[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by gblansten

Hope you find ways to decompress and enjoy the greatest time humanity has had in history.

[X] Doubt.

[eugenebmw]

BMW is ready to say goodbye to electric cars: They are preparing to launch their new hydrogen car

Hopefully they stick with this direction.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by eugenebmw

BMW is ready to say goodbye to electric cars: They are preparing to launch their new hydrogen car

Hopefully they stick with this direction.

And leave people who overpaid for their IPhone cars with very little support and a super depreciating paperweight

[Lady Jane]

Originally Posted by carseatsm5

“ev startups struggled to build cars. Now they struggle to sell them.”

[RM7]

Originally Posted by eugenebmw

BMW is ready to say goodbye to electric cars: They are preparing to launch their new hydrogen car

Hopefully they stick with this direction.

H2 is asinine. You can't store enough to be useful and it has to bleed off to avoid overpressurizing the system, extreme cold needed to keep it at reasonable PSI or extreme tank needed that will weigh an insane amount. Add to that the infrastructure that doesn't exist, compared to EV where it partially exists. Then extracting H2 energy and the energy used to store and transport it everywhere. It's idiotic. You'll consume far less energy by just sticking to gas for those applications and EV elsewhere. There's no way that BMW or Toyota for that matter go in this direction to any extent other than to secure some continuing gov research grants (why Toyota was doing it). Production is a joke.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by RM7

H2 is asinine. You can't store enough to be useful and it has to bleed off to avoid overpressurizing the system, extreme cold needed to keep it at reasonable PSI or extreme tank needed that will weigh an insane amount. Add to that the infrastructure that doesn't exist, compared to EV where it partially exists. Then extracting H2 energy and the energy used to store and transport it everywhere. It's idiotic. You'll consume far less energy by just sticking to gas for those applications and EV elsewhere. There's no way that BMW or Toyota for that matter go in this direction to any extent other than to secure some continuing gov research grants (why Toyota was doing it). Production is a joke.

It still sounds better than Batteries.

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by RM7

H2 is asinine. You can't store enough to be useful and it has to bleed off to avoid overpressurizing the system, extreme cold needed to keep it at reasonable PSI or extreme tank needed that will weigh an insane amount. Add to that the infrastructure that doesn't exist, compared to EV where it partially exists. Then extracting H2 energy and the energy used to store and transport it everywhere. It's idiotic. You'll consume far less energy by just sticking to gas for those applications and EV elsewhere. There's no way that BMW or Toyota for that matter go in this direction to any extent other than to secure some continuing gov research grants (why Toyota was doing it). Production is a joke.

You sound like one of those raving "anti-EV mutual-masturbation" guys.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

You sound like one of those raving "anti-EV mutual-masturbation" guys.

Because that’s what it is. Change hydrogen to gasoline and it’s the same thing.

[RM7]

EVs don't care what is making the electricity, windmills, hydro-electric, fission, fusion, gas-turbine, etc. That's the beauty of it. With hydrogen...you are stuck to gas-stations, distribution, figuring out how to store the stuff at cryogenic temps, etc. It's idiotic for a regular passenger/family car. It wastes crazy energy and therefore pollution, just getting delivered and in your tank, before you actually combust it in the cylinder, if you didn't have to gas it off outside to prevent over-pressurization.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

It still sounds better than Batteries.

Because you cling to the fact that it is combustion, and nothing else. Get into the math of it:

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by RM7

Because you cling to the fact that it is combustion, and nothing else. Get into the math of it:

The math of it said EVs are dumb long ago - long charge times, pollution from mining, battties that degrade over time with no infrastructure to recycle, no charging stations, high costs - the list goes on

But here you are making excuses for all of that to say another idea - which we already have in practice (with Gasoline) can’t work.

Ok guy.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

The math of it said EVs are dumb long ago - long charge times, pollution from mining, battties that degrade over time with no infrastructure to recycle, no charging stations, high costs - the list goes on

But here you are making excuses for all of that to say another idea - which we already have in practice (with Gasoline) can’t work.

Ok guy.

The hydrogen V8 toyota can go 50 miles with a similar/reasonably sized "tank".

A Tesla can go more than 300 miles.

You're coming off as totally unhinged. You are telling me these hydrogen vehicles are "better"? You'll be out of hydrogen in a few miles and no station in site. Yeah...

[Car-Addicted]

AS usual RM7 is missing the real picture.

A process known as reverse electrolysis takes place in a fuel cell. Hydrogen reacts with oxygen in the process. The hydrogen comes from one or more tanks in the car while the oxygen comes from the ambient air. The only things this reaction produces are electrical energy, heat and water, which exits through the exhaust as water vapor – with no emissions at all.
https://www.bmw.com/en/innovation/ho...cars-work.html

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

AS usual RM7 is missing the real picture.

A process known as reverse electrolysis takes place in a fuel cell. Hydrogen reacts with oxygen in the process. The hydrogen comes from one or more tanks in the car while the oxygen comes from the ambient air. The only things this reaction produces are electrical energy, heat and water, which exits through the exhaust as water vapor – with no emissions at all.
https://www.bmw.com/en/innovation/ho...cars-work.html

I responded to the:

Originally Posted by eugenebmw View Post
BMW is ready to say goodbye to electric cars: They are preparing to launch their new hydrogen car

So I assume the poster must have been talking about hydrogen ICE, because as you know, fuel cell is another way to do an EV, electric motors, batteries, etc.


The issue is making and getting hydrogen everywhere. Yeah, it's as simple as electrolysis to make...but that takes energy, energy which still has to be generated and could simply be sent through the powerlines to an EV. Then energy to compress, energy to transport, energy to store, etc. All the pressure vessels necessary to truck it to the ends of the earth, etc. Anyone can see this is not practical in the big picture/long run. It might work for certain niches where distribution can be centralized, but it nowhere near as flexible as an EV and the world-is-falling-EV-haters know this, they just won't say it.

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by Weather Man

The unhinged part is that there aren't enough strip mines in the world to make an EV world, unless the government decides who/when/where and how you are allowed to drive.

Sadly, the government decides everything anyway

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Weather Man

Tesla decided to flood social media with ads, I wonder why? Not so fun when you're not the only game in town. But good news for those who think having an EV is a good idea.

In a fire sale, Hyundai is offering a rare 0% finance offer on the 2024 IONIQ 5 electric SUV. Hyundai’s new incentive could mean up to $7,800 in savings compared to a same-priced Tesla model.

So many EV ads now and this one added to the toe curling list.

[Murf the Surf]

EV con job perpetrated by Politicians will cost us dearly!

https://parkergallantenergyperspecti...ost-us-dearly/

Let’s go back a few years to examine how politicians and the bureaucrats did their job. The example is related to the auto industry and specifically to VW who were caught claiming their vehicles powered by a “2.0-litre Volkswagen and Audi diesel engine reduced emissions but they used “defeat devices” during official tests to obtain that claim. As a result they were faced with huge fines in Canada ($2.1 billion) by the Competition Bureau and in the US they were fined $14.7 billion by several authorities under their competition laws as well as the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). VW were forced to lay off 30,000 employees globally after settlement!

Today we should wonder what has happened to the Competition Bureau here in Canada and in the US by the EPA related to “mileage claims” by EV manufacturers. Those manufacturers are being called out frequently because their claims often vastly exceed the actual range. One such article: “On Car and Driver‘s 75-mph highway test, more than 350 internal combustion vehicles averaged 4.0 percent better fuel economy than what was stated on their window stickers. But the average range for an EV was 12.5 percent worse than the window sticker numbers, the magazine says. Uh oh.“

We should wonder will the EPA in the US and the Competition Bureau here in Canada follow up and fine those EV manufacturers to the same degree as VW which in the latter’s case represented $20K per vehicle sold in Canada with that diesel engine. We should suspect not as EV will reputedly reduce our emissions! The latter claim by our politicians are humorous when one realizes that most of the batteries utilized to power those EV were manufactured in China where they operate over 1,140 coal fired generation plants used to produce those batteries! So because those batteries are manufactured in China, they contain no emissions nor did they create any, ha, ha!

Other Politically Induced EV benefits for Manufacturers:

Despite all the billions thrown at the concept of “transportation” conversion by pushing the EV narrative over the past several years there is lots more destined to find its way into their revenue stream! One of those in the US are “regulatory credits” which keep growing and will continue to grow as more automobile manufacturers convert to producing more of them in order to comply with the political push. As one example in reviewing Tesla Inc’s December 31, 2023, financial statement filed with the SEC one notes they report revenue from “regulatory credits” amounted to US $1.790 billion which represented 31.7% of Tesla’s net income after taxes. We should suspect selling those “regulatory credits” did not entail Tesla increasing their costs of operation to any great extent!

So we should all wonder what are those “regulatory credits”?

A July 2020 article from Yahoo Finance titled: “What Are EV Regulatory Credits And Why Is Tesla Selling So Many Of Them?“ gave us the answer which is: “Environmental emissions programs around the world, such as the Zero Emissions Vehicle (ZEV) program in California, give out credits to automakers that produce and sell electric vehicles. In addition to California, there are at least 13 other U.S. states that have similar programs in place. If an automaker doesn’t have enough credits by the end of the year, it could face punishment from state regulators.“ The article goes on to cite the following: “For example, Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV (NYSE: FCAU) has reportedly committed to buying $1.27 billion in credits from Tesla to comply with new European environmental regulations that go into effect in 2021.“ It appears to be simply more punishment for any manufacturer of ICE vehicles for the benefit of those producing only EV! It also raises the price of an ICE presumably to decrease the difference in price between those nasty fossil fuel emitting vehicles and those non-emitting batteries (sarcasm intended) supplied principally by China!

How those Regulatory Credits are Defined:

It became readily apparent recently that the US Energy Department stands by its rules for ICE but has a different set of rules for EV as the Wall Street Journal disclosed in an article on January 24th, 2024. The article was titled: “The Secret Is Out” Wall Street Journal Breaks Massive Government EV Cheating Scandal (greenbuildingelements.com)”. It also popped up on a YouTube Video at the following link: BREAKING: Government Cheating Scandal Unveils EV’s as a Massive Scam! (youtube.com)! From the article linked above:

The scandal, hidden away in the Federal Register, challenges the integrity of the government’s approach to enforcing fuel-efficiency rules for electric cars. Unlike the high-profile cases involving diesel emissions cheating, this scandal surrounding electric cars has garnered considerably less attention. The article notes:

At the heart of the issue is a little-known rule buried on page 36,987 of volume 65 in the Federal Register and articulates it as follows:

The Values to Be Used: Automakers must use actual values measured in a lab environment when testing gasoline-powered vehicles for compliance with the Transportation Department’s fuel-efficiency regulations. However, the Energy Department has a different set of rules for electric cars.

The incredible SCAM:

According to this rule, carmakers are allowed to multiply the efficiency of electric cars by a factor of 6.67 arbitrarily. This means that a 2022 Tesla Model Y, for example, which tests at the equivalent of about 65 miles per gallon in a laboratory, is counted as having a compliance value of a staggering 430 mpg.” I would note the Car and Driver testing range did not find one Tesla model that achieved a total charged range of 430 miles and perhaps that is why on January 5th, 2024 an article in Yahoo Finance stated: “Tesla has cut back claims about how far its electric cars can travel as it faces scrutiny from the US government.“ The article stated Tesla did not give a reason for the adjustment.

Is the SCAM coming to Canada:

Surely many Canadians are familiar with our Minister of the Environment and Climate Change, Steven Guilbeault’s push to impose his “Clean Energy Regulations”, encompassing rules, to force each and every province and territory in Canada to abide by his views on saving the planet from CO 2 emissions. The provincial pushbacks were extensive so those plans have recently been slightly modified but will still impose incredible harm on the generation of reliable electricity due to their push for a “net-zero” grid. The proposed changes were recently summarized in a article in the Financial Post but as noted the changes are moderate so Guilbeault has sought further input but we should suspect he will simply ignore any that deviate from his inane desire to impose his personal views!

Minister Guilbeault is taking Canada on the same path as California and those other 13 US states pushing the EV agenda as the above noted article states: “Companies would also be allowed to buy carbon offsets to compensate for overshooting their assigned limits.“ The Government’s webpage goes further as it states: “ Canada is joining some of the world’s largest economies – including the United States – in committing to clean electricity to power our vehicles, heat our buildings and support our industries.“ One should wonder who will be allowed to sell those “carbon offsets”? Many of the companies forced to purchase them will be provincially owned “fossil fuel” generation plants in most provinces adding costs to the price of electricity delivered to your home or business.

Based on the outright lies Minister Guilbeault spouts off about in his two-minute video such as his claim the transformation to green energy will create over 2 million jobs as reputedly claimed in the following chart!


Interestingly, it appears the Trudeau led government fully anticipates the foregoing will happen as they already appear to have released draft regulations under tax legislation which only appears to have been noticed by the larger business-related law firms but not by the media!

The Law firm Osler presented a good synopsis of the draft regulations on their website referenced as: “Canada releases long-awaited draft legislation for tax credits supporting the clean energy sector. The article focuses on draft legislation for the “Clean Technology Investment Tax Credit (Clean Technology ITC)“ which will hand out “tax credits” to “renewable energy companies” but the article does not clarify if those tax credits will reduce their taxes or allow them to sell them for revenue!

The article stated the “tax credits” will be handed to eligible companies involved in all of the following “green” technologies:

“zero-emission electricity generation technologies, like solar, wind, small hydro, concentrated solar energy and small modular nuclear reactors;

electricity storage systems that do not use fossil fuels in their operations, like batteries, flywheels, compressed air energy storage, pumped hydroelectric energy storage, gravity energy storage and thermal energy storage;

certain active solar heating equipment, air-source heat pumps and ground-source heat pumps;

equipment used exclusively for generating electrical energy or heat (or a combination) solely from geothermal energy, but excluding any equipment that is part of a system that extracts both heat from geothermal fluid and fossil fuel for sale or use; and

non-road zero-emission vehicles that are fully electric or powered by hydrogen, and charging or refueling equipment primarily used to support such vehicles.“

At this juncture Canada’s production of EV are nil with the only exception being some buses for transit use purposes along with some school buses. Those transit and school buses have not met the standards of similar ICE powered ones creating problems for communities from coast to coast even though their costs were approximately double of what ICE powered ones would have cost. Needless to say they received lots of taxpayer dollars suppled by Federal, Provincial and municipal governments.

While no electric vehicles are currently manufactured in Canada they are reputedly on the way if and when the VW and Stellantis EV plants in Ontario are up and running after receiving combined (federal and provincial) taxpayer subsidies of $30 billion. We should suspect when they are in production, they will be either handed “tax credits” or “regulatory credits” to sell, similar to the US!

Conclusion:

What we taxpayers should be concerned about is how the bloom is slowly falling off the rose of EV replacing ICE as for the first time in a decade, EV sales in California fell in the last half of 2023 and throughout the US dealer lots have twice the level of inventory of EV as ICE. On top of that many auto manufacturers have postponed their planned expansions. In Canada, BC and Quebec have almost achieved the 20% EV sales target mandated for 2026 but the balance of the provinces are well behind that target. The question then becomes, what happens if the targets set for EV (20% of all sales by 2026, 60% by 2030 and 100% by 2035) miss their mark or are not hit in certain provinces? Will those provinces where sales miss the targets suffer from Federal cutbacks or from penalties such as higher taxes for its citizens and businesses?

It sure looks like Canada may be heading for a downward spiral in our economy caused by the Trudeau Government much like Tesla Inc is experiencing currently with its market value having fallen by $188 billion and having been overtaken by BYD of China in overall EV sales globally!

We should wonder, why have politicians and bureaucrats done an about face on commonsense planning due to CO 2 emissions by embracing rules and establishing regulations demanded by eco-warriors to the detriment to the citizens of democratic countries?

Oh yes, EV get 430 miles to the equivalent of a gallon of gasoline and pigs can fly!

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by RM7

I responded to the:



So I assume the poster must have been talking about hydrogen ICE, because as you know, fuel cell is another way to do an EV, electric motors, batteries, etc.


The issue is making and getting hydrogen everywhere. Yeah, it's as simple as electrolysis to make...but that takes energy, energy which still has to be generated and could simply be sent through the powerlines to an EV. Then energy to compress, energy to transport, energy to store, etc. All the pressure vessels necessary to truck it to the ends of the earth, etc. Anyone can see this is not practical in the big picture/long run. It might work for certain niches where distribution can be centralized, but it nowhere near as flexible as an EV and the world-is-falling-EV-haters know this, they just won't say it.

100% agree. Hydrogen is not a good mobile fuel; great for rockets though. The EV drivetrain make the most sense. Battery storage for electrical energy doesn't. Gasoline/diesel make for great mobile fuels because of their energy density.

Do the math and it's obvious an ICE-series-hybrid EV is the solution. With the hundreds of billions being spent on all things peripheral to BEV adoption, the internal combustion engine could be doubled in efficiency with comparative miniscule investment dollars. The solution is obvious, simple, and short-term in development, but sadly, politically incorrect.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

100% agree. Hydrogen is not a good mobile fuel; great for rockets though. The EV drivetrain make the most sense. Battery storage for electrical energy doesn't. Gasoline/diesel make for great mobile fuels because of their energy density.

Do the math and it's obvious an ICE-series-hybrid EV is the solution. With the hundreds of billions being spent on all things peripheral to BEV adoption, the internal combustion engine could be doubled in efficiency with comparative miniscule investment dollars. The solution is obvious, simple, and short-term in development, but sadly, politically incorrect.

In the interim, I agree, however, battery energy density IS at useful/practical levels now. Because there are many different used/applications, its not for every use and may never be, but it has “broken through” and is here to stay.

[crAbb]

Reality bites.
We don't want your plug in cars.

https://www.businessinsider.com/merc...GH2H1xUkSAJOsw

[eugenebmw]

Originally Posted by Weather Man

The unhinged part is that there aren't enough strip mines in the world to make an EV world, unless the government decides who/when/where and how you are allowed to drive.

EV owners don't care anything. They have stated very clearly in their posts.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by RM7

In the interim, I agree, however, battery energy density IS at useful/practical levels now. Because there are many different used/applications, its not for every use and may never be, but it has “broken through” and is here to stay.

Eh, I'm not so sure a 150 mile winter range at the price level of $45K - $55K fits the market for people who have no private over-night charging access. That where battery tech is now, pricey, sub 200 mile usable range. I don't see the current chemistry getting much better energy density. Solid-state is supposed to be the answer, but that starts back at the top of a 15 year cost curve and where does that leave the in-progress charging network buildout? It will be a generation behind. The network already is a generation (or format at least) behind when Tesla opens up some of its network and manufacturers jump over to the NACS to take advantage of Teslas network. MORE tax dollars will be printed up.

While you say EV doesn't care where or how the electrons come from, true, but ICE all take the same pump nozzle and can burn the same fuel. ICE can burn lots of different source-derived fuels too, which can be distributed over the current refueling network. The Greens just don't like emissions and that's the main problem pushing ICE efficiency forward.