[Sniz]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The scary part is that it's Terry, not Mike, posting this nonsense. At this point, I'm guessing Mike just holds his breathe and crosses his fingers when Terry gives him something to post.

Originally Posted by Clap135

No that was all mike, Terry isnt that stupid.

And if that post was actually posted by Terry, then may god help all the jb3 users out there cause that was biggest case of BULLSHIT I have ever heard.

Terry / Shiv


I've never had so much fun w these smilies.

continue.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Clap135

knock is not knock, there are different 'levels' of knock. Knocking because timing is off by 1-2 degrees and knocking because timing is off by 5 degrees is alot different. If i were terry I would put a halt to your posts because you are making it look even worse

Looks like its the other way around to me or least you don't understand what I'm saying. The DME does not dump 5 degrees of timing in suddenly and listen to see what happened. It adds timing back at more like 1/4 degree increments. It adds back that 1/4 degree time and time again until it gets back up to maximum. If the CPS offset is not enough to cover the required timing reduction, and it never is, then you're always in a constant state of the DME adding back in 1/4 degree sensing knock and backing off.

Mike

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Looks like its the other way around to me or least you don't understand what I'm saying. The DME does not dump 5 degrees of timing in suddenly and listen to see what happened. It adds timing back at more like 1/4 degree increments. It adds back that 1/4 degree time and time again until it gets back up to maximum. If the CPS offset is not enough to cover the required timing reduction, and it never is, then you're always in a constant state of the DME adding back in 1/4 degree sensing knock and backing off.

Mike

So what happens when a dme that is meant to run 10-13 degrees of timing on stock boost sees 16psi all of a sudden? It knocks, and then knocks some more, and knocks some more untill it finally lowers it down, and then you shift/add heat and it knocks some more. The question here is not whats happening once the car is adapted, its what happens during adaptation or when conditions change. Try again.

[ultimateendz]

clap...please find your self to my autotune thread and comment on the latest log....thankyou

[Clap135]

BTW like stated on n54 tech before they banned me due to me taking away jb3 customers.

Take a hard shift at redline for example. TONS of jb3 users bog, this bog is caused by more then just the boost being overshot and the dme closing the throttle. This is caused by pure and utter KNOCK that is felt with the bog in acceleration. You know why the procede gets rid of it? Because it drops timing in MT cars by 3-4 degrees during the shift. There not adapting to that, you know why? Because the load you hit on a hard 2-3 or 3-4 shift happens so quick that dme cant catch up untill its too late and knock has already taken place. You offset the teeth and you avoid this to begin with.

Just another reason why cps/timing is important.
I suggest you stick with selling parts, you seem to be a much better salesman.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

If the CPS offset is not enough to cover the required timing reduction, and it never is, then you're always in a constant state of the DME adding back in 1/4 degree sensing knock and backing off.

Mike

Not feelin it Bro.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by ultimateendz

clap...please find your self to my autotune thread and comment on the latest log....thankyou

I glimpsed over it. You added race gas and got timing. That is not a solution unless you plan on running race gas all the time. Leave auto tune on and drop the boost or add meth.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Looks like its the other way around to me or least you don't understand what I'm saying. The DME does not dump 5 degrees of timing in suddenly and listen to see what happened. It adds timing back at more like 1/4 degree increments. It adds back that 1/4 degree time and time again until it gets back up to maximum. If the CPS offset is not enough to cover the required timing reduction, and it never is, then you're always in a constant state of the DME adding back in 1/4 degree sensing knock and backing off.

Mike

Either you still don't get it or are pusposely trying to obscure the reality of how a knock control system works. Or just making a incredibly off-base statement just to make it look like you didn't "give up"... Which is probably what you should probably do at this point.

What you are describing is knock retard decay which has NOTHING TO DO WITH AVOIDING SERIOUS KNOCK IN THE FIRST PLACE. Which is the reason for changing ignition timing targets (via dme remapping or CPS offsetting) in the first place.

Please stop.

Shiv

[ultimateendz]

Originally Posted by Clap135

I glimpsed over it. You added race gas and got timing. That is not a solution unless you plan on running race gas all the time. Leave auto tune and drop the boost or add meth.

knowing me....yea ill have stock in this stuff until matt installs the meth into my car...just wanted to see if you approve of the timing for the mix of 93/109

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by ultimateendz

knowing me....yea ill have stock in this stuff until matt installs the meth into my car...just wanted to see if you approve of the timing for the mix of 93/109

Timing looks great lol, You are probably faster not only because of the timing but also due to the weight reduction in your wallet. You will love meth, just make sure you pay attention to the failsafe part.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Either you still don't get it or are pusposely trying to obscure the reality of how a knock control system works. Or just making a incredibly off-base statement just to make it look like you didn't "give up"... Which is probably what you should probably do at this point.

What you are describing is knock retard decay which has NOTHING TO DO WITH AVOIDING SERIOUS KNOCK IN THE FIRST PLACE. Which is the reason for changing ignition timing targets (via dme remapping or CPS offsetting) in the first place.

Please stop.

Shiv

I see now why you get get called an asshole. If i had a horse in this race I would be flipping out. You actually respond alot better than I ever would. It just sad that the newbies who don't know any better actually think you are an asshole based on your posts. I'm already angry and I posted my 10 times in this thread. Screw this, good luck with it lol.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Clap135

So what happens when a dme that is meant to run 10-13 degrees of timing on stock boost sees 16psi all of a sudden? It knocks, and then knocks some more, and knocks some more untill it finally lowers it down, and then you shift/add heat and it knocks some more. The question here is not whats happening once the car is adapted, its what happens during adaptation or when conditions change. Try again.

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about when the car is adapted. During adaptions runs stock or otherwise the DME needs to pull timing fast and when you look at logs you'll see it does that very well. Just don't ask it to make up for a meth failsafe system @ 18.5psi.

Mike

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about when the car is adapted. During adaptions runs stock or otherwise the DME needs to pull timing fast and when you look at logs you'll see it does that very well. Just don't ask it to make up for a meth failsafe system @ 18.5psi.

Mike

you not talking about that because it doesn't favor your tune. Conditions constantly change, having the ability to control those changes with timing offsets is key. The initial hit during adaptation the car takes is amazing, but the smaller hits it takes during longer wot pulls as things heat up, load increases, turbos run out of breath is just as devastating. Showing a dyno pull with good timing or a 3rd gear run with good timing is USELESS. You need to be able to tune for at least a 1st-4th gear pull with no knock and no major timing drops. Theres a reason why the top guys who tune in this industry take a car for a road tune after they strap it off the dyno. This reason avoids you because there is NOTHING you can do about it.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about when the car is adapted. During adaptions runs stock or otherwise the DME needs to pull timing fast and when you look at logs you'll see it does that very well. Just don't ask it to make up for a meth failsafe system @ 18.5psi.

Mike

You're not talking about pre-adaption conditions because your "tune" fails that test miserably. And the truth this, it is pre-adaption performance that is what is imporant to long term engine health/wear/tear. Because this is no such is "post-adaption". ie, the DME is always adapting to conditions.

Have you EVER admitted to your customers why the jb3 needs a few days of "adaption" to drive smoothly?

Answer: It's because it is knocking terribly until the DME throws all the safety measures it can at the problem (which it interprets as a low octane fuel condition). And after that, it knocks regularly as it constantly attempts to slide its way up to the normal low det timing advance map. The funny part of it is that is FACT. Yet it is something you two (Terry/Mike) will never admit.

Shiv

[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

Finally a comment on Flash tuning. Flash tuning has its own benefits. In the case that the flash programmers have enough knowledge, it would be the best solution. Unfortunately this is not the case on this platform. In my observation, the flash tuners can only retune the tables BMW programmed. The problem is that the algorthms themselves are hardcoded, and they are not always optimised for the requirements of higher boost levels (witness the boost oscillations most flashes experience at higher boost levels). Until the flash tunes can rewrite the algorithms and write new ones (like meth support etc), I think the piggybacks will have the edge.

Wait wait... Are you claiming that Vishnu has actually seen the code behind the ECU flashes for N54? You must have, considering how confident you are that ECU tuners only change a the tables that BMW programmed.

How about Dinan flash having the ability to change the coolant pump duty cycle depending on engine conditions? Where is procede's support for this feature which seems to be very important considering that BMW themselves focus quite a bit on engine cooling with the PPK and the 335is and the upcoming M version of the 1 series.

Or perhaps you have enough information to claim that GIAC team do not possess enough knowledge to create a proper ECU reflash? Based on what? Any source code of their work that you have personally seen that you can share with us? No, right? I guess it is extremely easy to ignore the number of platforms GIAC has tuned in the past and how many competitions their cars are winning. ...or how about the fact that GIAC tunes everything from NA, turbocharged and supercharged engines including VF-Engineering supercharer kit for BMW engines.

If anything GIAC has a lot more experience in tuning engines than Vishnu and BMS combined! EASILY!

I don't know but to me claims that the N54 ECU tuners are incompetent, are very much ignorant themselves and if I were you I would refrain from making such claims in the future!

It seems to be extremely easy to throw mud at the competition. It definitely seems that this is the adopted tactic in the piggy tuners here.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Wait wait... Are you claiming that Vishnu has actually seen the code behind the ECU flashes for N54? You must have, considering how confident you are that ECU tuners only change a the tables that BMW programmed.

How about Dinan flash having the ability to change the coolant pump duty cycle depending on engine conditions? Where is procede's support for this feature which seems to be very important considering that BMW themselves focus quite a bit on engine cooling with the PPK and the 335is and the upcoming M version of the 1 series.

Or perhaps you have enough information to claim that GIAC team do not possess enough knowledge to create a proper ECU reflash? Based on what? Any source code of their work that you have personally seen that you can share with us? No, right? I guess it is extremely easy to ignore the number of platforms GIAC has tuned in the past and how many competitions their cars are winning. ...or how about the fact that GIAC tunes everything from NA, turbocharged and supercharged engines including VF-Engineering supercharer kit for BMW engines.

If anything GIAC has a lot more experience in tuning engines than Vishnu and BMS combined! EASILY!

I don't know but to me claims that the N54 ECU tuners are incompetent, are very much ignorant themselves and if I were you I would refrain from making such claims in the future!

It seems to be extremely easy to throw mud at the competition. It definitely seems that this is the adopted tactic in the piggy tuners here.

Please don't derail this thread. Perhaps you can start another thread so this one can remain on topic.

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by Clap135

BTW like stated on n54 tech before they banned me due to me taking away jb3 customers.

Take a hard shift at redline for example. TONS of jb3 users bog, this bog is caused by more then just the boost being overshot and the dme closing the throttle. This is caused by pure and utter KNOCK that is felt with the bog in acceleration. You know why the procede gets rid of it? Because it drops timing in MT cars by 3-4 degrees during the shift. There not adapting to that, you know why? Because the load you hit on a hard 2-3 or 3-4 shift happens so quick that dme cant catch up untill its too late and knock has already taken place. You offset the teeth and you avoid this to begin with.

Just another reason why cps/timing is important.
I suggest you stick with selling parts, you seem to be a much better salesman.

case in point: staying under the umbrella -- try the low speed ping test, and see if the DME doesnt protest til its happy again. and this is with almost no boost, and very little rpm. the recovery isnt instant ... so what happens at higher boost and rpms? viola !!

[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Please don't derail this thread. Perhaps you can start another thread so this one can remain on topic.

Shiv,

I am not trying to derail this thread, but Adrian has to stop posting stuff about ECU reflashes without proof. If a new forum member is reading all this, then they will determine that procede is the best thing since sliced bread!

Besides, there was a good question there which I think is valid for this thread: where is procede's feature for modifying the coolant pump duty cycle under extreme heat conditions? I thought since Procede has this fantastic ability to use the CAN bus, this should not be a problem, right?

Wouldn't you think that reduced engine heat will also reduce the tendency for the engine to knock?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Shiv,

I am not trying to derail this thread, but Adrian has to stop posting stuff about ECU reflashes without proof. If a new forum member is reading all this, then they will determine that procede is the best thing since sliced bread!

Besides, there was a good question there which I think is valid for this thread: where is procede's feature for modifying the coolant pump duty cycle under extreme heat conditions? I thought since Procede has this fantastic ability to use the CAN bus, this should not be a problem, right?

Wouldn't you think that reduced engine heat will also reduce the tendency for the engine to knock?

Adrian's post was spot on. The reflashers have not been able to add any useful features to their flashes other than boost target setpoint switching via external trigger module (flash "loader").

No realistic methanol mapping features. No ability to autotune. No ability to adapt automatically to different wastegate springs. No active lean-run protection. No smart window switch output for nitrous activation. It wasn't even until last year until anyone was able to rescale the load mapping to allow for more than 1 bar of boost. And driving the water pump harder? If you log the water pump speed of the stock tune, you'll see it at max at moderate to high load anyway. So please let's stick to facts instead of marketing claims. You're posts are becoming increasingly confrontational which I think is unnecessary given our reponses.

If you'd like to continue this discussion, please start another thread as this is pertaining to engine failure and basic knock control logic.

Shiv

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

And there is one other issue: the output signal quality. The piggybacks take the sensor signals (many are linear signals) and output altered signals. The altered signals are not truly linear like the inputs, they are made from digital signals via a digital-to-analog conversion process. Many times, instead of the infinite range of values that an input sensor can give to the ECU, the output signal generated by the piggyback can only have 256 to 1024 separate values in the same range (most of the microcontrollers have 8 to 10-bit DACs or PWMs). So you really lose on signal resolution.

Two matters to consider.

First, both the PROcede and JB3 use 10 bit A/D. That is essentially an error of 0.1%. What you may not be aware of is that these low cost sensors used on vehicles, and they are low cost compared to Industrial or Laboratory grade sensors which normally run 10x - 100x as much for a reason, have an decent resolution of near 0.1%. However, the output linearity may only be 0.5% at best, normally closer to 1%, and the repeatability may be equal. To determine accuracy the sum of all components must be calculate and you will find that most OEM sensors accuracy are well over 1% if not 2% of full scale. Point being, the 0.1% resolution on the A/D has a minimal impact. And no, OEM ECU/DME A/D is 12 Bit at best; 10 bit most likely as there is no reason due to the limitations of the sensors.

And yes, the JB3 does rely on using a PWM output to replicate an analog signal. But since the DME is using RMS, which further limits the true at-the-moment accuracy, it is a moot point. The PROcede uses a 10 Bit D/A.

[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Adrian's post was spot on. The reflashers have not been able to add any useful features to their flashes other than boost target setpoint switching via external trigger module (flash "loader").

No realistic methanol mapping features. No ability to autotune. No ability to adapt automatically to different wastegate springs. No active lean-run protection. No smart window switch output for nitrous activation. It wasn't even until last year until anyone was able to rescale the load mapping to allow for more than 1 bar of boost. And driving the water pump harder? If you log the water pump speed of the stock tune, you'll see it at max at moderate to high load anyway. So please let's stick to facts instead of marketing claims. You're posts are becoming increasingly confrontational which I think is unnecessary given our reponses.

If you'd like to continue this discussion, please start another thread as this is pertaining to engine failure and basic knock control logic.

Shiv

Shiv, one final question and I will "admit defeat": What is your source? Can't make claims without source!

[vasillalov]

Ooh, and one more thing: if Vishnu is so knowledgeable of the inner workings of the N54 engine, why don't you guys release a standalone engine management?

I'll gladly drop $3000 for a quality standalone unit instead of this autotuning godsend "miracle"