[A418t81]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Sure, i'd love to agree and/or disagree. I'd just like you to elaborate upon your somewhat bold statement so I know what I'm disagreeing/agreeing about.

-shiv

I will, but not right this second. My ICU patients have me zonked right now and I don't feel like coming up with a cohesive post at this point.

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by A418t81

There are very few true advantages of a piggyback system over a properly thought out flash.

Many ppl (including myself) feel the "portability" of a piggyback is a high priority and major advantage over a flahed ECU, especially when many of us get new cars every 2-3 years.

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by A418t81

I will, but not right this second. My ICU patients have me zonked right now and I don't feel like coming up with a cohesive post at this point.

SICU or PICU?

[Terry335]

The fundamental difference is going to be the difference between a fully integrated solution (flash) vs. a disparate system (piggyback). There is no doubt in the minds of any tuner that a reflash is a vastly superior tuning median, and I'm in the piggyback business right now.

The issue is getting flash software to the point that people can load/unload tunes on their own, perhaps adjusting the DME OS for logic changes, etc. It's going to take some time before this stuff is available, so in a way piggybacks are here as a stop-gap.

[sirploppy]

I would also be very curious to see what Jim Conforti will come up with in a 335i application. He pioneered the "Shark Injector" ECU updater that I had on my 98' M roadster. Great results and I could flash it back to stock whenever I needed.

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by sflgator

SICU or PICU?

SICU. Hemi-colectomy, coded, dopamine/dobutamine drip, probably ATN w/ the severe hypotension with 20 cc of urine and +5 liters now, chf also. What to do with fluids? Pt is swaned. LOL, thats just one of them.

BTW, piggybacks are hardly ever "portable" to another platform without a lot of software and hardware changes.

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by A418t81

SICU. Hemi-colectomy, coded, dopamine/dobutamine drip, probably ATN w/ the severe hypotension with 20 cc of urine and +5 liters now, chf also. What to do with fluids? Pt is swaned. LOL, thats just one of them.

BTW, piggybacks are hardly ever "portable" to another platform without a lot of software and hardware changes.

Nasty case...at least he/she is alive. Not as bad as an extreme endocarditis case with a bad ending though.

btw -- piggyback portability, meaning taking the PROcede from one N54 engine to another one in 2-3 years...or worst case scenario, selling it for 3/4 of its original cost!

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by sflgator

:

btw -- piggyback portability, meaning taking the PROcede from one N54 engine to another one in 2-3 years...or worst case scenario, selling it for 3/4 of its original cost!

Piggybacks have a very volatile used market...and if history repeats itself, especially after the age of reflashes arrive, you might end up with a paper weight, you might not.

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by sflgator

from one N54 engine to another one in 2-3 years...or worst case scenario, selling it for 3/4 of its original cost!

I think you're making a pretty big assumption there. If you look at other markets, once the reflashes are to the point where people can load/unload themselves, the piggybacks become worthless. The obvious comparison is with the Subaru market, but to give people a different perspective, lets look at the LS1 market.

Back in early 2000 there was no reflash software widely available for the LS1. You tuned by changing around the maf housing, injector size, and various piggyback type solutions such as the maf translator, MSD timing retard, etc. A maf+maf translator combo might go for $550.

Only a year later when LS1 Edit & HP Tuners came out, overnight all that junk was obsolete. I know because I had a stash of maf translators that I had to liquidate. Rather than $550 for a maf/maft combo you could maybe get $75.

Any unbiased tuner who has tuned with piggybacks and then tuned with reflash software will pick the reflash software every time. This basic evolution from piggyback to reflash happens over and over again. So my point was, the piggyback is a stop-gap. Nothing wrong with stop-gaps, but don't make it out to be more than it is.

[S4to335]

Not necessarily Terry...check out 034Motorsports. Javad can do some decent stuff with his piggybacks with Audis.

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by A418t81

Piggybacks have a very volatile used market...and if history repeats itself, especially after the age of reflashes arrive, you might end up with a paper weight, you might not.

With the PROcede and XEDE solidly in the BMW N54 market, I highly doubt it. I was one of Shiv's original beta testers for his old Vishnu XEDE back in 12/06; with the incredible recent developments, I can't foresee the PROcede and/or AA XEDE going out of favor for the 335i (or 535i or possibly the X6, X5, X3...or whatever else BMW uses the N54 engine in) in the next 2 years.

In addition, I would be willing to bet that Shiv will be working on adapting the PROcede to the upcoming '09 Nissan GT-R. He's already adapted it to the Porsche 997 tt now...what's next? What about for the upcoming '09 Audi S4 tt???? As long as auto mfgr's continue to go F/I, then Shiv and the others with their piggybacks have some fun work ahead of them.

Anyways, for me personally, I'm planning on getting another 335i in the first QTR, '09 and transferring my PROcede v2 (v3???? ) as of right now...unless I go with the E92 M3 (but I doubt it since my car is now as fast or faster than the M3 for so much less $$).

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by Terry335

I think you're making a pretty big assumption there. If you look at other markets, once the reflashes are to the point where people can load/unload themselves, the piggybacks become worthless. The obvious comparison is with the Subaru market, but to give people a different perspective, lets look at the LS1 market.

Back in early 2000 there was no reflash software widely available for the LS1. You tuned by changing around the maf housing, injector size, and various piggyback type solutions such as the maf translator, MSD timing retard, etc. A maf+maf translator combo might go for $550.

Only a year later when LS1 Edit & HP Tuners came out, overnight all that junk was obsolete. I know because I had a stash of maf translators that I had to liquidate. Rather than $550 for a maf/maft combo you could maybe get $75.

Any unbiased tuner who has tuned with piggybacks and then tuned with reflash software will pick the reflash software every time. This basic evolution from piggyback to reflash happens over and over again. So my point was, the piggyback is a stop-gap. Nothing wrong with stop-gaps, but don't make it out to be more than it is.

I understand, but given the auto sales/leasing marketplace of today, most ppl in this "sports car" market segment tend to either lease their cars for a short period of time (2-3 years) or buy them and trade them in for a new one in 3-4 years...so having an easy transportable and adaptable solution like a piggyback is highly desirable. If for some reason I don't get back into another 335i (or another BMW with the N54 engine) in the 1st QTR, '09, then I bet I could sell my PROcede v2 for at least $1,000. Now, maybe if you're talking about 3-4 years from now, then who knows???? That's too far in the future to predict what's going on in the marketplace.

For my particular situation, I lease my car for a short time (30 months) since I do so much mileage/year for business...I like driving my cars under warranty () and getting a new one with better technology and hopefully higher safety every 2-3 years. But that's just me.

[sirploppy]

Originally Posted by Terry335

I think you're making a pretty big assumption there. If you look at other markets, once the reflashes are to the point where people can load/unload themselves, the piggybacks become worthless. The obvious comparison is with the Subaru market, but to give people a different perspective, lets look at the LS1 market.

Back in early 2000 there was no reflash software widely available for the LS1. You tuned by changing around the maf housing, injector size, and various piggyback type solutions such as the maf translator, MSD timing retard, etc. A maf+maf translator combo might go for $550.

Only a year later when LS1 Edit & HP Tuners came out, overnight all that junk was obsolete. I know because I had a stash of maf translators that I had to liquidate. Rather than $550 for a maf/maft combo you could maybe get $75.

Any unbiased tuner who has tuned with piggybacks and then tuned with reflash software will pick the reflash software every time. This basic evolution from piggyback to reflash happens over and over again. So my point was, the piggyback is a stop-gap. Nothing wrong with stop-gaps, but don't make it out to be more than it is.

Are you planning on taking a crack at the MSD80 directly in the future?

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by sirploppy

Are you planning on taking a crack at the MSD80 directly in the future?

I just don't have the resources to do it on my own, but would be quick to buy packaged software that allowed me to sell my own flashes. Getting in to these new ECUs is a lot harder than it used to be. If I had a bin and a working loader, I could find the checksums and develop a tune.

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by sflgator

I understand, but given the auto sales/leasing marketplace of today, most ppl in this "sports car" market segment tend to either lease their cars for a short period of time (2-3 years) or buy them and trade them in for a new one in 3-4 years...so having an easy transportable and adaptable solution like a piggyback is highly desirable. If for some reason I don't get back into another 335i (or another BMW with the N54 engine) in the 1st QTR, '09, then I bet I could sell my PROcede v2 for at least $1,000. Now, maybe if you're talkign about 3-4 years from now, then who knows???? That's too far in the future to predict what's going on in the marketplace.

For my particular situation, I lease my car for a short time (30 months) since I do so much mileage/year for business...I like driving my cars under warranty (I know, that's debatable since it's modded ) and getting a new one with better technology and hopefully higher safety every 2-3 years. But that's just me.

Who knows what the future holds, I'm just saying I've seen examples of hardware being worth say $1000 one night and $100 the next. When the reflashes hit, the piggybacks become worthless. Of course I will let JB customers trade in their hardware for a reflash...

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by Terry335

Who knows what the future holds, I'm just saying I've seen examples of hardware being worth say $1000 one night and $100 the next. When the reflashes hit, the piggybacks become worthless.

Not to A LOT of ppl for the reasons I've described.

[sirploppy]

Originally Posted by Terry335

Getting in to these new ECUs is a lot harder than it used to be.

Yes, The Tricore TC1796 is going to be a real PITA to get into through JTAG without the 64 bit password from Siemens!

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by sirploppy

Yes, The Tricore TC1796 is going to be a real PITA to get into through JTAG without the 64 bit password from Siemens!

I think if you had a friendly dealer and did a port sniff you might be able to get it.

[astris]

Originally Posted by Terry335

Who knows what the future holds, I'm just saying I've seen examples of hardware being worth say $1000 one night and $100 the next. When the reflashes hit, the piggybacks become worthless. Of course I will let JB customers trade in their hardware for a reflash...

Well, at the same time a flash locked to a VIN has a resale value of $0 as soon as it's installed. Plus, you either have to go to a local dealer or send in your ecu to get the flash including everytime there is a BMW ecu update. That sometimes requires changes to be made to the flash as well.

Yes, there has been devices with a flash loaded on them, but I have not seen such a thing for the German market that I can recall (except for the Shark Injector, which most would agree was useless anyways).

Again my example of the current Audi market. All flashes (well, there is still some soldiered chips available out there, but no one buys them new), no flash devices (except for map changing), no ecu swapping and no resale value.

BTW, it took the Audi tuners a relatively short time to crack the Motronic ME9 and start putting flashes out. Why so long for this 335 ecu?

[Terry335]

Not sure on the Audi front, but a good reflash system allows you to configure, load, and unload maps with a laptop computer. Just like HP Tuners for the LSX market. You usually pay a small fee per VIN, say $100, and then can load/unload as much as you want on it. In the Subi market you can buy a cable for $80 and load/unload any car all day long, as I understand it.

[astris]

Originally Posted by Terry335

Not sure on the Audi front, but a good reflash system allows you to configure, load, and unload maps with a laptop computer. Just like HP Tuners for the LSX market. You usually pay a small fee per VIN, say $100, and then can load/unload as much as you want on it. In the Subi market you can buy a cable for $80 and load/unload any car all day long, as I understand it.

Doesn't exist for the Germans. Reflash dealer pays the flash company a bunch to sell the flash. Dealer does all the flashing. Not really any variety of maps either. Just the usual switching between stock, pump, and race. i.e. no real off the shelf tune for a car with intake, downpipes, and full exhaust. No user configuration unless you use Lemmiwinks seperately.

[HP Autosport]

Originally Posted by astris

BTW, it took the Audi tuners a relatively short time to crack the Motronic ME9 and start putting flashes out. Why so long for this 335 ecu?

The BMW made the encryption very hard to crack, much harder than the Audi.