[scalbert]

Originally Posted by A418t81

He's also very much from the old school thought process.

Well, Corky Bell has been at it for more than likely more years than you and I combined and then some.

[DrDomer]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Well, Corky Bell has been at it for more than likely more years than you and I combined and then some.

Book ordered... I'll read and then only 80% of the stuff you guys say will go over my head.

[hool97]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

There is no proactive safety feature of knock control. Just reactive. Which means a few pops get through before it induces a limp. This is why keeping the adaptive adjustment range in tact is so important in the long term.

shiv

I agree this is an important point. When tuning most tuners will tune AFR first to the desired. Then increase timing until knock occurs. At that point you back off several degrees and recheck AFR for a given boost level. You do not want knock. You are on the ragged edge if knock is occuring. I disagree with people that live with 2 degrees knock retard on boosted engines. It just doesn't make since.

The response of the ECM/ECU/computer is to always over estimate knock as well. Therefore, you loose power compared to a propperly tuned vehicle. No room for Cali crap gas or some filling station guy who put 87 in the SuperUnleaded tank etc.

[normtrum]

Originally Posted by DrDomer

Book ordered... I'll read and then only 80% of the stuff you guys say will go over my head.

ha ha....I'm with you. Me don't know stuff. Me like go fast!

I should probably order the book as well.

[mesier1111]

Originally Posted by catm3

+1



+1

You'll obviously need control of timing of fuel given the boost levels of something like the PROcede, but it seems like the richer AFR for the JB S2 is sufficient given the modest boost increase. Would you agree, Shiv?

Yeah, but I don't know about you, but with a high pressure fuel pump already under a lot of stress and prone to failure, do you want it having to push out even more gas?

[DrDomer]

Seems like the HPFP either goes or doesn't. Otherwise, there would be a higher proportion of procede/Xede/TT/JB users with HPFP failures.

[E90Russ]

What an amazing deal for the price! It's not that far off of what the Procede makes and it's A LOT less expensive. I'd be interested in learning if the timing issue has any effects on the JuiceBoxed cars but I suppose we'll have to hear from a neutral engine nerd.

If you're just going to the track occasionally though, this seems the way to go!

[Alias]

Originally Posted by A418t81

Up to 11.5 psi or so, the amount the S2 and TT run, the ECU can deal with to an extent at the stock AFR by pulling some timing, or one can richen the mixture a bit like the S2 does and keep everything happy. Anything over that and fueling really isn't a great solution to dealing with the increased timing, so yes, timing control would be needed. Running 14 psi down low is obviously the reason the procede makes the kind of tq that they do and that can only be accomplished with timing control.

Bear with me (im still taking everything in and learning)

IIRC Terry was @ 12psi withthe JB2 originally, but toned it down to 11.5 as its safer (think he was afraid of knock retard), but since his product is limited technically this is the safest level of boost he can get with adding a point to the a/r cause he's limited with controlling the timing?(The ecu can do it, but only by so much right?) So 2 things assuming im reading this right

1. If i understand correctly, he mentioned about working on a JB3 with a higher boost for the "racers" and with his current setup ie ability on limited timing he could potentially cause some serious damage? (if he went past 11.5 psi)

2. Procede is much more like a mini computer that has the ability to control more so on the timing and everything else so things are much more safer?

3. If #2 is correct then i think the desision is procede

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by DrDomer

Seems like the HPFP either goes or doesn't. Otherwise, there would be a higher proportion of procede/Xede/TT/JB users with HPFP failures.

I would agree. It is my understanding that the HPFP is belt driven and run upwards of 2000 PSI. With an increase of 3 PSI boost would create 0.15% increase on potential fuel pressure load (delta P across the injector tip). This would essentially be negligible and any of the current mods are not an impact on the HPFP failures.

[musc]

Originally Posted by mesier1111

Yeah, but I don't know about you, but with a high pressure fuel pump already under a lot of stress and prone to failure, do you want it having to push out even more gas?

It's going to fail one way or another. Numerous non-tuned cars have had the failure. If your tuning solution speeds up the process, that could be a good thing. Get the failure out the way and get your updated pump.

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Well, Corky Bell has been at it for more than likely more years than you and I combined and then some.

I'm sure, but that doesn't make him any more right (or wrong).

Alias: He chose 11.5 because that was what worked the best on 91 octane with the 1 point richer scheme. I'm sure one could get away with running more than that on 93 or race fuel, but timing control would be a much more optimal way of raising the boost past that general level on pump. Hmm, S3??

DrDomer: Congrats on the purchase, its a very interesting book, pictures alone A great primer...just don't make it the gospel.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by A418t81

I'm sure, but that doesn't make him any more right (or wrong).

Alias: He chose 11.5 because that was what worked the best on 91 octane with the 1 point richer scheme. I'm sure one could get away with running more than that on 93 or race fuel, but timing control would be a much more optimal way of raising the boost past that general level on pump. Hmm, S3??

Without debating it much longer, it seems both you and I (multiple vehicles, including piggy back and stock ECU) have tuned engines. But have we both designed multiple and complete turbos systems (not to mention, engines) for manufacturers and race teams. That is a drastic difference. Until we both write a book which is well sold and have the accreditations in the market, ours opinions have less weight.

However, yes it is getting older. But most of the mechanical principals still apply as they did 50 - 75 years ago. The only real difference between what was supplied in the book and what is available in the N54 are the impacts of direct injection. Besides that; intake, exhaust, IC, etc. design are still paramount. In addition, the concepts of pressure ratio versus boost are warranted. IC efficiency calculations as well as turbo efficiency are very much relevant.

The ideal A/F ratio has changed with the inclusion of direct injection and should certainly be noted.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by A418t81

DrDomer: Congrats on the purchase, its a very interesting book, pictures alone A great primer...just don't make it the gospel.

I would certainly agree to that.

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Without debating it much longer, it seems both you and I (multiple vehicles, including piggy back and stock ECU) have tuned engines. But have we both designed multiple and complete turbos systems (not to mention, engines) for manufacturers and race teams. That is a drastic difference. Until we both write a book which is well sold and have the accreditations in the market, ours opinions have less weight.

However, yes it is getting older. But most of the mechanical principals still apply as they did 50 - 75 years ago. The only real difference between what was supplied in the book and what is available in the N54 are the impacts of direct injection. Besides that; intake, exhaust, IC, etc. design are still paramount. In addition, the concepts of pressure ratio versus boost are warranted. IC efficiency calculations as well as turbo efficiency are very much relevant.

The ideal A/F ratio has changed with the inclusion of direct injection and should certainly be noted.

Yeah, I agree with you on that. I guess what I am thinking most about is that it seemed like all the hardware he talked about was stuff from the 80's which was a far cry from the turbo and IC tech in the 90s even. Like the whole " an intercooler may be worse than no intercooler." Today a $50 ebay special sized correctly does a great job, etc, etc.

I do remember that little VNT turbo he put on the miata with its own oil sump. Hilarious

[jcarlucci1]

His "race" or jbs3 version will control timing as well.

Originally Posted by Alias

Bear with me (im still taking everything in and learning)

IIRC Terry was @ 12psi withthe JB2 originally, but toned it down to 11.5 as its safer (think he was afraid of knock retard), but since his product is limited technically this is the safest level of boost he can get with adding a point to the a/r cause he's limited with controlling the timing?(The ecu can do it, but only by so much right?) So 2 things assuming im reading this right

1. If i understand correctly, he mentioned about working on a JB3 with a higher boost for the "racers" and with his current setup ie ability on limited timing he could potentially cause some serious damage? (if he went past 11.5 psi)

2. Procede is much more like a mini computer that has the ability to control more so on the timing and everything else so things are much more safer?

3. If #2 is correct then i think the desision is procede

[roy@gambitmotorsport]

Originally Posted by jcarlucci1

His "race" or jbs3 version will control timing as well.

Interested - how so?

Could enough static offsets handle the situation properly (I imagine they might) or is he going with a map and a CPU? If I totally misunderstand, tell me nicely. Not trying to raise the ire of anyone, just looking for information.

[sambonator]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

No, I don't believe so. I still don't know what this 'heat protection' is or why it is needed.

Shiv

Wasn't the "Limp Mode" experienced on stock 335i's by Motor Trend related to overheating issues and engine self-protection?

[jcarlucci1]

Originally Posted by roy@gambitmotorsport

Interested - how so?

Could enough static offsets handle the situation properly (I imagine they might) or is he going with a map and a CPU? If I totally misunderstand, tell me nicely. Not trying to raise the ire of anyone, just looking for information.

Not sure how it is going to be done, but he did say he found a way. It will still be the same type of product, no mapping/cpu

[thegeneral101]

If the JBs2 is at 11.5psi, and the JBs1 is at 10 wouldn't that mean the JBs1 is safer? It looks like it doesn't change anything but boost, but its at such a low level that it seems like the ECU could adapt and still have a safe margin?

[herbz]

All you guys need to do to get the truth is simple..... go look around on ANY OTHER TURBOCHARGED CAR forum.... for example: http://www.clubwrx.net , Evo forum, Dodge SRT-4 forums, etc.

If you really want the truth just read my post.

Tuning turbo's isn't just a BMW thing. The "Procede" is just a fancy name for a modification that's been done literally millions of times to other turbo'ed cars before. In the industry, it's called a "Piggyback ECU". The WRX, for example, has many options available for piggybacks, such as "Cobb", "Accessport", and others. Those are just the names.

In laymans terms, to understand what it does, you need to understand the fundementals of what goes on in a cylinder. It's really not hard. Google "4 stroke cycle". If you can't do that, well, sorry.

The Piggyback can be programmed to modify fuel (amount of fuel in the cylinder), air (amount of air in the cylinder), and timing (at what time the spark plugs go off to combust the air & fuel in the cylinder).

By increasing fuel and air, and properly adjusting the spark timing, one can easily make more power.

This is the safe method. The "other method" has been discussed as well on many other forums. It's called a "Boost Controller" (aka Turbo Tuner, JB in the BMW world), and it's basically the cheap dirty way to get power.

For low boost applications it won't hurt, but cheaply increasing boost significantly and not adjusting anything else is going to fuck your engine in the long term. Doesn't really matter for ppl with leases but anyone who owns should just plop down the $1k and get what is called a "professional tune" aka Procede or AA Xede. As of now those are the only two legitimate tuning sources. The Turbo Tuner and JB are junk, and people will eventually realize this after visiting some other forums and seeing what knowledgeable car people think of Manual Boost Controllers such as JB and TT.

thanks.

[herbz]

Originally Posted by Brisk

not a boost controller.

Even if either/or isn't a boost controller. The standard, proven method which has been done on turbo's for years it exactly what Shiv is doing now. The second I heard about the 335i I knew the BMW world was going to be introduced to the piggyback mod. Alot of people seemed surprised that you could get that much power for that little $, but those of us who have been around turbo's already saw it coming a mile away.

That being said, I'm not sure what JB does, or what it's claiming to do, but if it differs from what Shiv is doing it all, it's not correct. Why? Because the way Shiv does it, is the way it's been done on every other turbo'ed car ever manufactured. Shiv hasn't done anything revolutionary here. Technology like this has a track record of decades of being successful & safe. Technology like the others has a track record of failing on other cars.

It's up to whoever, if you really care about your car and want it to last as long as possible, I seriously reccomend getting a professional tune. but it's not up to me, so I don't really care. Just trying to spread some thruths.

[DrDomer]

Originally Posted by herbz

All you guys need to do to get the truth is simple..... go look around on ANY OTHER TURBOCHARGED CAR forum.... for example: http://www.clubwrx.net , Evo forum, Dodge SRT-4 forums, etc.

If you really want the truth just read my post.

Tuning turbo's isn't just a BMW thing. The "Procede" is just a fancy name for a modification that's been done literally millions of times to other turbo'ed cars before. In the industry, it's called a "Piggyback ECU". The WRX, for example, has many options available for piggybacks, such as "Cobb", "Accessport", and others. Those are just the names.

In laymans terms, to understand what it does, you need to understand the fundementals of what goes on in a cylinder. It's really not hard. Google "4 stroke cycle". If you can't do that, well, sorry.

The Piggyback can be programmed to modify fuel (amount of fuel in the cylinder), air (amount of air in the cylinder), and timing (at what time the spark plugs go off to combust the air & fuel in the cylinder).

By increasing fuel and air, and properly adjusting the spark timing, one can easily make more power.

This is the safe method. The "other method" has been discussed as well on many other forums. It's called a "Boost Controller" (aka Turbo Tuner, JB in the BMW world), and it's basically the cheap dirty way to get power.

For low boost applications it won't hurt, but cheaply increasing boost significantly and not adjusting anything else is going to fuck your engine in the long term. Doesn't really matter for ppl with leases but anyone who owns should just plop down the $1k and get what is called a "professional tune" aka Procede or AA Xede. As of now those are the only two legitimate tuning sources. The Turbo Tuner and JB are junk, and people will eventually realize this after visiting some other forums and seeing what knowledgeable car people think of Manual Boost Controllers such as JB and TT.

thanks.

Now that was very simple to explain for "morons" like myself. Knowledge is power. I plan on getting as much of it as I can. Thanks.