[805beemer]

This really is a pointless argument about spool. Your comparing a turbo that outflows the single turbo kits by at least 150hp. So the fact that it spools anywhere near the st kits is a feat in itself. Let's wait till Vargas has a twin kit that flows the same as the ST and then we can compare spool time. Right now all we should be talking about is the awesome numbers Vargas put out on 91, that no one, not even the almighty shiv has been able to replicate.

[OpenFlash]

It's ok to be a hater. But at least be a thinker/reader too

[Tony@vargasturbotech]

Yes we made the numbers we did, because we dyno'd in 5th. All we have to do us dyno in 4th and the power is gone. My understanding was everyone dyno'd is 5th if I knew it was 4th it would have been 4th. I love the smoke and mirrors. Shiv, I'll say it again since you have avoided thus far, put on a turbo that flows 850 and we can compare some spool numbers. Now rob is over here talking install times, on a prototype kit being installed for the first time. The first time I installed stock turbos it took me at least time and a half longer as it does now. Bottom line for the 10th time. First time on the dyno on 2 weeks on tuning 91 were 77 hp shy of your E85 and meth numbers after a year+ of tuning time, I would focus on diverting attention from that fact too. You guys can bicker about semantics all you want. I will continue doing what I'm doing.

[shaginwagon13]

Originally Posted by Beemw335

It should be pointed out that you've had a year to perfect your kit, they've only had theirs out for a week.
Only time will tell which one is the better "daily driver" kit.

+1

[Crazylegs]

This platform is ridiculous....

[shaginwagon13]

Originally Posted by Crazylegs

This platform is ridiculous....

lol this thread is ridiculous. It was started to start an argument.

[Dmacc]

Originally Posted by shaginwagon13

lol this thread is ridiculous. It was started to start an argument.

Have you even read this thread?

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by shaginwagon13

lol this thread is ridiculous. It was started to start an argument.

What do you expect....the argument got deleted from the original post. I think some vendors are worrying more about their rice bowls getting broken than about “advancing the platform” as they like to say.

Most reasonable non haters would say competition is very good for both advancing the platform & the end users wallet.

[Crazylegs]

Yes I have. Just still after years on this forum every thread is an argument never an actual discussion. An I find it funny, but it's these threads that push this platform forward so I'm all for it.

Just Keeping the punch bowl full

[shaginwagon13]

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory

Most reasonable non haters would say competition is very good for both advancing the platform & the end users wallet.

Agree with you 100%

[Rob@RBTurbo]

I was trying to cheer on the beer n BBQ. Get it ironed out face to face. The Internet forum environment apparently is not the place to talk tech. People would rather take sides and flex nuts, as it seems. I will say it again, tony brought up spool with a flawed argument. Shiv countered with a flawed argument. The friendly comparo was proposed, regarding spool. Do it. Use this thread to iron out details of that tech comparo and find the builds that match all up the best. End of discussion. Wait, I'm sure someone will get pissed and continue on the BS. Geeeezus.

Rob

[Presidio335xi]

Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech

First time on the dyno on 2 weeks on tuning 91 were 77 hp shy of your E85 and meth numbers after a year+ of tuning time

dynojet vs mustang.....and everyone knows the twins have a higher hp potential.....not sure what your point is?

[Wescuddles]

My dad can beat up your dad. My dick is bigger. I have more money. My turbo kit spools quicker?

Waaah waaah waaaaaaaah.

[AlterZgo]

Originally Posted by AltecBX

This is the meth run in green.

I think what's interesting about this meth run is the fact that it was not run on the same tune as the 91 octane only run. It used a revised map with 2 degrees more timing and other tweaks to help fix the dip in power at 4800 RPM.

What can be inferred is:

1. Meth does not improve spool characteristic of the turbos.
2. More timing and other tuning tweaks does not improve spool characteristics of the turbos.
3. Tuning CAN fix some issues such as the dip in power at 4800 RPM, but the initial spool up of the turbos remains virtually the same.

So, it seems like Shiv's turbo spool comparison (again, turbo spool comparison only, not max power potential) of a car running 91 octane only vs. one running 93 octane + meth is not that unreasonable. Shiv's initial statement of: "Since fuel/tune has little to no effect on turbo spool-up, that is all we are comparing so please ignore the results from 4250rpm and up" from his first post in this thread seems to be supported by Vargas Turbo's own dyno chart which compares 91 octane only to 91 octane+meth with revised tuning, timing advance, etc.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by AlterZgo

I think what's interesting about this meth run is the fact that it was not run on the same tune as the 91 octane only run. It used a revised map with 2 degrees more timing and other tweaks to help fix the dip in power at 4800 RPM.

What can be inferred is:

1. Meth does not improve spool characteristic of the turbos.
2. More timing and other tuning tweaks does not improve spool characteristics of the turbos.
3. Tuning CAN fix some issues such as the dip in power at 4800 RPM, but the initial spool up of the turbos remains virtually the same.

So, it seems like Shiv's turbo spool comparison (again, turbo spool comparison only, not max power potential) of a car running 91 octane only vs. one running 93 octane + meth is not that unreasonable. Shiv's initial statement of: "Since fuel/tune has little to no effect on turbo spool-up, that is all we are comparing so please ignore the results from 4250rpm and up" from his first post in this thread seems to be supported by Vargas Turbo's own dyno chart which compares 91 octane only to 91 octane+meth with revised tuning, timing advance, etc.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech

you might want to go back and read a little more, cause no you are not reading anything right. We Dyno'd in 5th as do most MTcars(shiv Dyno's his car in 5th). People want us to dyno in 4th, no problem we will, we do not care no are trying to do anything in secret. As far as comparing spool, we did not overlay any maps, that is all other people's doing. Bottom line in spool is this, we've been tuning for 2-3 weeks. First time on the dyno, with turbos that flow 850 hp. If you want do an apples to apples spool comparison, have vishu put a single that supports 850, easily done, and we will put one of our smaller options that flow about 700 and get the car fine tuned for E85 and meth. Until then a spool comparison is moot. What's not moot, is the power we are making, and where we are making it, how close it already spools the single with much more flow potential, on 91 octane only so far.

No Tony. N54s typically dyno in 4th gear. And that's still pretty tall as is (140+mph). Dyno testing in 5th will result in overspeed on most dynojets. We don't really care if you dyno in 4th or 5th. All we ask is that you understand the difference when trying to compare turbo spool between cars dyno'd in different gears. I know your expertise is in turbos, not tuning or dyno use. So please listen and learn and stop trying to continue an argument that should be over by now.

Shiv

[HeavyMetalRocker]

If you piss, okay! If I piss, great! If we both piss, no problem! But whatever you do... DON'T CROSS THE STREAMS!!!

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by Wescuddles

My dad can beat up your dad. My dick is bigger. I have more money. My turbo kit spools quicker?

Waaah waaah waaaaaaaah.

The turbo monopoly has been broken so you can expect to see quite a bit of waaaah waaaah for a while as new dyno numbers start to come out & the tracks get back in operation. Got my

[SCGT]

Originally Posted by AlterZgo

What can be inferred is:

1. Meth does not improve spool characteristic of the turbos.
2. More timing and other tuning tweaks does not improve spool characteristics of the turbos.
3. Tuning CAN fix some issues such as the dip in power at 4800 RPM, but the initial spool up of the turbos remains virtually the same.

It's a little early to infer anything. What they said was that a couple of degrees of timing was added, they were running out of fueling capability, the meth added, and due to both lowered IAT's as well as the added fuel, they saw the 600 magic number.

I presumed they posted this info out of excitement of cresting 600 more than to showcase what an unfinished tune and an incomplete dyno run would do for spool. That is not "spool related" tuning, it's one shot on the dyno with a couple of variables changed. Making such positive assertions based on one (preliminary) graph is incredibly premature.

That said, you may very well be right. I want to be clear; my point is not that you're wrong, my point is that we don't have enough data yet, with these turbos on this platform, to make that statement. While there are certainly tuning tricks to assist spool, on such large flowing turbos if that ends up making a palpable difference from where they are or not -well, that remains to be seen.

Until then, conjecture away and enjoy the show.

[Tony@vargasturbotech]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

No Tony. N54s typically dyno in 4th gear. And that's still pretty tall as is (140+mph). Dyno testing in 5th will result in overspeed on most dynojets. We don't really care if you dyno in 4th or 5th. All we ask is that you understand the difference when trying to compare turbo spool between cars dyno'd in different gears. I know your expertise is in turbos, not tuning or dyno use. So please listen and learn and stop trying to continue an argument that should be over by now.

Shiv

I get it 100%, just waiting for you to acknowledge that an apples to apples spool comparison is not even possible until you either put a bigger turbo on one of your ST cars, or we install a set of smaller twins to match your flow capacity, which we will. Then we can talk spool all day long if you would like.

[Wescuddles]

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory

The turbo monopoly has been broken so you can expect to see quite a bit of waaaah waaaah for a while as new dyno numbers start to come out & the tracks get back in operation. Got my

Agreed. It just feels like Vishnu/Vargas are being compared for all the wrong reasons. The only apples to apples comparison I feel is that they're both turbo kits on the n54, everything else is moot at this point.

I dig both products and love having options but find it annoying to come on here and see the owners carry themselves the way they do. Sometimes it's better to take the high road and like Tony said "let the numbers speak for themselves".

I am in the market for an upgrade within the year and would hate to have a biased opinion because one of the companies didn't carry their operation in a professional manner, and frankly I feel that the arguing and comparison threads are walking the line of professional/respectful and childish.

[pits200]

Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech

I get it 100%, just waiting for you to acknowledge that an apples to apples spool comparison is not even possible until you either put a bigger turbo on one of your ST cars, or we install a set of smaller twins to match your flow capacity, which we will. Then we can talk spool all day long if you would like.

How about a quick cross-reference of your turbos to Shiv's single in terms of max whp so we can get an idea of what to compare down the road. I literally know nothing about the turbo flows but this can get everyone on the same page knowing how to compare spool characteristics to similar matching hp turbos beween yours and shivs.

I.E

Shiv ---------------------------------------------------- VTT

62mm____________________________________ Twin GT28 ( I know this isn't true but just an example)