[135Pats]

Don’t run/tune for meth solely/primarily as fuel…it’s a bandaid to mask a larger issue. If you can’t supply enough fuel you can’t supply enough fuel, IMO meth should be used exclusively to manage the charge temperature.

Only looked at the first log but the fuel side is MUCH better, Jdbretz did very good work. Trims settle nicely, as you noted no longer pegging them. So the DME is doing much less work to keep fuel in a happy spot. AFRs settle quickly and the lean spool isn’t as…well lean. Boost curve looks sharp. Timing is still messy with some drops, but again on 91 octane there isn’t much headroom. Find some octane OP

[Ilma]

Yes....fueling looks better now.

Is this on straight 91 octane? You have two timing drops in a single gear so you may be facing an octane limitation at this point.

Timing is not exactly great in that you have multiple instances of what looks like typical knock reaction (3-4 degrees of pull) and your overall timing curve is pretty low to start with.

[SINGH_]

Originally Posted by Ilma

Yes....fueling looks better now.

Is this on straight 91 octane? You have two timing drops in a single gear so you may be facing an octane limitation at this point.

Timing is not exactly great in that you have multiple instances of what looks like typical knock reaction (3-4 degrees of pull) and your overall timing curve is pretty low to start with.

Yes, just 91 octane (full tank poured the night before) from shell.

Do you know what could be causing all these issues? Why my vehicle but not other 335is' is what i cannot wrap my head around, or are these common problems? The guys are Vishnu aren't answering any of my emails, which is just annoying at this point. Even when I called them with a few brief questions about the unit after i had installed it, I didn't receive the greatest customer support/spoke in a condescending tone. I only live less than an hour from them and wouldn't even mind paying for support. Everywhere thread i read in regards to fuel trims seemed to praise them in regards to their support, maybe things have changed. I just don't get the lack of support...

Are DME flashes needed with Procede units sometimes? I tried to search on this subject but couldn't find much on it... or how much it would cost/why it is needed for some.

You guys are the only reason my vehicle is running within safe limits now.

[AlpineSwift]

Originally Posted by E92 N54

Yes, just 91 octane (full tank poured the night before) from shell.

Do you know what could be causing all these issues? Why my vehicle but not other 335is' is what i cannot wrap my head around, or are these common problems? The guys are Vishnu aren't answering any of my emails, which is just annoying at this point. Even when I called them with a few brief questions about the unit after i had installed it, I didn't receive the greatest customer support/spoke in a condescending tone. I only live less than an hour from them and wouldn't even mind paying for support. Everywhere thread i read in regards to fuel trims seemed to praise them in regards to their support, maybe things have changed. I just don't get the lack of support...

Are DME flashes needed with Procede units sometimes? I tried to search on this subject but couldn't find much on it... or how much it would cost/why it is needed for some.

You guys are the only reason my vehicle is running within safe limits now.

Have to remember, Vishnu guys are pretty much out of the shop until after new years. They aren't exactly a huge company like ESS or AA.

[jdbretz]

Glad I was able to help, but I can't take all the credit. @Ilma contributed. Can you open your Procede software, go to the Data Logging tab, choose Channel Setup, then remove throttle and add Inlet Air Temp. If you can make a few more logs, I would like to see what your IATs are doing to make sure they aren't the cause for the timing pulls. I set your timing curve pretty conservative due to your low octane. Before I try to smooth it out some more, I want to make sure there isn't some other factor causing it.

DME flashes aren't "needed" however they do have their benefits. On heavily modded cars, they are much more of a necessity than on more mild tunes. The timing drops are fairly common when only running 91 octane fuel and minimal mods. If you do decide to mod further, I would recommend downpipes first, then a meth kit. You will get the most bang for your buck. A meth kit though is not something I would try to budget build. IMO either the HFS-4 or the Procede PWM kit are the best on the market. Others certainly work fine and get the job done, but for piece of mind I prefer things that work a little better and are better built.

As far as Vishnu support, they are typically terrible via email. They almost NEVER respond (which is extremely annoying), but I am sure they get flooded with emails every day. They do however have excellent service over the phone. I would imagine they may be closed over the holidays, but if you get in touch with them during normal business hours they go above and beyond. If you leave a message, they will return your call. Sometimes its not the same day, but they will get back to you.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by E92 N54

Yes, just 91 octane (full tank poured the night before) from shell.

Do you know what could be causing all these issues? Why my vehicle but not other 335is' is what i cannot wrap my head around, or are these common problems? The guys are Vishnu aren't answering any of my emails, which is just annoying at this point. Even when I called them with a few brief questions about the unit after i had installed it, I didn't receive the greatest customer support/spoke in a condescending tone. I only live less than an hour from them and wouldn't even mind paying for support. Everywhere thread i read in regards to fuel trims seemed to praise them in regards to their support, maybe things have changed. I just don't get the lack of support...

Are DME flashes needed with Procede units sometimes? I tried to search on this subject but couldn't find much on it... or how much it would cost/why it is needed for some.

You guys are the only reason my vehicle is running within safe limits now.

You should keep working with JDBretz as some cars are more fickle than others and need more custom tuning.

Hell I have had my procede setup for four years now and I still fine tune it to this day.

In my experience with "knock" Before I got my meth kit...... I found that it was difficult to run boost above around 13-14 psi without incurring some knock - and I was using 94 pump gas at the time.

A little bit of knock occasionally is OK and considered normal, but I personally would not feel good about consistent multiple knock events per single gear. This is the case in all three of your latest datalogs.

I found getting my fuel trims and open loop settings maximized helped quite a bit.

Perhaps JD could try upping the cell values in the open loop tables a bit more.

But honestly.....I think you are running too much tune for 91 octane at this point as the logs show in the timing curves. Your boost peaks at 15.9 psi at 3500 rpm and you are running 7 degrees of timing advance at that point before knock sets in. Perhaps lowering the timing curve to hit 4-5 degrees of advance at this pont will help keep you below the knock threshold your car experiences.

Keep working with fueling, but you could also try backing boost down and increasing the ignition correction to keep the timing curve below the knock threshold.

Bad news is that this will result in less power and less fun .

As already mentioned.....get a "good" meth kit such as HSF4 or the vishnu PWM.

I use the vishnu and it will integrate with the tune more easily and also give you data as to flow rates and the procede has a built in table to dial in the meth injection duty cycle.

Unfortunately the laws of physics apply here. If you want to push for more power you will need more octane.

If E85 is available, that would be the first and easiest thing to try

As to DME flashes....yes they help with fueling. I use my procede unit with a backend flash and would not go back. The backend flash allowed me to increase a variable called "fuel scalar" which increases fuel flow right within the DME. It dropped my trims about 10% from that one change.

It is becoming very popular to stack a piggyback with a backed flash and let the piggy control boost and meth and also a bit of timing correction (if needed), while the DME controls fuel directly. The main benefit here is the increased fuel control a backend flash enables.

[135Pats]

Good luck with Vishnu customer support...I have nothing against their products at all and have run some of them in the past, but customer support after purchase is not their strong suit.

Agreed on meth options. Spray off IDC or don’t bother, it’s not something to half-ass. If you go cheap on downpipes barring an outright weld failure, if they fit they’ll work just fine. Go cheap on meth and you could wind up with a hydrolocked motor, melted motor, all sorts of fun stuff. The PROcede integrates very cleanly and safely with their PWM kit (duh).

Good work again on the tuning side @JDbretz and @ilma . Those first logs were a disaster on the fueling side.

[SINGH_]

Thanks for all the input guys! It's definitely helping me get a better grip on this platform, i'm coming from a LSx swap background (N/A 6.0L in a Chevelle).

My plan of action:
Get new datalogs to jdbretz showing IATs
and see what we can do to improve this setup

Then:
Add E85 into the mix, 30/70 or whatever mix you guys recommend to prevent knock. Hopefully it doesn't kill my fuel trims. I am willing to go over to Vishnu and get a DME flash if you guys recommend it.

In the near future:
VRSF Downpipes

Down the road:
PWM Meth Kit

Have I missed anything?

[135Pats]

Sounds smart to be. Troubleshooting and upping the octane is never a bad idea. The poor timing curve is likely due to something as simple as IAT comp tables being noisy due to the stock intercooler and/or octane.

[SINGH_]

Originally Posted by 135Pats

Sounds smart to be. Troubleshooting and upping the octane is never a bad idea. The poor timing curve is likely due to something as simple as IAT comp tables being noisy due to the stock intercooler and/or octane.

Would that be something that could be improved through tuning (without springing for a upgraded intercooler)? Bad IAT sensor? Hopefully a E85 blend will help. But first let's see how these IATs are looking on this fuel setup before we dive into all that.

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by E92 N54

Would that be something that could be improved through tuning (without springing for a upgraded intercooler)? Bad IAT sensor? Hopefully a E85 blend will help. But first let's see how these IATs are looking on this fuel setup before we dive into all that.

Yea no sense in getting too far down this path right now but from a high level

- Fundamentally, no you can’t tune “around” IAT comp tables. You can quiet them down if you want, but if you are genuinely having IAT timing pulls you don’t want to just ignore that.
- You could add meth, which has fantastic thermal properties. It will cool the charge stream very well.
- E85 burns very cool, and also has strong thermal absorption properties. It will pull out a lot of heat from the combustion chamber, again helping to fend off high IATs and inefficient burn.


So there are ways to get over the issue for sure. But I would rec a good intercooler if you plan on doing much else with this platform. The stock one is horrendous and it’s a very hot motor to begin with.

[SINGH_]

wow... look at these IATs rise!

with some good kits for sale in the classifieds, it looks like i will be purchasing a meth kit shorty. we get to do back to back runs some nights when we go to the track, i couldn't imagine would my IATs would rise to.

[Ilma]

I would speculate that the E85 is going to go a long way to helping resolve your issues......but it does run a bit richer A/F ratio, so it will put more strain on your fuel trims to get there.

This is where the backend flash comes in

A bit of conservative meth flow will cool those IAT's just fine.

My IAT's settle down to 10F above ambient during a pull.

Edit: I would spring for an intercooler before downpipes as this will also help reduce your IAT's and work in harmony with meth.

[SINGH_]

Run 1
http://datazap.me/u/simarjit/run-1-showing-iat

Run 4
http://datazap.me/u/simarjit/run-4-showing-iat

[SINGH_]

Originally Posted by Ilma

I would speculate that the E85 is going to go a long way to helping resolve your issues......but it does run a bit richer A/F ratio, so it will put more strain on your fuel trims to get there.

This is where the backend flash comes in

If i go meth, i wouldn't need a backend right?

looking at a few kits that are going for a good price used

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by E92 N54

If i go meth, i wouldn't need a backend right?

looking at a few kits that are going for a good price used

Please don't

A. Go cheap on meth
B. Use meth to cure the inability to supply fuel

Just don't. If you want to get a good meth kit by all means, of course. The IAT management is fantastic.

Edit: Get a flash to stack with your PROcede. You'll pick up some power via altered VANOS tables and some other stuff, and the fuel issues will be far better managed.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by E92 N54

If i go meth, i wouldn't need a backend right?

looking at a few kits that are going for a good price used

The answer depends upon how much boost you want to run.

At your current 15-16 peak probably don't need a backend flash to increase the fuel scalars.

But I run 18 psi and even with meth.....my trims got pretty high up there (although not maxed out). Higher boost means higher airflow which in turn needs more fuel. So if you want to start pushing boost upwards, you will find a backend flash the key to doing so.

As mentioned previously, you should not rely on meth as a fuel band-aid. Get your fueling into the proper zone before relying on meth and then you can use it as a supplement to cool IAT's and give a litte bit better octane.

In my case, I increased the fuel scalar setting in the flash just a bit from a stock setting of 1.0 up to 1.1.......and this dropped my fuel trims about 10% overall and got me into a comfort zone with a lot more stability.

[Ilma]

Oh and God asked me to pass on this message to you regarding meth kits:

DO NOT USE THE WINDSHIELD WASHER TANK AS YOUR METH TANK!

God thanks you for your cooperation

[SINGH_]

Originally Posted by 135Pats

Please don't

A. Go cheap on meth
B. Use meth to cure the inability to supply fuel

Just don't. If you want to get a good meth kit by all means, of course. The IAT management is fantastic.

Edit: Get a flash to stack with your PROcede. You'll pick up some power via altered VANOS tables and some other stuff, and the fuel issues will be far better managed.

I wasn't thinking on cheaping out on a meth setup after what you had told me. The kit I am looking at is a Vishnu meth setup that a e90post user no longer needs.

How much does a backend flash run from Vishnu? If you think it would work well, I would like to do this setup:
Backend Flash
Vishnu Meth Kit
and have a few different maps. One similar to the one i have (14psi) and one higher for track days.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by E92 N54

I wasn't thinking on cheaping out on a meth setup after what you had told me. The kit I am looking at is a Vishnu meth setup that a e90post user no longer needs.

How much does a backend flash run from Vishnu? If you think it would work well, I would like to do this setup:
Backend Flash
Vishnu Meth Kit
and have a few different maps. One similar to the one i have (14psi) and one higher for track days.

The Vishnu PWM kit has good hardware, but I think it was originally sold as a windsheild washer system.

I just bought a separate trunk mount tank from Howerton Engineering (who makes most of the hardware for the Vishnu kit) and it has been trouble free ever since.

The backend fuel flash is posted on Vishnu's own website and is free to download....but you will need some way to patch it into your DME's original bin file.

I used the Open Flash Tablet and TunerPro software....but the OFT will cost you around $400.

I know there are other means to flash your DME at a much cheaper cost (Bavarian Technic cable hint hint), but I have no direct experience using the other methods and cannot speak to them.

I found my car did not like the backend fuel flash so much and I had to learn how to use tunerpro to make adjustments that worked on my car.

In the end, I actually just manually modified a few tables (like fuel scalars - A/F ratio tables - and the main ignition timing table in my own original DME file and flashed it back and it seems to work very well in a stacked setup with the procede.

If you are unfamiliar with this stuff it can be a little intimidating.....there is quite a learning curve to it, but in the end your really gain a better understanding of what is going on with your engine.

[SINGH_]

Originally Posted by Ilma

Oh and God asked me to pass on this message to you regarding meth kits:

DO NOT USE THE WINDSHIELD WASHER TANK AS YOUR METH TANK!

God thanks you for your cooperation

God knows best! lol

It's funny the other night my brother told me he wanted to use his windshield washer tank for his meth kit... then i explained to him why not to

His response: Yeah, mine kinda leaks anyways as is.
I just looked at him like:

I never understood why anyone would put a flammable liquid/water mix just due to the ease of installation. I will be trunk mounting it.

[jdbretz]

From the new logs you posted, you seem to be more octane limited right now than IATs being a problem. IATs will certainly be much more of an issue once it warms up though seeing how much over ambient that are right now. Basically the cool weather is the only thing saving you right now. I emailed you another map yesterday with reduced boost and timing. I don't like seeing consistent timing drops and think we can get the log looking better. If you add in 2-3 gallons of E85 then fill the rest of the way up with 91, it should clean the timing drops out. I would rather configure Map 2 for an E85 mix though so you can run Map 1 as a 91 only map that is safe, and be able to switch when you add E85. I did not configure Map 2 yet though, so do not run it. It still has very aggressive timing tables in it.