Mike/Terry, can you please join this discussion?

Litos · 02-21-2011, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

You can also use flash software to set the maximum advance point very low if you'd like to do that also. But realize then you are just circumventing the learning ability of the DME to adapt timing up during conditions where it would be safe to do so. Whatever floats your boat.

Mike

and due to "circumventing the learning ability of the DME to adapt timing" is the reason why you chose not to have it on the JB4?

just wanting to know.......

p.s.
i got my car back tonight - gonna have it JB4'd by Wednesday evening

ExpensiveTaste · 02-21-2011, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPSlick

Autotuning is a broard terminology.

Be more specific? For instance PROcedes autotuning does not simply use the knock sensor to reduce timing everytime it may in fact knock. There is plenty more to the equation.

For specifics, your better off asking Shiv. But I disagree with that statement at the end of the day.

How else would it know that the timing needs to be retarded?

zeenon53 · 02-21-2011, 08:32 PM

On my last platform I used a J&S safegaurd for knock. I think Dinan has used something similar in the past as well.

Litos · 02-21-2011, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Litos

last question:

we all see the "dip", right?

regardless if it's knock or timing retard, will a fmic fix THE DIP !?!?

good question

Jeff@TopGearSolutions · 02-21-2011, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExpensiveTaste

How else would it know that the timing needs to be retarded?

Ask Shiv. As I stated the knock sensor ISNT the ONLY part of the equation to autotuning. Is it part of it, of course.

You guys need to start on reading comprehension. I hate repeating myself.

DaFish · 02-21-2011, 08:37 PM

Real life again please.....

If this is knock.... if the JB tune doesn't mod timing...

What does this translate too? I still don't have a good answer to this. Put your scientist minds to this please.

1) Less power? I would imagine if it knocks and backs off timing you loose power - but the power results are similar to Procede for RWHP and RWTQ Why? I would expect if it keeps knocking and backing off, would you hear this (as I used to hear it in my Dad's 69 Impala?), or would it bog ? I would think most certainly a drop in power would result... The reported and dyno'd power numbers are high and just as good if not better than other tunes. Please explain why.

2) Mileage... is there any correlation? do the tunes get similar mileage?

3) failures - again.... is there any correlation? do the tunes have a similar number of issues/failures? Seems to me they do, they all have failures/limp modes and bad reports (and all have lots of good ones too).

4) smoothness in delivery... is one tune less smooth than the other?

Again, I want to make my decision based on scientific fact... right now, after 30 F'n pages... I am no further ahead and I have a headache from all the intolerance.

The only basis I have now is features, performance numbers and support - which all seem to be pretty similar.

You keep saying that ignition timing is absolutely necessary and I get that - it makes sense, but not how the JB4 gets it's power if it is f'n up the engine as I believe you are implying by not having timing control and relying on the knock sensor to do it's timing.

Mike@N54Tuning.com · 02-21-2011, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Litos

and due to "circumventing the learning ability of the DME to adapt timing" is the reason why you chose not to have it on the JB4?

just wanting to know.......

p.s.
i got my car back tonight - gonna have it JB4'd by Wednesday evening

It's intended to be an adaptive system floating advance up and down as conditions allow. Normally the DME is only increasing and decreasing timing in small adjustments but these 3 degree dips indicate the DME heard more early knock frequencies than it was expecting so it reacted more aggressively than normal. As you get close to the point that your octane can not reasonably support your boost levels you see more of these dips and know the car is getting to the aggressive side of things. Both major piggybacks use these dips as indicators for autotuning and you'll see them in both of their logs, and in stock logs as evidenced here. This whole debate has been going on for years but it's always been a hypothetical debate because the blown head gaskets, melted plugs, and all these other bad things Clap135, Shiv, and others predicted would happen at 13-15psi never came true.

Mike

roninsoldier83 · 02-21-2011, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPSlick

Unfortunately the = length aftermarket headers ruin the subie sound we have come to love. (a little bit anyway).

+1

The price you have to pay

Actually, I never swapped over to equal length headers for that exact reason (on either my '04 WRX or my '06 STI)... considered it a couple times, but couldn't convince myself. Ported the stock manifolds myself (gasket matched port/didn't do too bad of a job either haha), but never could talk myself into parting with the stock cast manifolds, with sound being the main reason, and unequal length aftermarket manifolds seeming like a waste of cash.

So, on my STI, as an extra "detonation deterrent" I just converted over to E85 haha. Ran E85 for almost 2 years straight (talk about a PITA, especially in the winter!! E85 cold starts FTL), self-tuned, and logged on a fairly regular basis... almost impossible to get that stuff to knock!! Converting over, on the same boost, with only very minor increases in timing & the same lambda equivalent AFR's, the car picked up 25whp & 40whp... upping the boost past 21psi on the stock VF39 did nothing for peak power (slight increases in torque), but it seemed as though no matter how much boost or timing I threw at that bugger, that stuff just refused to knock. However, I capped timing when torque ceased to increase... I don't miss driving out of my way to find E85 stations, but I do miss the consistency and silky smooth curves E85 brought to the table.

[/rant]

Jeff@TopGearSolutions · 02-21-2011, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clap135

I had maybe 10 pms today asking me what tune people should buy, so you would have had 14....damn shame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roninsoldier83

+1

The price you have to pay

Actually, I never swapped over to equal length headers for that exact reason (on either my '04 WRX or my '06 STI)... considered it a couple times, but couldn't convince myself. Ported the stock manifolds myself (gasket matched port/didn't do too bad of a job either haha), but never could talk myself into parting with the stock cast manifolds, with sound being the main reason, and unequal length aftermarket manifolds seeming like a waste of cash.

So, on my STI, as an extra "detonation deterrent" I just converted over to E85 haha. Ran E85 for almost 2 years straight (talk about a PITA, especially in the winter!! E85 cold starts FTL), self-tuned, and logged on a fairly regular basis... almost impossible to get that stuff to knock!! Converting over, on the same boost, with only very minor increases in timing & the same lambda equivalent AFR's, the car picked up 25whp & 40whp... upping the boost past 21psi on the stock VF39 did nothing for peak power (slight increases in torque), but it seemed as though no matter how much boost or timing I threw at that bugger, that stuff just refused to knock. However, I capped timing when torque ceased to increase... I don't miss driving out of my way to find E85 stations, but I do miss the consistency and silky smooth curves E85 brought to the table.

[/rant]

E85 is a different beast. Sounds like you had everything under control though. And stopping ignition when power stops increasing is right on the money. Not waiting for knock!

ExpensiveTaste · 02-21-2011, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPSlick

Ask Shiv. As I stated the knock sensor ISNT the ONLY part of the equation to autotuning. Is it part of it, of course.

You guys need to start on reading comprehension. I hate repeating myself.

Lol way to believe the marketing blindly...

Jeff@TopGearSolutions · 02-21-2011, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExpensiveTaste

Lol way to believe the marketing blindly...

Cool story bro....

Litos · 02-21-2011, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roninsoldier83

+1

The price you have to pay

Actually, I never swapped over to equal length headers for that exact reason (on either my '04 WRX or my '06 STI)... considered it a couple times, but couldn't convince myself. Ported the stock manifolds myself (gasket matched port/didn't do too bad of a job either haha), but never could talk myself into parting with the stock cast manifolds, with sound being the main reason, and unequal length aftermarket manifolds seeming like a waste of cash.

So, on my STI, as an extra "detonation deterrent" I just converted over to E85 haha. Ran E85 for almost 2 years straight (talk about a PITA, especially in the winter!! E85 cold starts FTL), self-tuned, and logged on a fairly regular basis... almost impossible to get that stuff to knock!! Converting over, on the same boost, with only very minor increases in timing & the same lambda equivalent AFR's, the car picked up 25whp & 40whp... upping the boost past 21psi on the stock VF39 did nothing for peak power (slight increases in torque), but it seemed as though no matter how much boost or timing I threw at that bugger, that stuff just refused to knock. However, I capped timing when torque ceased to increase... I don't miss driving out of my way to find E85 stations, but I do miss the consistency and silky smooth curves E85 brought to the table.

[/rant]

my little brother drives my STi in Dallas - he was down this weekend for my birthday and had the stock manifold/upp installed in the car when the tubular exhaust manifold's welds broke.

car sounded AMAZING !!!!! i drove it with = length header for almost 2 years and HATED how it robbed the subie sound.

i love how the car sounds like it's under water

Litos · 02-21-2011, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

these 3 degree dips indicate the DME heard more early knock frequencies than it was expecting so it reacted more aggressively than normal. As you get close to the point that your octane can not reasonably support your boost levels you see more of these dips and know the car is getting to the aggressive side of things. Both major piggybacks use these dips as indicators for autotuning and you'll see them in both of their logs, and in stock logs as evidenced here.
Mike

will a fmic keep my car from getting this "dip".

i don't give a fuck what that dip is, i just want to know if you think i can correct it via fmic

Forcefed3 · 02-21-2011, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Litos

will a fmic keep my car from getting this "dip".

i don't give a fuck what that dip is, i just want to know if you think i can correct it via fmic

No.

Fernflex · 02-21-2011, 09:22 PM

A fmic will help to get lower Iat's and help a bit, the first log that Mike posted of a JB4 with a clean timing on 90 degrees weather has the Helix fmic.

Jeff@TopGearSolutions · 02-21-2011, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Litos

will a fmic keep my car from getting this "dip".

i don't give a fuck what that dip is, i just want to know if you think i can correct it via fmic

It can help. Not bullet proof though.

Litos · 02-21-2011, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roninsoldier83

I don't miss driving out of my way to find E85 stations, but I do miss the consistency and silky smooth curves E85 brought to the table.

[/rant]

Proper Motion LLC · 02-21-2011, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clap135

Sorry the screen is not big enough for me to scroll, and I am too lazy to keep earsing info I dont want you to see

Attachment 488906

Cntrl +-

Clap135 · 02-21-2011, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rysandro

Cntrl +-

Then you won't be able to read it. Just admit the fact that you are wrong again, and buy maybe a 2nd juicebox? 2 times the control is better than 1.

ExpensiveTaste · 02-21-2011, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clap135

Then you won't be able to read it. Just admit the fact that you are wrong again, and buy maybe a 2nd juicebox? 2 times the control is better than 1.

I still haven't seen anything stated (based on facts and not assumed symptoms) that says any other tune is any better than the JB4 in all conditions other than a standalone custom tuned in every possible weather/elevation/etc...

Clap135 · 02-21-2011, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExpensiveTaste

I still haven't seen anything stated (based on facts and not assumed symptoms) that says any other tune is any better than the JB4 in all conditions other than a standalone custom tuned in every possible weather/elevation/etc...

Maybe reread the thread then?

Shellacked135i · 02-21-2011, 09:48 PM

This thread started as how the stock ECU controls ignition. It never was about which tune was better.

The fanbois simply came in on defensive mode, and thus the tunes came into play.

If you look at the very first 10 pages or less, CLAP specifically said its not about what tune you run.

To simply look how how it controls on the Stock DME.

02-21-2011, 08:32 PM	#663
zeenon53 Major 45 Rep 1,155 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: obx iTrader: (3)	On my last platform I used a J&S safegaurd for knock. I think Dinan has used something similar in the past as well.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

02-21-2011, 08:37 PM	#666
DaFish Major 160 Rep 1,289 Posts Drives: 2014 435iX, FBO Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Ontario, Canada iTrader: (0) Garage List 2014 BMW 435i Xdrive [0.00]	Real life again please..... If this is knock.... if the JB tune doesn't mod timing... What does this translate too? I still don't have a good answer to this. Put your scientist minds to this please. 1) Less power? I would imagine if it knocks and backs off timing you loose power - but the power results are similar to Procede for RWHP and RWTQ Why? I would expect if it keeps knocking and backing off, would you hear this (as I used to hear it in my Dad's 69 Impala?), or would it bog ? I would think most certainly a drop in power would result... The reported and dyno'd power numbers are high and just as good if not better than other tunes. Please explain why. 2) Mileage... is there any correlation? do the tunes get similar mileage? 3) failures - again.... is there any correlation? do the tunes have a similar number of issues/failures? Seems to me they do, they all have failures/limp modes and bad reports (and all have lots of good ones too). 4) smoothness in delivery... is one tune less smooth than the other? Again, I want to make my decision based on scientific fact... right now, after 30 F'n pages... I am no further ahead and I have a headache from all the intolerance. The only basis I have now is features, performance numbers and support - which all seem to be pretty similar. You keep saying that ignition timing is absolutely necessary and I get that - it makes sense, but not how the JB4 gets it's power if it is f'n up the engine as I believe you are implying by not having timing control and relying on the knock sensor to do it's timing. __________________ 2020 M2 Competition HS, DCT, 763s, Carbon: splitter, side skirt, grill, diffuser, wing Previous: 2014 BMW F32 435iX - JB4, MHD Flash, BMS Meth Kit, ER Intercooler, intake, catless DPs, KW Streets, 437M Reps with 245/35 and 275/30 Michelin PSS 4S
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02-21-2011, 09:22 PM	#675
Fernflex First Lieutenant 49 Rep 334 Posts Drives: E92 Crimson Red 335i Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Guaynabo iTrader: (9)	A fmic will help to get lower Iat's and help a bit, the first log that Mike posted of a JB4 with a clean timing on 90 degrees weather has the Helix fmic. __________________ R56 Cooper S E92 335i E30 332is Burger Tuning, Evolution Racewerks and VRFS in Puerto Rico...
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02-21-2011, 09:48 PM	#682
Shellacked135i Banned 6 Rep 348 Posts Drives: 2010 135i, 09 335xi Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: SoFla iTrader: (1)	This thread started as how the stock ECU controls ignition. It never was about which tune was better. The fanbois simply came in on defensive mode, and thus the tunes came into play. If you look at the very first 10 pages or less, CLAP specifically said its not about what tune you run. To simply look how how it controls on the Stock DME.
	Appreciate 0 Quote