[enrita]

Disabling that does not fix it

[Joshboody]

Originally Posted by jazze90

I have seen this topic come up on a number of occasions. All you are doing with a stack is being careless about why the engine computer is actually doing what it is doing when retarding timing. To me a solution to this problem cannot be to fool the engine computer and tell it that it is running less than stock boost when it is running 2.5-3x more.

Coming from another platform that was the easiest way to fool the engine computer and have it respond with less timing retard than it actually would have. Guys were going so far to stick foam in between the engine block and the knock sensor to have their engine computers timing retard less post shift than they otherwise would. If you look at Subaru forums you will find plenty of articles on shift knock.

No one has a real solution here. I feel the issue here is to do with how the engine computer handles fueling and spark at higher than stock boost levels and changing that will be the true solution to this problem. In other words, spraying fuel through the shift and cutting it out. This is what the other platforms did to solve the issue. I certainly do not recommend fooling the engine computer by stacking to fix the issue. Knock does not necessarily instantly damage engine internals. In most cases it turns them into ticking time bombs. The real solution needs to come on the flash side. Where is the open source solution these days to pick this up and fix this for the community? What is happening on that front?

This thread is referring to torque management, not necessarily knock. Flashers are now trying to figure how to disable or reduce sensitivity... is this still better than a piggy "fooling" the DME. Flashes do not retain the DME's original safetys, authority, and even visibility... and going forward these will either be reduced further and/or understood, altered (slow progress here though).

BUT, bottom line is what method drives best, quickest and retains reasonable durability for the users end goal.

[jayzF30]

In my honest opinion I think that you are making a number of fairly loose assumptions about what can, could or will happen down the road with a platform such as this one. I do realize why you would be making such assumptions though. This platform has been run with piggyback tuning boxes for a long time due to complexity of controlling the OEM engine computer. It is always easiest to reach for the simpler yet considerably less capable solution and call it a day. That is the reason I mentioned shift knock and the Subaru (among many others) platform where this was also an issue.

Speaking to some very seasoned tuners inside and outside the N54 realm and discussing this issue with them they pretty much unanimously said the issue happens due to the OEM computers shift/fueling logic at higher boost levels and this was not news to them at all. It has been dealt with before and the quick and dirty fix was to spray fuel through the shifts and not have it cut out and come back on. Maybe a quick and dirty solution for us would be to spray meth through the shifts and run direct port methanol injection.

Piggybacks and stacking have some really neat features that include in dash gauges, methanol integration and failsafety but in this specific case with timing retard post shift (or timing corrections as they call it on this platform) the only state a piggy can alter is to alter knock feedback and affect its algorithms and handling.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by BuraQ

If it is torque related as mentioned then ATR should be able to disable this feature in the AEP section which a lot of people miss out on or perhaps dont know its even there

If it works or not I have no idea, someone would have to select the option save the map then reflash and let the logs speak for them selves

Torque intervention by ignition disables the TCUs ability to cut timing during the shift event, it does not stop the flatline post shift on 6AT. Been there, done that. You have a DCT anyway so I don't understand why you are participating in this discussion when you have no first hand knowledge of the issue.

[BQTuning]

Originally Posted by themyst

Torque intervention by ignition disables the TCUs ability to cut timing during the shift event, it does not stop the flatline post shift on 6AT. Been there, done that. You have a DCT anyway so I don't understand why you are participating in this discussion when you have no first hand knowledge of the issue.

That where your wrong, if you search back in days of 2009-2011 I had an 07 E92 before going to a 2011 DCT N54 . I am participating in this subject for purpose of learning, and to help "search stumblers" to avoid avenues that have already been explored that did not work.

So now myself and others know much more about this feature and how it works, thanks.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by jazze90

I have seen this topic come up on a number of occasions. All you are doing with a stack is being careless about why the engine computer is actually doing what it is doing when retarding timing. To me a solution to this problem cannot be to fool the engine computer and tell it that it is running less than stock boost when it is running 2.5-3x more.

Coming from another platform that was the easiest way to fool the engine computer and have it respond with less timing retard than it actually would have. Guys were going so far to stick foam in between the engine block and the knock sensor to have their engine computers timing retard less post shift than they otherwise would. If you look at Subaru forums you will find plenty of articles on shift knock.

No one has a real solution here. I feel the issue here is to do with how the engine computer handles fueling and spark at higher than stock boost levels and changing that will be the true solution to this problem. In other words, spraying fuel through the shift and cutting it out. This is what the other platforms did to solve the issue. I certainly do not recommend fooling the engine computer by stacking to fix the issue. Knock does not necessarily instantly damage engine internals. In most cases it turns them into ticking time bombs. The real solution needs to come on the flash side. Where is the open source solution these days to pick this up and fix this for the community? What is happening on that front?

Maybe in 2 more years there will be a flash only solution to this issue. Until then those ATs who want to go fast will be using BMS' solution which has been quite functional and reliable for almost two years now.

Mike

[jayzF30]

Fair enough but I bet stuffing a little bit of foam in between knock sensors and the block would do the same It is a solution after all. I do honestly wish someone tries it out given two years the beating N54 internals survive in that configuration without blowing up and how everyone seems to be willing to ignore appropriate knock sensor calibration in this neck of the woods.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by jazze90

Fair enough but I bet stuffing a little bit of foam in between knock sensors and the block would do the same It is a solution after all. I do honestly wish someone tries it out given two years the beating N54 internals survive in that configuration without blowing up and how everyone seems to be willing to ignore appropriate knock sensor calibration in this neck of the woods.

The tuners are able to distinguish between knock timing pull and torque management timing pull...

Mike

[themyst]

Originally Posted by BuraQ

That where your wrong, if you search back in days of 2009-2011 I had an 07 E92 before going to a 2011 DCT N54 . I am participating in this subject for purpose of learning, and to help "search stumblers" to avoid avenues that have already been explored that did not work.

So now myself and others know much more about this feature and how it works, thanks.

This is an IJE0S 6AT issue so it would not apply to your 07. Try again. Can't fix this without stacking currently, period.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by jazze90

Fair enough but I bet stuffing a little bit of foam in between knock sensors and the block would do the same It is a solution after all. I do honestly wish someone tries it out given two years the beating N54 internals survive in that configuration without blowing up and how everyone seems to be willing to ignore appropriate knock sensor calibration in this neck of the woods.

I been running this low load solution for 1.5 years. Does this mean my engine will blow up in 6 months?

[themyst]

Originally Posted by jazze90

In my honest opinion I think that you are making a number of fairly loose assumptions about what can, could or will happen down the road with a platform such as this one. I do realize why you would be making such assumptions though. This platform has been run with piggyback tuning boxes for a long time due to complexity of controlling the OEM engine computer. It is always easiest to reach for the simpler yet considerably less capable solution and call it a day. That is the reason I mentioned shift knock and the Subaru (among many others) platform where this was also an issue.

Speaking to some very seasoned tuners inside and outside the N54 realm and discussing this issue with them they pretty much unanimously said the issue happens due to the OEM computers shift/fueling logic at higher boost levels and this was not news to them at all. It has been dealt with before and the quick and dirty fix was to spray fuel through the shifts and not have it cut out and come back on. Maybe a quick and dirty solution for us would be to spray meth through the shifts and run direct port methanol injection.

Piggybacks and stacking have some really neat features that include in dash gauges, methanol integration and failsafety but in this specific case with timing retard post shift (or timing corrections as they call it on this platform) the only state a piggy can alter is to alter knock feedback and affect its algorithms and handling.

Fueling thru the shift has NOTHING to do with this. I could spray 900cc/min of 100% on a pump gas map and still flatline. Been there done that.

I've also went lean on an E85 map when my LPFP took a dump and I didn't flatline.

[jayzF30]

Fair enough however you sir are a sample of one out there. If you'd really like to prove something concrete here I would suggest recording an audio trace from your knock sensors and compare with and without stack traces. It is really easy. Use an audio cable and run it to your laptop and use a sound recorder. This would put the knock theory to rest. I would do it but having been there before I just do not feel like it. I am too old these days.

[Joshboody]

^^this is not knock related and not a fuel issue. ATs spray during a shift and MTs don't have any issue. What you are referencing to on other platforms doesn't apply here. There's a table or many that needs amending.

[Msport335]

Didn't mean to start an argument when I started this thread as I was just looking for some insight to my issue. I wish I had known about this issue before going with the ptf tune.....don't get me wrong i love what they have to offer and what they have done for me and many others but it looks as though my only option is to stack with jb4 and ditch the ptf tune or have the car shift at redline and loose all that power to the ground as if I were to shift at optimal shift point for max power.

Didn't really want to spend more on a piggyback as I was hoping my next mod would be fmic.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

^^this is not knock related and not a fuel issue. ATs spray during a shift and MTs don't have any issue. What you are referencing to on other platforms doesn't apply here. There's a table or many that needs amending.

Ah, someone who's been paying attention all these years.

[Bimmer305]

What's intriguing is why some cars get flatline on 4th gear while other flat line on 5th. Mine does it on 5th, so it doesn't bother me that much since it is almost never used on the street.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Bimmer305

What's intriguing is why some cars get flatline on 4th gear while other flat line on 5th. Mine does it on 5th, so it doesn't bother me that much since it is almost never used on the street.

5th gear flatline Cobb only can easily be fixed by running the Alpina flash.

[Bimmer305]

Originally Posted by themyst

5th gear flatline Cobb only can easily be fixed by running the Alpina flash.

Unless it is an older model that can't be flashed

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Bimmer305

Unless it is an older model that can't be flashed

Then you sir are SOL.

[mfish123]

I had a 6MT 335i and just picked up a 2009 335i AT xdrive with IJE0S. I'm on Cobb stage 1+. I've logged with and without the Alpina flash and Alpina might help a little with the 3rd to 4th shift timing but unfortunately whether on the stock TCU flash or Alpina flash I have really bad negative timing in 5th gear. In fact whether I up or down shift into 5th manually or by using the gas pedal, and / or am cruising in 5th timing always goes negative in this gear. With standard throttle mapping its pretty easy to get high boost in 5th gear. I don't know why for the life of me 5th gear is plagued when other gears aren't. This is extremely annoying when on the highway and I give a quick stab of the throttle and the car downshift from 6th to 5th and has reduced power. Is this indicative of the typical flatlining?

Also, I had success on my MT with upping the load target and reducing boost limit multiplier so the actual load never even got close to the requested load. Its working well on the AT too! The side effect to this method is that it tends to exaggerate some of the existing overboosts. It may also be more a hair more prone to oscillations when making relatively small changes to WGDC base. I'm working on squashing those overboost.
A shame I have to go through such great lengths to get the timing back and now have a boost curve that needs massaging.

I'm going to tweak the scaling and values in the boost limit multiplier to get a flat boost request from 3,500 to 5,000 RPMs. I have the load requested around 210 in the midrange and the boost limit multiplier around 2.2 in the mid range MAF Req airflows and have rescaled it to correlate with the airflows at the RPMs I'm focusing on. A lot of trial and error needed here.


Alpina and OTS stage 1+ 4.02

Atrocious negative 5th gear timing with no timing corrections: http://www.datazap.me/u/mfish123/atr...ng-corrections

3rd and 4th gear just fine: http://www.datazap.me/u/mfish123/3rd...gear-just-fine

Alpina and lowered boost limit multiplier - (timing is intentionally set 1 - 1.5 degrees lower at high loads, on the below, as a safety net, in the midrange, while testing)

5th gear just fine: http://www.datazap.me/u/mfish123/boo...gear-just-fine

3rd to 4th gear: http://www.datazap.me/u/mfish123/boo...3rd-4th-gear-1

[WedgePerformance]

Originally Posted by themyst

Then you sir are SOL.

Replace the MCM...

[mfish123]

Originally Posted by themyst

5th gear flatline Cobb only can easily be fixed by running the Alpina flash.

Unfortunately on my particular car Alpina flash alone did not fix the 5th gear, Cobb only, flat line. See my post and logs above.