages and the thaws that followed them.

There is absolutely no evidence that the weather was more violent in the 20th century, where do you get this stuff?

mybe for having a family in FL that lived there for the 1920's???
In last 5 years, there were 5+ major storms in the Gulf of Mex, and over FL. Did not happen before.

The whole country is under a heavy drought for last few years -- in TX we're not allowed to water lawns (except once or wtice/week) for last two years...was not the case before...

My dad owned the same piece of land last 40 years, and told me that never before he had to mow the grass before May -- last few years -- in March...

And so on...
THe evidence is overwhelming that there is a warming trend caused by...???

[ganeil]

Originally Posted by ElCapitan

Have you considered the health care costs implication of raising asthma, airborn allergy and other health problem "possibly" linked to a depreciating quality of living environment? Oh wait, we have wait undisputable proof and countless more polution victims that climate change might have something to do with this. Environmental choices are good. Are you putting a price tag on this world's future? And if so how much is it worth to you and the coming generations? Ecological choices haven't bankrupt any nations yet and I doubt it would start.

I have to admit you are more skilled at this e-debating than most, including myself.

If you are concerned with asthma and pollution, why are you focusing on CO2 when it does not contribute to either? Carbon dioxide is fundamental to life and placing onerous restrictions on its emission will cost billions of dollars with little, if any, benefit to the environment.

You need to look at the costs associated with any project as well as the benefits. Thirty years ago a group of environmental activists successfully had DDT banned from use worldwide. That turned out great for the birds but a little less well for the millions of people who died from malaria and typhus because they were denied the means to eradicate the mosquitoes that carried the diseases.

All I am saying is good intentions are not enough, the real world consequences of "doing something" must be considered.