[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Captain Blood

He wasn't barricaded, the door was probably not even locked.

Sigh! You don't know what you're talking about. This is why people who don't work in law enforcement and who have no experience with criminal apprehension need to educate themselves before speaking (…and reason without emotion; a difficult task, but it can be done).


Here's a bit of education for you. The moment somebody runs into a four sided structure and visibility is lost, they become a barricaded suspect. Whether or not the door is locked is irrelevant.

[Captain Blood]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

What does their manual of policy and procedures say about BARRICADED suspects? Research it, get informed and get back to me. Thanks.

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/21/11063...pete-arredondo

A top Texas law enforcement official said that there were enough armed police officers wearing body armor to stop the late May shooting at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, three minutes after it began.

But instead, it took about an hour and 14 minutes from when officers arrived at the school to when they breached the door and ended the standoff with the gunman.

That was according to Steve McCraw, director of the Texas Department of Public Safety, who spoke to state officials during a Texas Senate committee hearing on Tuesday.

Within the first 3 minutes of the attack, there were at least nine officers out in the hallway, he said. There were at least two armed with rifles and a body shield, McCraw said. They also had bulletproof vests.

"The officers had weapons, the children had none. The officers had body armor, the children had none. The officers had training, the subject had none," McCraw said.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Captain Blood

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/21/11063...pete-arredondo

A top Texas law enforcement official said that there were enough armed police officers wearing body armor to stop the late May shooting at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, three minutes after it began.

But instead, it took about an hour and 14 minutes from when officers arrived at the school to when they breached the door and ended the standoff with the gunman.

That was according to Steve McCraw, director of the Texas Department of Public Safety, who spoke to state officials during a Texas Senate committee hearing on Tuesday.

Within the first 3 minutes of the attack, there were at least nine officers out in the hallway, he said. There were at least two armed with rifles and a body shield, McCraw said. They also had bulletproof vests.

"The officers had weapons, the children had none. The officers had body armor, the children had none. The officers had training, the subject had none," McCraw said.

ALL of that is irrelevant as it pertains to policy and procedure for barricaded suspects (…presuming their policy is like most major law enforcement departments). The timeframe isn't unusual when you consider resources, tactical plans, crisis intervention negotiators, etc.

P.S. I respond to AT LEAST two barricaded suspect calls a week (…probably cumulatively more than the entire line of Uvalde Police Department officers once you extrapolate that number over years). I have plenty of field experience with these types of calls and what they entail.

[Captain Blood]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

ALL of that is irrelevant as it pertains to policy and procedure for barricaded suspects. The timeframe isn't unusual when you consider resources, tactical plans, crisis intervention negotiators, etc.

P.S. I respond to at least 2 barricaded suspects calls a week. I have plenty of field experience.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politic...chool-shooting

Apparently the police were scared of that A.R. 15

He tells the dispatcher that he doesn't have a radio with him. Arredondo says he's in the hallway and that the shooter is in rooms 111 and 112. Arredondo says, "we need this place surrounded and if you have SWAT I need them set up." Arredondo tells the dispatcher, "We don't have enough firepower right now it's all pistol and he has an AR-15." He says he needs a radio and a rifle.

Every report I've seen has indicated the gunner was not barricaded, and the door was probably not locked.

How could've the gunner shot 100 rounds and created a barricade in the two minutes between when he started shooting and the police were in the hallway?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Captain Blood

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politic...chool-shooting

Apparently the police were scared of that A.R. 15

He tells the dispatcher that he doesn't have a radio with him. Arredondo says he's in the hallway and that the shooter is in rooms 111 and 112. Arredondo says, "we need this place surrounded and if you have SWAT I need them set up." Arredondo tells the dispatcher, "We don't have enough firepower right now it's all pistol and he has an AR-15." He says he needs a radio and a rifle.

Every report I've seen has indicated the gunner was not barricaded, and the door was probably not locked.

How could've the gunner shot 100 rounds and created a barricade in the two minutes between when he started shooting and the police were in the hallway?

It's not about "creating a barricade" in the traditional sense. I try to be patient with you and explain procedure as best I can, but your intention isn't truly to learn anything about how these situations are handled. Your intention is to push an agenda and incite. I explained a few posts above that entering a four sided structure (…e.g. a building, a shed, a room within a residence or building, etc.) coupled with the loss of visibility/visual confirmation results in the situation being categorized as a barricaded suspect. The door being locked or not is irrelevant. Not knowing what is on the other side of the structure (…e.g…other assailants, a bomb/booby-trap, the suspect's vantage point and location within the structure, etc.) are just a few reasons why we do not rush in blind. Tactical considerations are extremely important. One could argue that the situation could've been categorized as a barricaded suspect/hostage situation because there were children in the room, making tactics even that much more integral to the process.


https://pars.lasd.org/Viewer/Manuals...Content/12117#!

Here is a link to LASD's policy with multiple tabs to outline each part of the process. Read the policy in its entirely. Hopefully you will find it resourceful.

[///d]

I swear Cap'n just sits and waits for the slightest hinting at gun control in this thread so he can chime in about Uvalde.

If you're so sure you have things figured out, then go to the academy and become an officer, run for office, educate yourself of things you don't know about, and put yourself in positions to try and make things better instead of coming to an online forum trying to get a rise out of people who were having good conversation before you butted in.

[Captain Blood]

Originally Posted by ///d

I swear Cap'n just sits and waits for the slightest hinting at gun control in this thread so he can chime in about Uvalde.

If you're so sure you have things figured out, then go to the academy and become an officer, run for office, educate yourself of things you don't know about, and put yourself in positions to try and make things better instead of coming to an online forum trying to get a rise out of people who were having good conversation before you butted in.

"Educate yourself": Maga code for I don't understand but I'm going to be condescending

[Captain Blood]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

It is too late for that (….referencing keeping it out of the hands of evil people). You asking me that question is the equivalent of you asking me, "How can we keep drugs off of the streets?" ….We can't! No law, no party lines…..nothing…..will keep that from happening. THAT is the reality. The idea that we can legislate these things from occurring is completely flawed thinking/reasoning. Evil people will find a way to meet their objective(s). They ALWAYS do!

No, I didn't hear about that particular officer, but I also don't know why her statement would be surprising to anybody. What else would someone expect her to say? That was rhetorical; I don't need an answer.

https://www.tcole.texas.gov/sites/de...201-30-20.docx

This is what Texas police officers educate themselves on on active shooter school events. Probably different from the blockade situation you encounter on a weekly basis. Again, tell me how this became a blockaded situation when he fired over 100 shots in the two minutes before the officers were outside the door to the classroom? Did he really have time to block himself in? All recent reports say he did not block himself in. And from reading the manual, the correct response was for the police officers to go in. Even if wounded. Please read the manual and tell me about how my interpretation is incorrect.


​PRIORITY OF LIFE

First responders to the active shooter scene will usually be required to place themselves in harm's way and display uncommon acts of courage to save the innocent. First responders must understand and accept the role of "Protector" and be prepared to meet violence with controlled aggression. The Priority of Life Scale is used to guide first responders during the critical decision making process that is required to effectively neutralize any threats. As first responders we must recognize that innocent life must be defended. A first responder unwilling to place the lives of the innocent above their own safety should consider another career field.

This scale does not suggest that any first responder approach the mission with reckless abandon for safety. The first responder using effective tactics coupled with situational awareness can isolate, distract, and neutralize the actor(s), while mitigating the loss of innocent life.

Priority of Life Scale
1. Innocent civilians
2. First responders
3. Offenders

[UncleWede]

Originally Posted by Captain Blood

Again, tell me how this became a blockaded situation

I generally like you Cap'n, but this has been explained to you several times, and you simply won't acknowledge it. How many rounds he fired in 2 minutes is not germane to the discussion. He was in a classroom (4 walls) with the door closed, and could not be seen: barricaded. Not necessarily the dictionary definition, but that's not what the cops are using in their application of tactics.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

I generally like you Cap'n, but this has been explained to you several times, and you simply won't acknowledge it. How many rounds he fired in 2 minutes is not germane to the discussion. He was in a classroom (4 walls) with the door closed, and could not be seen: barricaded. Not necessarily the dictionary definition, but that's not what the cops are using in their application of tactics.

Thank you! It's exhausting.

[rwheels]

While many of you disagree with Captain, I would like to ask what would any of you have done differently if you were one of these officers, and it was your own child that was stuck in this one classroom? Weapons and blame, are going to be with us until we die, but I hope we still have human values. Just read any story of a Medal of Honor recipient. It is rare that they do what they do, due to their training. More so, they accomplish their feats due to the necessity of what needs to be accomplished at the moment. For whatever reason, their own lives seemed insignificant at the moment, and while I agree that many have received these awards posthumously, many lives were saved because of their actions. Personally, I could not bear to bury my own child without me trying to do something about changing his final outcome; my life, or my child's life?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by rwheels

While many of you disagree with Captain, I would like to ask what would any of you have done differently if you were one of these officers, and it was your own child that was stuck in this one classroom? Weapons and blame, are going to be with us until we die, but I hope we still have human values. Just read any story of a Medal of Honor recipient. It is rare that they do what they do, due to their training. More so, they accomplish their feats due to the necessity of what needs to be accomplished at the moment. For whatever reason, their own lives seemed insignificant at the moment, and while I agree that many have received these awards posthumously, many lives were saved because of their actions. Personally, I could not bear to bury my own child without me trying to do something about changing his final outcome; my life, or my child's life?

The reality is……


…..I don't know. I would like to say that I would just run in, guns blazing, tactics be damned, but it's hard to say because my experience has taught me that will not work. There was an officer whose child died in that classroom. I'm sure he considered doing exactly that, but maybe he defaulted to his training and relied on developing a tactical advantage (…considering the shooter fired a few rounds through the walls when he knew officers were outside). If you had asked him a month earlier what he would do in that hypothetical situation, his default response probably would have been, "I'm running in, neutralizing the threat and rescuing my kid. Nobody is going to stop me!!!" …..but the reality is a much more nuanced situation to analyze, create a strategy and address. I know it's hard for people to conceive these things when they've never been through it, so I understand the need to pose questions.

[rwheels]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

The reality is……


…..I don't know. I would like to say that I would just run in, guns blazing, tactics be damned, but it's hard to say because my experience has taught me that will not work. There was an officer whose child died in that classroom. I'm sure he considered doing exactly that, but maybe he defaulted to his training and relied on developing a tactical advantage (…considering the shooter fired a few rounds through the walls when he knew officers were outside). I know it's hard for people to conceive these things when they've never been through it, so I understand the need to pose questions.

I don't know if it has happened too you where you post something, and then kind of regret it later... Unfortunately this incident will be armchair quarterbacked for quite some time, and little will change. My feeling is that these guys just had bad leadership, and they are being the scapegoats. Thanks for your clarifications.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by rwheels

I don't know if it has happened too you where you post something, and then kind of regret it later... Unfortunately this incident will be armchair quarterbacked for quite some time, and little will change. My feeling is that these guys just had bad leadership, and they are being the scapegoats. Thanks for your clarifications.

I agree that it will be armchair quarterbacked for years to come. I also agree that many of them are being treated as scapegoats, including the Chief himself. It is the reality that somebody has to shoulder the blame, even if they aren't the person(s)/people who deserve it.

I try to be as honest as possible with my responses here and paint accurate depictions of the realities of the profession because that's the entire purpose of this thread. I don't think for one minute any of those officers are/were cowards. You cannot don this uniform everyday and have a cowardice mindset (…which isn't to say we never get scared; I've been scared a bunch of times). The cowards quit! I've seen it time & time again. The dynamics are just hard to put into words. You would have to be in the situation [or a similar situation] to truly get a feel for the atmosphere everybody on scene experienced.

[///d]

Originally Posted by rwheels

While many of you disagree with Captain, I would like to ask what would any of you have done differently if you were one of these officers, and it was your own child that was stuck in this one classroom? Weapons and blame, are going to be with us until we die, but I hope we still have human values. Just read any story of a Medal of Honor recipient. It is rare that they do what they do, due to their training. More so, they accomplish their feats due to the necessity of what needs to be accomplished at the moment. For whatever reason, their own lives seemed insignificant at the moment, and while I agree that many have received these awards posthumously, many lives were saved because of their actions. Personally, I could not bear to bury my own child without me trying to do something about changing his final outcome; my life, or my child's life?

As Sedan said, no idea. It's impossible to know what one would have done in the moment, but it's easy to say what should have been done in hindsight.

With risk of backlash on myself I'll try to explain this. Military tactics are different than law enforcements. We look for and run to the fight. If the enemy barricades themselves in a room we breach the room and eliminate the threat with an accepted risk of loss of life. Military also is heavily trained for such things, far more than patrol officers. Most officers did not join the force wanting to be shot at, most door kickers in the military cant wait for the opportunity. Different mentality.

In regards to MOH recipients, I disagree with your statement that its rare that they do what they do because of training, it IS their training that causes them to do what they do. Military is heavily and extensively trained to maintain composure and awareness and run towards the fight, far more than patrol officers. When shit hits the fan training kicks in and takes over, it's muscle memory, and every MOH recipient or war hero will tell you that their training kicked in and thats wat got them through it.

Military trains to eliminate the threat, law enforcement trains to save lives.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by ///d

As Sedan said, no idea. It's impossible to know what one would have done in the moment, but it's easy to say what should have been done in hindsight.

With risk of backlash on myself I'll try to explain this. Military tactics are different than law enforcements. We look for and run to the fight. If the enemy barricades themselves in a room we breach the room and eliminate the threat with an accepted risk of loss of life. Military also is heavily trained for such things, far more than patrol officers. Most officers did not join the force wanting to be shot at, most door kickers in the military cant wait for the opportunity. Different mentality.

In regards to MOH recipients, I disagree with your statement that its rare that they do what they do because of training, it IS their training that causes them to do what they do. Military is heavily and extensively trained to maintain composure and awareness and run towards the fight, far more than patrol officers. When shit hits the fan training kicks in and takes over, it's muscle memory, and every MOH recipient or war hero will tell you that their training kicked in and thats wat got them through it.

Military trains to eliminate the threat, law enforcement trains to save lives.

…and to add to this, the rules of engagement are different. The liability is different. There are other considerations that those involved in warfare don't need to worry about.

[rwheels]

Originally Posted by ///d

As Sedan said, no idea. It's impossible to know what one would have done in the moment, but it's easy to say what should have been done in hindsight.

With risk of backlash on myself I'll try to explain this. Military tactics are different than law enforcements. We look for and run to the fight. If the enemy barricades themselves in a room we breach the room and eliminate the threat with an accepted risk of loss of life. Military also is heavily trained for such things, far more than patrol officers. Most officers did not join the force wanting to be shot at, most door kickers in the military cant wait for the opportunity. Different mentality.

In regards to MOH recipients, I disagree with your statement that its rare that they do what they do because of training, it IS their training that causes them to do what they do. Military is heavily and extensively trained to maintain composure and awareness and run towards the fight, far more than patrol officers. When shit hits the fan training kicks in and takes over, it's muscle memory, and every MOH recipient or war hero will tell you that their training kicked in and thats wat got them through it.

Military trains to eliminate the threat, law enforcement trains to save lives.

To clarify what I stated, this is a quote from Gary Wetzel, who got his arm blown off in Vietnam
https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2015/09/17/medal-of-honor-recipients

"I just did a job," he told me. "I didn't do anything more or less than the guys to my left or right. And it wasn't because I hated those men who were attacking us. I did it because I loved my brothers to the left and right."
Again, human values are what these guys seem to understand. I agree with your points, but then every military person would be accomplishing much the same.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by rwheels

To clarify what I stated, this is a quote from Gary Wetzel, who got his arm blown off in Vietnam
[SIZE="1"]https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2015...nor-recipients[/SIZE]

"I just did a job," he told me. "I didn't do anything more or less than the guys to my left or right. And it wasn't because I hated those men who were attacking us. I did it because I loved my brothers to the left and right."
Again, human values are what these guys seem to understand. I agree with your points, but then every military person would be accomplishing much the same.

You seem to be implying that military men and women value life, but policemen and women don't?!?!? Is that what you're saying?

[///d]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

…and to add to this, the rules of engagement are different. The liability is different. There are other considerations that those involved in warfare don't need to worry about.

Agreed. If the military is kicking down a door to get a bad guy chances are its only the bad guy or his bad guy friends in there, but if a civilian is killed in the crossfire its the cost of war, as bad as that sounds.

If police bust down a door and civilians are killed in the cross fire thats a whole different thing, and in the case of an active shooter rounds will start flying everywhere.

It's not as clean and simple as hollywood makes it seem.

[rwheels]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

You seem to be implying that military men and women value life, but policemen and women don't?!?!? Is that what you're saying?

I believe I was referring to the reason these Medal of Honor recipients do what they do, and I’m certain that your profession has similar awards.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by ///d

Agreed. If the military is kicking down a door to get a bad guy chances are its only the bad guy or his bad guy friends in there, but if a civilian is killed in the crossfire its the cost of war, as bad as that sounds.

If police bust down a door and civilians are killed in the cross fire thats a whole different thing, and in the case of an active shooter rounds will start flying everywhere.

It's not as clean and simple as hollywood makes it seem.

+1

You see how the media and certain segments of the public responded when Breonna Taylor was shot and killed (…all while ignoring many of the facts, including the one surrounding her boyfriend using her as a shield).

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by rwheels

I believe I was referring to the reason these Medal of Honor recipients do what they do, and I'm certain that your profession has similar awards.

Yes, we have similar items of recognition for bravery and going above and beyond the call of duty (…which isn't always giving the ultimate sacrifice).