JBS2 0-60 4.0, JBS2R 0-60 3.8, VBOX Recorded

Driver72 · 11-07-2007, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by De90man

Nobody think this...Nor did anyone think shiv's 400whp dyno announcement was just Procede

And, 0-60 times are more than a test of traction (don't insult your own intelligence)...most cars with "300hp" cannot do a 3.8 sec 0-60. Even on DRs and race gas.

Also, it's 'legal' and can be done without a drag strip....and this benchmark is an accepted world standard...headline worthy in fact, so with all due

, just say "good job" and bounce

Well, doing 0-60 runs are the street are NOT legal.

0-60 times in this day and age are pretty much meaningless, have said that for years.
It was a standard and accomplishment decades ago when most cars couldn't do more than 100 mph anyway and speed limits were only 55 mph even on the most remote roads.

Now, it's mostly about traction.
That's why you see some seriously powerful cars (500+ rwhp) with 0-60 times of 3.8-4.0 seconds.
It's not that they are no faster than a 300 rwhp car with AWD, it's that they CAN'T get to 60 mph any faster because they will just spin like crazy.

I have written and emailed car magazines in the past asking them to stop putting so much importance on 0-60 times and start putting them on 1/4 mile times AND instituting rolling run times from 20-100 and 60-120+ mph.
Having those 3 test times will give you a tremendously good idea of what a cars performance is all about.
0-60 is hugely weighted on traction and driver skill.
Also I think most Europeans and the "world standard" you are referring too are more interested in 0-200 kph times (which is 0-124 mph for us).

musc · 11-07-2007, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Driver72

Well, doing 0-60 runs are the street are NOT legal.

0-60 times in this day and age are pretty much meaningless, have said that for years.
It was a standard and accomplishment decades ago when most cars couldn't do more than 100 mph anyway and speed limits were only 55 mph even on the most remote roads.

Now, it's mostly about traction.
That's why you see some seriously powerful cars (500+ rwhp) with 0-60 times of 3.8-4.0 seconds.
It's not that they are no faster than a 300 rwhp car with AWD, it's that they CAN'T get to 60 mph any faster because they will just spin like crazy.

I have written and emailed car magazines in the past asking them to stop putting so much importance on 0-60 times and start putting them on 1/4 mile times AND instituting rolling run times from 20-100 and 60-120+ mph.
Having those 3 test times will give you a tremendously good idea of what a cars performance is all about.
0-60 is hugely weighted on traction and driver skill.
Also I think most Europeans and the "world standard" you are referring too are more interested in 0-200 kph times (which is 0-124 mph for us).

Most magazines do the 'street start' 5-60 mph. It's pretty interesting to see the differences between that and the 0-60. Some were 1-1.5 seconds slower on the street starts. I think the C63 AMG still had something like a 4.3s street start. Pretty impressive.

Driver72 · 11-07-2007, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brisk

DRIVER72-
i think ur are def correct with ur statements.
yesterday i met up with two forum memebers, NYC335i and Kevin88gt.

335xi-sedan auto nonsport stock
335i- sedan auto sport stock
my 335i- coupe auto sport SSTT

we did a 0-70mph run. i was about 1 1/2 - 2 cars ahead of the 335i sedan and about 2 cars on the 335xi.

it wasnt a big margin at all. i was actually surprised. it happened so quick, it was first gear and than second and it was already 60mph. the test did show the SSTT does shave off some time to 60-70mph, but only by a small margain. a true test would be on a roll or to 100+mph.

i did a test in the summer with a Auto sport coupe 335i stock, we did 0-110mph. i had at least a 4 car lead by the end. which was a good solid run.

0-60mph is good for some fun, not good for great comparison.

just my view on the last couple weeks of racing.

Yup.

think about it.
The difference between a car doing 0-60 in 4.0 seconds and one doing it in 4.3 seconds is SO LITTLE, it's a blink.

On top of that, the car that did 0-60 in 4.3 seconds could actually be AHEAD of the car that did it in 4.0 seconds. Yes, you all read, and I wrote correctly, the car with the slower 0-60 time could actually be AHEAD of the car with the faster 0-60 time.
It's an itty bitty and inconclusive test of acceleration these days.
Not very meaningful.

bonsai · 11-07-2007, 09:07 PM

everyone seems to like bashing Terry and his JB solutions. I don't even know why, I havent been around long enough or frequent enough to know or even give a crap.

Congrats to Terry on getting these times! I live close enough to Terry to actually have seen him in person and I think he's a great guy. He helped me install my JB and I'd only consider the Procede if it could prove better drag times.

Sure, dynos are a great tool. Sure they can be extremely helpful for tuners and in tuning. But I DO NOT CARE ABOUT RWHP, I CARE ABOUT REAL WORLD PERFORMANCE.

To that end, are there any procede time slips? particularly, the 1/4 time and the 0-100mph times? I mean, seriously. If my sub-400RWHP JB2R E90 can post faster times than a 400+RWHP Procede E90 with similar setups (of course you'd have to control for tires, DP, wheels, etc.), then I couldnt care less that you have 400RWHP.

I'm not partial to either the JB or Procede. But as far as price, the JB is a damn good deal. Which doesn't mean it's any less quality. More time and money spent on R&D just sounds like more time on the dyno and marketing to me (why not just spend the time and save the money with less overhead and street runs?). What exactly is Terry doing so differently from Shiv? What exactly is so different about the Proced and JB turbo tweaks (aside from price, hahah).?

e90AW335i · 11-07-2007, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bonsai

What exactly is Terry doing so differently from Shiv? What exactly is so different about the Proced and JB turbo tweaks (aside from price, hahah).?

Put your flame suit on.....there are many differences between the two. I don't support either of the two either as I like to see results rather than dynos, but by asking this question about the differences your starting a 15 pages thread for sure. They might as well close this one down.....

Beer Goggles · 11-07-2007, 09:35 PM

It's all accepted standards. And he posted both directions on the street so you can average the 2. 4.0 and 3.8 seconds. It is a measure of grip, but remember cars costing $200,000 can barely reach 0-60 in under 4.

Stop being such bitches and complaining. Who the hell cares if you would trust Terry with your kids, his product is simple and it works. Those who are angry seem to be those who compete with him, or bought competing products.

I don't trust dyno work by companies either but at some point you got to stop being internet wizards level 16 and admit things work.

Why do we care about 1/4 mile or topspeed. It's call bragging what your car can do.

Also most mags DO NOT do street start. SS eliminates the high RPM clutch drop required to get some of the times, like how you have to do with EVO/WRX to get close. It shows off bottom end torque and turbo lag.

DrDomer · 11-07-2007, 09:42 PM

Would Terry get 0-60 in 3.8s on stock runflats? Yes or NO?
.
.
.
The answer is no. Traction is everything when going 0-60. So is weight. Hence why an Ariel atom can whoop you 0-60 because traction and weight are better even though RWHP is less. So don't tell us about his "real world performance" when his numbers are influenced as much by his ultralight wheels and drag radials as they are by the RWHP that is meaningless to some people.

Scientific method requires eliminating variables to isolate the thing we're trying to measure or test. There are too many variables here to say the JB2 is better than the Procede or even the opposite. Dyno's allow you to see improvement in RWHP on the same car with a given mod. Seems a little more scientific.

If we took a 335i and stripped it bare and put on drag radials, intake, downpipes, and a new exhaust I bet it's 0-60 time would be pretty damn good. Interestingly, we wouldn't have even added a piggyback. Get my drift?

Beer Goggles · 11-07-2007, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrDomer

Would Terry get 0-60 in 3.8s on stock runflats? Yes or NO?
.
.
.
The answer is no. Traction is everything when going 0-60. So is weight. Hence why an Ariel atom can whoop you 0-60 because traction and weight are better even though RWHP is less. So don't tell us about his "real world performance" when his numbers are influenced as much by his ultralight wheels and drag radials as they are by the RWHP that is meaningless to some people.

Scientific method requires eliminating variables to isolate the thing we're trying to measure or test. There are too many variables here to say the JB2 is better than the Procede or even the opposite. Dyno's allow you to see improvement in RWHP on the same car with a given mod. Seems a little more scientific.

If we took a 335i and stripped it bare and put on drag radials, intake, downpipes, and a new exhaust I bet it's 0-60 time would be pretty damn good. Interestingly, we wouldn't have even added a piggyback. Get my drift?

I don't know why every thread where somebody posts what they got with a mod becomes a this versus that...seems to me at this point everybody else does that.

It's nothing more than a "look what I did, and you can too"

DrDomer · 11-07-2007, 09:58 PM

I guess my post wasn't at the OP. It was at people saying dyno's are meaningless and "real world experience" is all that matters. If the post wasn't to brag about the JBR2, but to say "Hey, look how fast I went with my car!" then fine. But the basis of the post is how great the JB2 is because of this run. I think the JB and JB2 are fine options, the 0-60 time is just more marketing hype. Kinda like the Vishnu video of him doing donuts at an airport. Not taking sides here.

Beer Goggles · 11-07-2007, 11:05 PM

EVERYTHING is marketing, that's the world. We put stats on things to judge against others and compare. Somebody with another product can put DRs on and try to beat it...that's how we have higher and higher power cars. One company tries to outdo another. What Terry's product has done is lower the expected price point of a tuning option. $350-$450 for similar HP and seemingly less faults with the car. Or more money and slightly better performance? Arguing the superior product really doesn't matter.

DBville · 11-07-2007, 11:24 PM

I absolutely love it - Terry posts something, anything, and all of these experts start crawling out of the woodwork. He might be (or have been) a real prick - so are 90% of the posts on here! "Terry only tests downhill!!" "Terry uses DRs!!" "Terry uses race gas"

So WHAT!!!!! He tells you what he does. He offers a product significantly below the other alternatives. Everybody knows there are a lot of Terry haters around! We saw it in the other 150 threads bashing him!! We get it - You don't like him. So SHUT UP and go away. We know all that already!!

You guys only whine, whine, whine. If you have something productive to add - Great! If you know that he tests downhill - Great!! If he says he ran the damn thing both ways - and you weren't there - keep your mouth shut!!

Oh, and Shiv - I would have hoped you would be above adding fuel to the fire with your snide comments.

sambonator · 11-07-2007, 11:30 PM

I'd like to see how the Procede V2 runs with Drag Radials. I wouldn't be surprised if Procede can run faster than JBS2R... but why hasn't anyone done this yet!? And are any Procede V2, Xede V7, Helix, Dinan, RDSport and/or SSTT cars going to the Fontana Private Track Event on Nov.30th to run with (against?) Terry? I'm really curious to see the differences. You can sign up at http://www.alternativemotoring.com/

I'll be there with my JBS2. I'm not there to try and "walk" proceded cars or anything... just want to learn to launch my car and see what my lighter wheels will do.

DrDomer · 11-07-2007, 11:36 PM

The main reason a lot of people post comments about the JB who don't own a JB is the same reason people post comments about the Procede who don't own a Procede, to balance the discussion. I'm not opposed to the JB. It does what it does. The regular JB is fine. The JB2 ok too. People who are new to the forums need to read a balanced discussion on ALL products. Procede included. FWIW, there's a new kid on the block that might be preferred to both.

sambonator · 11-07-2007, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DBville

... "Terry only tests downhill!!" "Terry uses DRs!!" "Terry uses race gas"
...

Hey I heard Shiv dyno'ed his 400+rwhp car downhill.

e90AW335i · 11-08-2007, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrDomer

The main reason a lot of people post comments about the JB who don't own a JB is the same reason people post comments about the Procede who don't own a Procede, to balance the discussion.

I thought it was because they are pissed off they paid over 1000 bucks for 350 dollar performance.....

Im just messin around, no one get their panties in a wad....

Vikingus · 11-08-2007, 10:37 AM

I remember when when procede hit 4.5 in 0-60 and this board went ape shit over it. Now that a car with JB2 hits sub 4 seconds all of a sudden 0-60 tests are irrelevant. hehe I love it.

Former_Boosted_IS · 11-08-2007, 10:49 AM

It goes the same with Vinshu, but I think the thing here is people would place more value if it was done by a customer. We have no clue what A/F Terry was running, what fuel he was running, whether there was a different tune, etc. He could easily do many mods to the car that we do not know about to get these times and it may not be real world at all. Most people on this board can careless about a lot of the sensational junk, but just want to know what to expect on their car.

boostin · 11-08-2007, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Perhaps it's the engineer in me speaking but a properly conducted dyno test isn't much different than a run on the street. It's become very fashionable to say that dynos aren't realistic.

But this usually comes from people who don't know how to use them or don't have access to them.

Shiv

i know some prominent tuners in the evo community that would completely disagree with the first comment i quoted, therefore contradicting the second comment i quoted. these are tuners who own shops equipped with dynos (not amateurs) that have 9 second evo's. they've tuned COUNTLESS evo's and subarus to a point that the 335i will likely never make it to. contact Al from Dynoflash; he is an advocate of road-tuning AND dyno-tuning. one form of tuning doesn't negate the other, but they should aid each other to provide the safest tune possible.

-Chris

boostin · 11-08-2007, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vikingus

I remember when when procede hit 4.5 in 0-60 and this board went ape shit over it. Now that a car with JB2 hits sub 4 seconds all of a sudden 0-60 tests are irrelevant. hehe I love it.

its almost painful to watch, isn't it?

-Chris

silvrevo · 11-08-2007, 12:37 PM

Once again......LINE THEM UP and run them!

One product is $1k more, throws cel, limp modes.

Terry's product is as fast as your V1.47, with no limp modes, cels, and ships in 2 DAYS.

Its been asked so many times to run your product against his.

Why hasnt this happened? God it might just shut you up!

Terry has thrown out the challenge for a long time,,, whats your response?

Hello? Get your dyno Queen off the rollers.

silvrevo · 11-08-2007, 12:43 PM

Yes Boostin,,,,, Al's Dynoflash was in the same price range as Terry's product.

Same stuff happened over there as here. Al's product performed, was cheaper, and had NO DELAYS. These two were banned from the Evo forums for the same kinda talk that went on here that got terry banned for good.

Its kinda weird to see this unfold again in the 335i Forum?

Maybe its Just the same person egging on other tuners. Yes?

Again line up a JBS2R and a V.2 335i......... Then zipp it. Zipp it good.

Nikolas · 11-08-2007, 01:56 PM

I personally do think 0-60 or 5-60 or 30-60 are important numbers. Those are the numbers everyone uses on a daily basis. Maybe I'm getting old, but when I drive home and turn onto the main street, I'm not going 0-120 waiving at my neighbors. Also the reality of how the car performs off the dyno is obviously important and Shiv knows this. Otherwise he wouldn't have taken me on that insane drive in my WRX around the streets of his shop with his laptop plugged in.

Like others have said. I think it is rediculous that even when real numbers are quoted all we see are the BS flags.

Real numbers are what matter. Dynos are for tuning and not comparing and do NOT always represent how the car will perform on the street.

11-07-2007, 09:07 PM	#48
bonsai OG 3er 85 Rep 295 Posts Drives: 2016 F80 M3/2018 F82 M4 Compet Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: San Francisco, CA. iTrader: (0)	are there procede time slips? everyone seems to like bashing Terry and his JB solutions. I don't even know why, I havent been around long enough or frequent enough to know or even give a crap. Congrats to Terry on getting these times! I live close enough to Terry to actually have seen him in person and I think he's a great guy. He helped me install my JB and I'd only consider the Procede if it could prove better drag times. Sure, dynos are a great tool. Sure they can be extremely helpful for tuners and in tuning. But I DO NOT CARE ABOUT RWHP, I CARE ABOUT REAL WORLD PERFORMANCE. To that end, are there any procede time slips? particularly, the 1/4 time and the 0-100mph times? I mean, seriously. If my sub-400RWHP JB2R E90 can post faster times than a 400+RWHP Procede E90 with similar setups (of course you'd have to control for tires, DP, wheels, etc.), then I couldnt care less that you have 400RWHP. I'm not partial to either the JB or Procede. But as far as price, the JB is a damn good deal. Which doesn't mean it's any less quality. More time and money spent on R&D just sounds like more time on the dyno and marketing to me (why not just spend the time and save the money with less overhead and street runs?). What exactly is Terry doing so differently from Shiv? What exactly is so different about the Proced and JB turbo tweaks (aside from price, hahah).?
	Appreciate 0

11-07-2007, 09:35 PM	#50
Beer Goggles First Lieutenant 6 Rep 310 Posts Drives: 2007 335i E92, 6MT, Sport Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Riverside, CA iTrader: (0)	It's all accepted standards. And he posted both directions on the street so you can average the 2. 4.0 and 3.8 seconds. It is a measure of grip, but remember cars costing $200,000 can barely reach 0-60 in under 4. Stop being such bitches and complaining. Who the hell cares if you would trust Terry with your kids, his product is simple and it works. Those who are angry seem to be those who compete with him, or bought competing products. I don't trust dyno work by companies either but at some point you got to stop being internet wizards level 16 and admit things work. Why do we care about 1/4 mile or topspeed. It's call bragging what your car can do. Also most mags DO NOT do street start. SS eliminates the high RPM clutch drop required to get some of the times, like how you have to do with EVO/WRX to get close. It shows off bottom end torque and turbo lag.
	Appreciate 0

11-07-2007, 09:42 PM	#51
DrDomer Major 43 Rep 1,349 Posts Drives: 2004 330ci ZHP, 1999 Miata Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Iowa iTrader: (0)	Would Terry get 0-60 in 3.8s on stock runflats? Yes or NO? . . . The answer is no. Traction is everything when going 0-60. So is weight. Hence why an Ariel atom can whoop you 0-60 because traction and weight are better even though RWHP is less. So don't tell us about his "real world performance" when his numbers are influenced as much by his ultralight wheels and drag radials as they are by the RWHP that is meaningless to some people. Scientific method requires eliminating variables to isolate the thing we're trying to measure or test. There are too many variables here to say the JB2 is better than the Procede or even the opposite. Dyno's allow you to see improvement in RWHP on the same car with a given mod. Seems a little more scientific. If we took a 335i and stripped it bare and put on drag radials, intake, downpipes, and a new exhaust I bet it's 0-60 time would be pretty damn good. Interestingly, we wouldn't have even added a piggyback. Get my drift? __________________ Any man who can drive safely while kissing a pretty girl is simply not giving the kiss the attention it deserves. ~Albert Einstein
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11-07-2007, 09:58 PM	#53
DrDomer Major 43 Rep 1,349 Posts Drives: 2004 330ci ZHP, 1999 Miata Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Iowa iTrader: (0)	I guess my post wasn't at the OP. It was at people saying dyno's are meaningless and "real world experience" is all that matters. If the post wasn't to brag about the JBR2, but to say "Hey, look how fast I went with my car!" then fine. But the basis of the post is how great the JB2 is because of this run. I think the JB and JB2 are fine options, the 0-60 time is just more marketing hype. Kinda like the Vishnu video of him doing donuts at an airport. Not taking sides here. __________________ Any man who can drive safely while kissing a pretty girl is simply not giving the kiss the attention it deserves. ~Albert Einstein
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11-07-2007, 11:05 PM	#54
Beer Goggles First Lieutenant 6 Rep 310 Posts Drives: 2007 335i E92, 6MT, Sport Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Riverside, CA iTrader: (0)	EVERYTHING is marketing, that's the world. We put stats on things to judge against others and compare. Somebody with another product can put DRs on and try to beat it...that's how we have higher and higher power cars. One company tries to outdo another. What Terry's product has done is lower the expected price point of a tuning option. $350-$450 for similar HP and seemingly less faults with the car. Or more money and slightly better performance? Arguing the superior product really doesn't matter.
	Appreciate 0

11-07-2007, 11:24 PM	#55
DBville Private 2 Rep 84 Posts Drives: Not yet Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Birmingham, AL iTrader: (0)	I absolutely love it - Terry posts something, anything, and all of these experts start crawling out of the woodwork. He might be (or have been) a real prick - so are 90% of the posts on here! "Terry only tests downhill!!" "Terry uses DRs!!" "Terry uses race gas" So WHAT!!!!! He tells you what he does. He offers a product significantly below the other alternatives. Everybody knows there are a lot of Terry haters around! We saw it in the other 150 threads bashing him!! We get it - You don't like him. So SHUT UP and go away. We know all that already!! You guys only whine, whine, whine. If you have something productive to add - Great! If you know that he tests downhill - Great!! If he says he ran the damn thing both ways - and you weren't there - keep your mouth shut!! Oh, and Shiv - I would have hoped you would be above adding fuel to the fire with your snide comments. __________________ ----------------------------- '08 E90 335i Sparkling Graphite PCD 11/28
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11-07-2007, 11:30 PM	#56
sambonator Samtaro! 128 Rep 2,609 Posts Drives: 2014 F32 N55 Alpinweiß Join Date: May 2007 Location: Newport Beach, CA, USA iTrader: (7)	I'd like to see how the Procede V2 runs with Drag Radials. I wouldn't be surprised if Procede can run faster than JBS2R... but why hasn't anyone done this yet!? And are any Procede V2, Xede V7, Helix, Dinan, RDSport and/or SSTT cars going to the Fontana Private Track Event on Nov.30th to run with (against?) Terry? I'm really curious to see the differences. You can sign up at http://www.alternativemotoring.com/ I'll be there with my JBS2. I'm not there to try and "walk" proceded cars or anything... just want to learn to launch my car and see what my lighter wheels will do. __________________
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11-07-2007, 11:36 PM	#57
DrDomer Major 43 Rep 1,349 Posts Drives: 2004 330ci ZHP, 1999 Miata Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Iowa iTrader: (0)	The main reason a lot of people post comments about the JB who don't own a JB is the same reason people post comments about the Procede who don't own a Procede, to balance the discussion. I'm not opposed to the JB. It does what it does. The regular JB is fine. The JB2 ok too. People who are new to the forums need to read a balanced discussion on ALL products. Procede included. FWIW, there's a new kid on the block that might be preferred to both. __________________ Any man who can drive safely while kissing a pretty girl is simply not giving the kiss the attention it deserves. ~Albert Einstein
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11-08-2007, 10:37 AM	#60
Vikingus Nothing to see here folks 8 Rep 367 Posts Drives: 335i Coupe Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Queens, NY iTrader: (0)	I remember when when procede hit 4.5 in 0-60 and this board went ape shit over it. Now that a car with JB2 hits sub 4 seconds all of a sudden 0-60 tests are irrelevant. hehe I love it. __________________
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11-08-2007, 10:49 AM	#61
Former_Boosted_IS Major General 315 Rep 5,175 Posts Drives: 4 Wheels Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Planet Earth! iTrader: (15)	It goes the same with Vinshu, but I think the thing here is people would place more value if it was done by a customer. We have no clue what A/F Terry was running, what fuel he was running, whether there was a different tune, etc. He could easily do many mods to the car that we do not know about to get these times and it may not be real world at all. Most people on this board can careless about a lot of the sensational junk, but just want to know what to expect on their car.
	Appreciate 0

11-08-2007, 12:37 PM	#64
silvrevo Captain 40 Rep 660 Posts Drives: M235v 6spd Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Location: Location iTrader: (1)	Once again......LINE THEM UP and run them! One product is $1k more, throws cel, limp modes. Terry's product is as fast as your V1.47, with no limp modes, cels, and ships in 2 DAYS. Its been asked so many times to run your product against his. Why hasnt this happened? God it might just shut you up! Terry has thrown out the challenge for a long time,,, whats your response? Hello? Get your dyno Queen off the rollers.
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11-08-2007, 12:43 PM	#65
silvrevo Captain 40 Rep 660 Posts Drives: M235v 6spd Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Location: Location iTrader: (1)	Yes Boostin,,,,, Al's Dynoflash was in the same price range as Terry's product. Same stuff happened over there as here. Al's product performed, was cheaper, and had NO DELAYS. These two were banned from the Evo forums for the same kinda talk that went on here that got terry banned for good. Its kinda weird to see this unfold again in the 335i Forum? Maybe its Just the same person egging on other tuners. Yes? Again line up a JBS2R and a V.2 335i......... Then zipp it. Zipp it good.
	Appreciate 0

11-08-2007, 01:56 PM	#66
Nikolas Colonel 313 Rep 2,576 Posts Drives: 996 TT Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sierra Mountains iTrader: (0)	I personally do think 0-60 or 5-60 or 30-60 are important numbers. Those are the numbers everyone uses on a daily basis. Maybe I'm getting old, but when I drive home and turn onto the main street, I'm not going 0-120 waiving at my neighbors. Also the reality of how the car performs off the dyno is obviously important and Shiv knows this. Otherwise he wouldn't have taken me on that insane drive in my WRX around the streets of his shop with his laptop plugged in. Like others have said. I think it is rediculous that even when real numbers are quoted all we see are the BS flags. Real numbers are what matter. Dynos are for tuning and not comparing and do NOT always represent how the car will perform on the street.
	Appreciate 0