[DrDomer]

Originally Posted by Terry335

Thanks!

It's probably easier to understand with an example:

Say at 3000rpm, 5psi, 91 octane, etc, the car is calling for 8 degrees of total timing, but you want to tune it for 5 degrees of total timing.

With a piggyback you can offset the cps sensor 3 degrees, but the adaptive timing system will learn out that change and add back in an extra 3 degrees. You wind up with the same total timing from a combustion point of view, but shifted the boundaries of the limp mode.

At some point if you offset the cps enough the ECU will run out of room to add timing back in and you *can* effect the actual timing, but then you take away the ECUs ability to adapt to higher octane gas or cooler temperatures.

So let's get even more basic so I can understand. For the JB1, you increase boost to say 11PSI. To be even more basic, you do this be controlling the wastegates? (you can explain this if you want - I know it's basic, but lots of us pretend we understand) Once, you are at 3000RPM, 11PSI boost, 91 octane, etc what does the ecu do?

[remydlc]

Forget about PROcede, JB*, XEDE, SSTT, Dinan, etc, there is many things lot of us dont know that they can help us with. Many heads thinks better than one, even though they may have different working solutions to ours problems, which in my opinion, is great.

Some people just are ignorant. Terry's cheap solution give people what they NEED, just as many Opensource software out there like LINUX, which is a FREE Operating System that works for me, in the other hand you have Windows, which you gotta pay big bucks for it and may* also suits my needs, but I just dont like it that much.

Many ppl hate them BOTH, but they have an each unique feature to them, and that is what JB* and others are about.

other users thinking of throw some fire @ me, just look at my signature, i'm not a JB user, but I'm just happy it is working for all its users.

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by kyleh4852

Kosei K1 17x8.5

+1

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by DrDomer

So let's get even more basic so I can understand. For the JB1, you increase boost to say 11PSI. To be even more basic, you do this be controlling the wastegates? (you can explain this if you want - I know it's basic, but lots of us pretend we understand) Once, you are at 3000RPM, 11PSI boost, 91 octane, etc what does the ecu do?

The JB1 is 9.75psi, or ~1.75psi over stock, about the most you want to go with the stock air/fuel ratios in my humble opinion. The JB1 does not alter the air/fuel ratios, so it simply attenuates the map signal ~15%, which causes the ECU to hold the wastegates closed a bit longer. The result is you wind up making ~15% more boost than the ECU thinks you are making.

On the fuel side, the closed loop system balances to the stock air/fuel ratios, so your injector pulsewidth goes up and extra fuel is added, but only to the point where you reach the factory air/fuel targets.

On the spark side the new higher load may or may not require the timing to change, and depending on the conditions the ECU changes the total advance if needed.

[DrDomer]

Originally Posted by Terry335

The JB1 is 9.75psi, or ~1.75psi over stock, about the most you want to go with the stock air/fuel ratios in my humble opinion. The JB1 does not alter the air/fuel ratios, so it simply attenuates the map signal ~15%, which causes the ECU to hold the wastegates closed a bit longer. The result is you wind up making ~15% more boost than the ECU thinks you are making.

On the fuel side, the closed loop system balances to the stock air/fuel ratios, so your injector pulsewidth goes up and extra fuel is added, but only to the point where you reach the factory air/fuel targets.

On the spark side the new higher load may or may not require the timing to change, and depending on the conditions the ECU changes the total advance if needed.

Gotcha. So if I have the wife drive it and she throws in 87octane (never would happen, but it might somewhere), and I drive aggressively at full boost we are well within the factory ECU's ability to adjust fuel and timing still without fear of detonation? You can tell by my line of questioning I'm the utmost uninformed when you discuss these things.

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by DrDomer

Gotcha. So if I have the wife drive it and she throws in 87octane (never would happen, but it might somewhere), and I drive aggressively at full boost we are well within the factory ECU's ability to adjust fuel and timing still without fear of detonation? You can tell by my line of questioning I'm the utmost uninformed when you discuss these things.

Yeah, it is very hard to get the car to detonate as the adaptive system is very fast. Worst case would be a limp code.

[horsedjump]

Welcome back Terry.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Terry335

Thanks!

It's probably easier to understand with an example:

Say at 3000rpm, 5psi, 91 octane, etc, the car is calling for 8 degrees of total timing, but you want to tune it for 5 degrees of total timing.

With a piggyback you can offset the cps sensor 3 degrees, but the adaptive timing system will learn out that change and add back in an extra 3 degrees. You wind up with the same total timing from a combustion point of view, but shifted the boundaries of the limp mode.

At some point if you offset the cps enough the ECU will run out of room to add timing back in and you *can* effect the actual timing, but then you take away the ECUs ability to adapt to higher octane gas or cooler temperatures.

Quick selective question, which is better, more boost or more timing?

BTW, good to see you back here.

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Quick selective question, which is better, more boost or more timing?

BTW, good to see you back here.

I think 9/10 dentists prefer more boost...

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Terry335

I think 9/10 dentists prefer more boost...

It is nice to have dialogue again.

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by scalbert

It is nice to have dialogue again.

Hehe fun to be back on here with you guys.

[Noize]

Originally Posted by Terry335

Not sure... maybe ran lean under big boost?

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by Noize

I've taken more than one exhaust valve out that way back in the day... If you have a better theory drop the guy a PM, he could use some help.

[Noize]

I just don't think an exhaust valve would cause misfires like he is having.

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by Noize

I just don't think an exhaust valve would cause misfires like he is having.

Unrelated to this thread, but it sounded like fuel lighting off in the exhaust to me.

[Rugs]

Welcome Back & Great info Terry...Still Loving my JBS2!
It turned my otherwise Stock e93 from a Heavy Cruiser...to a Cruise Missile!!!

[Vikingus]

Originally Posted by Terry335

As long as its show and tell time I snapped a few fun pics last week. I've been doing the tuning for HRC in Moorpark for the past few years. They build custom hotrods, chops, door slammers, etc.

Last week we did the LS1 Imp (~415rwhp), these low res pictures hardly do the car justice. We went with a PI2800 stall + 3.89s which gets it going, but the damn thing must weigh 6000#.

The custom is an LT1 w/ DFI & direct port N2O (scary fast), and the Caddy is just a factory motor with heads, cam, intake, and a carb tune.

I'm still trying to talk the owner in to letting me borrow his S63...

I'm gonna have to start posting on weekends, usually fun stuff happens, like a return of Terry that I missed.

Welcome back on e90post

...and since I quoted this particular post, you gotta post more pics of those cars, I love them, if not here than PM some pics I'm jealous.

[HyperM3]

Originally Posted by Terry335

Say at 3000rpm, 5psi, 91 octane, etc, the car is calling for 8 degrees of total timing, but you want to tune it for 5 degrees of total timing.

With a piggyback you can offset the cps sensor 3 degrees, but the adaptive timing system will learn out that change and add back in an extra 3 degrees. You wind up with the same total timing from a combustion point of view, but shifted the boundaries of the limp mode.

At some point if you offset the cps enough the ECU will run out of room to add timing back in and you *can* effect the actual timing, but then you take away the ECUs ability to adapt to higher octane gas or cooler temperatures.

When this happens(bold part), that obviously inhibits the ability for the piggyback(any of them) to produce the same amount of power it originally had when first installed. How does one get their timing back to OEM parameters and does this happen often? I believe this is whats been happening to myself and others with the PROcede who have been feeling the car slow down. Once I unhooked my battery for 90 mins the boost came back. Is that the only fix or was that something else?

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by HyperM3

When this happens(bold part), that obviously inhibits the ability for the piggyback(any of them) to produce the same amount of power it originally had when first installed. How does one get their timing back to OEM parameters and does this happen often? I believe this is whats been happening to myself and others with the PROcede who have been feeling the car slow down. Once I unhooked my battery for 90 mins the boost came back. Is that the only fix or was that something else?

I don't believe the timing offset has to do with what your experiencing, but it might be a good idea to start a new post for that so others can chime in. If I had to guess I'd say you have a boost control issue. E.G. not making enough boost under some circumstances. Easy to verify with a boost gauge.

[HyperM3]

Originally Posted by Terry335

I don't believe the timing offset has to do with what your experiencing, but it might be a good idea to start a new post for that so others can chime in. If I had to guess I'd say you have a boost control issue. E.G. not making enough boost under some circumstances. Easy to verify with a boost gauge.

Thats how I knew that something was wrong. I was down to a peak of 11.2lbs instead of my normal mid 13's. After the battery reset, all was well again.

I did start another thread on the battery thing.

However, whats your opinion on the adaptability of the engine to the drivers characteristics? Is it possible for the car to create less power because thats what its used to? I baby my car to a decent degree and dont punch it off every light. Kind of how a marathon runners boddy gets used to putting power down over a long period of time and if they try to sprint, they cant do it because they arent tuned for it? Make sense?

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by HyperM3

Thats how I knew that something was wrong. I was down to a peak of 11.2lbs instead of my normal mid 13's. After the battery reset, all was well again.

I did start another thread on the battery thing.

However, whats your opinion on the adaptability of the engine to the drivers characteristics? Is it possible for the car to create less power because thats what its used to? I baby my car to a decent degree and dont punch it off every light. Kind of how a marathon runners boddy gets used to putting power down over a long period of time and if they try to sprint, they cant do it because they arent tuned for it? Make sense?

Peak of 11.2 sounds around 2-3psi lower than you should be, I assume you're looking at that in the midrange. Depending on how the tune is setup the ECU can try to fight the higher solenoid duty cycles, perhaps that is what you're experiencing.

The car will adapt and store your common parameters, injector pulse width, solenoid duty cycle, timing curve, etc. If you drive it really slow all the time it might take a run or two for it to get back up to speed, but it should all happen pretty quickly.

[HyperM3]

Originally Posted by Terry335

Peak of 11.2 sounds around 2-3psi lower than you should be, I assume you're looking at that in the midrange. Depending on how the tune is setup the ECU can try to fight the higher solenoid duty cycles, perhaps that is what you're experiencing.

The car will adapt and store your common parameters, injector pulse width, solenoid duty cycle, timing curve, etc. If you drive it really slow all the time it might take a run or two for it to get back up to speed, but it should all happen pretty quickly.

Thanks for your input!