[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by michael1284

i just don't understand how something can still be beta when it's completely open to the public lol

How about the alpha testers for Procede maps? People actually volunteer for that!

[ZTUNER]

Originally Posted by SennaZ

This would be a good explanation if if was 1980 but most manufacturers have taken knock detection circuitry well beyond this. Most use multiple frequencies, multi-stage filtering, FFT and other sophisticated algorithms to analyze knock. What Mike has been calling 'pre-knock' they would probably term 'light knock' which has it's own set of amplitude parameters and is definitely not harmful to the engine. Honestly, don't know what BMW does, but it's likely they have kept up with modern technology.

i think you are missing the point i was making. The filtering and the algorithms you mention are in the DME not in the knock sensor. Looking at some of the posts it would appear that the knock sensor is "tuned" for stock boost or something when in reality it just a rugged microphone pickup. All the tuning and filtering is done in the DME. i was simply trying to make that clear.

Harry

[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by ZTUNER

i think you are missing the point i was making. The filtering and the algorithms you mention are in the DME not in the knock sensor. Looking at some of the posts it would appear that the knock sensor is "tuned" for stock boost or something when in reality it just a rugged microphone pickup. All the tuning and filtering is done in the DME. i was simply trying to make that clear.

Harry

BINGO!

[M3 Eater]

Traction control on?? Also boost is kinda high... around 12 ish. Is this an IS?

Sorry... Didn't see all 38 pages of this thread. I'll take a few days and read it.

[MidwestGolfBum]

Originally Posted by michael1284

i just don't understand how something can still be beta when it's completely open to the public lol

Google does it all the time, that way, as others have said, when something doesn't work they can simply say "It is still in Beta, so that kink will have to get worked out before we release the full product." In fact, their mail was in Beta until mid 2010 though it was a widely used product and most people didn't know these things.

[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by ecjohnston

Google does it all the time, that way, as others have said, when something doesn't work they can simply say "It is still in Beta, so that kink will have to get worked out before we release the full product." In fact, their mail was in Beta until mid 2010 though it was a widely used product and most people didn't know these things.

Yeah, we all know how google works. The difference here is that google beta software is not managing your expensive engine.

Lets keep this on topic, shall we?!

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

Almost no one here has had to buy a new engine. I posted a link to pics of damage on cylinder #5 on an n54 motor that was smoking and getting progressively worse. Not a JB car.

Someone mentioned overclocking. Even done correctly, overclocking will shorten the life of the computer. If you're really worried about a new engine. Leave it stock.

Since you guys are so into metaphors and analogies, how about this? Remember Geraldo and Al Capone's vaults???

Excellent analogy. You could attribute safety and proper tuning on an engine to a CPU with appropriate cooling for the speeds it is overclocked to. Load the hell out of the CPU, you need to make sure it's sufficiently cooled, similar concept on an engine.

I consider the N54 to the original Celeron 300 CPUs which could be overclocked to 500MHz without a hitch (for the older tech geeks)

[StayRight]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

I love the amount of people posting in here and even claim they know nothing about cars, or what knock is, or how it works, and then they still second guess...

Really?

Really?

Try Google if you dont understand how engines work or what knock is for starters.

Aren't you now selling the JB4 and other Burger products (as well as the procede)?

topgearsolutions?
Google FTW

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by AlterZgo

My 2 cents... As people have already pointed out, there are many here who just refuse to learn and understand basic tuning principles.

I think the problem is, many of the younger posters on this forum grew up reading about overclocking and hacking computers and cell phones and iPods and whatnot. Difference is, you overclock a computer and until it starts freezing and all you have to do is back off the speed a bit and no harm no foul. You jailbreak your iPhone and if it gets a screwed up, you can always flash back to stock ROM and you're OK.

However, if you run a car - ANY car - with excessive amts of boost, timing, excessive lean A/F ratios, you can instantly grenade your motor to the tune of a $10K+ repair. This isn't something you can recover from by just turning the boost down to stock or running a less aggressive map. Once your motor is fried, that's it.

So, with this amt of risk involved, why would anyone still prefer to use a tune that solely relies on the stock engine's computer to control timing and boost at over 2x stock boost levels when they can purchase a tune that provides the proper timing and boost controls for just a small amount more?

Those who believe BMW engineers know everything about N54 motors and provide the perfect strategies for managing detonation in the stock DME, do you really believe BMW engineered these motors to run 16+ psi for sustained periods of time with the stock maps? Hell no! Look at how conservative they are with the 335is. They add extra oil coolers and they only allow overboost under pre-set conditions for 7 seconds and if it's too warm, it won't allow overboost and the timing is definitely reduced compared to a stock N54. All that for just 7 seconds of 14 psi overboost.

So, if you really think BMW engineers are so sharp (and they are), why the fuck would you want to run 16+ PSI sustained with the stock timing maps and rely solely on the stock DME to pull timing?

thanks,

i didnt want to add to this frenzy anymore than necessary -- but this point is another people overlook -- the CTS will signal the DME the car is running either cool or hot and make adjustments accordingly. would you really want to advance timing on a hot engine, or retard it to allow the motor to cool?

with boost controls that push past the basic logic functions of the design is asking for more than problems.

everyone is interested in WHAT effect detonation has on the electronic response of the DME - right? then i would suggest you get your car to knock in an "off boost" scenario -- one which will not risk damage to the engine.

if you bog the car from a standstill, you should hear it ping -- the SES light will come on and the car will pull timing for a short period of time -- until the DME and related sensors cycle the fault.. the car will seem to fall on its face for a few minutes of driving, and then restore normal operation.

now add this type of condition to high speed/load situations -- and you will see how the DME reacts. now if you have a system that doesnt look at this type of reaction, or has a tendency to push past the intended threshold limiits (even monetarily) can cause unchecked combustion chamber activity.

[atlharry]

Originally Posted by StayRight

Aren't you now selling the JB4 and other Burger products (as well as the procede)?

topgearsolutions?
Google FTW

I can't wait to hear about the follow up support!

"I bought a JB4 and have problems..."
"Get a Procede"

[atlharry]

Originally Posted by maxnix

What in the hell is "per-knock" other than proper combustion?

Terry clarified this in the other forum.

It's "light" knock.

[Bagelfast]

Originally Posted by AlterZgo

Answered multiple times in this thread with the smoking and eating McDonalds every day analogies. Just because YOUR car hasn't blown up yet doesn't mean it's wise to continue running high boost with the stock DME timing retard strategies.

You can smoke cigars every day and live to the ripe old age of 96 like George Burns... or you can die at 45.

Question is, if you can add a huge safety margin by purchasing a tune that costs $160 more to protect your $10K motor, why wouldn't you? Aside from the $10K+ cost to replace an engine, you'd also have to factor in down time, renting a car for a few weeks if not longer, etc.

But, this is really beside the point. If one reads anything about engine tuning, they would understand why it's critical to avoid detonation as much as possible... even running stock boost levels let alone double. It's like saying I always carry my Sig Sauer with a round chambered and safety off and it's never accidentally discharged for the 5 years I've left it in the glove box of my car. So, it must be 100% safe to do so, right?

Then there's the whole principle thing... As a relatively new member on this forum, I find it fascinating how a lot of new members who know nothing of how these "tuner wars" started jump on Shiv for being a dick when the truth of the matter is, Shiv has been remarkably civil about the whole situation.

But, then again, I also pay for my downloaded music and I think inferior, knock off products are pretty lame. So WTF do I know?

Thing is, some members are making it sound like engines are blowing up left and right, and engines SHOULD be blowing up, yet there NOT.

My pervious personal car as i mentioned, i ran the JB3 on Map7, a map that was NOT recommened for my car for a long time! in heat, in cold, etc. Car still runs great. And there are tons of people out there with the same story.

Those analogies arent exactly a good idea of what seems some members believe is happening. With engines esp when speaking of knocking/detonation, if it start to happen and happens bad, its game over for the engine. If alot of knocking is occuring and the engine begins to detonate here and there, damage is being done, and wont be long before it goes boom. Once detonation begins as little as it may be, there is damage that cant be undone, and that will show its signs. I dont see how engines are knocking and creating detonation, and people are still boosting 15psi, getting good MPG, with smooth runing engines etc. if im reading this right.

[themyst]

#1 I don't see how mpg has anything to do with this discussion. #2 you clearly don't datalog and #3 people are boosting 19 psi, myself included. We just don't do it on pump gas.

[Litos]

i'm still waiting for someone to tell us "how exactly 100% someone can determine if those dips are knock".

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Litos

i'm still waiting for someone to tell us "how exactly 100% someone can determine if those dips are knock".

Why else would timing drop out? It's common sense really, and I'm surprised this thread escalated as far as it did. Timing drops, it's knock, timing doesn't drop, car is happy. This isn't fucking rocket science.

[Litos]

where is the 100% factual evidence that when timing drops on a N54, it means it's knock.

i'm on no ones side here, as you can clearly tell from all of my posts in this thread - i'm new to N54 and trying to get all my ducks in a row.

hey guys, love the show - i'll hang up and listen now.

[Litos]

p.s.
i'm not a JB4 fanboi because i had my JB4 for 3 days before the ignition coil went down like a fucking euro league soccer player.

i'll be going back to JB4 tomorrow afternoon now that i have my car back.

aside from the poorly designed parts on the N54 that go out or malfunction under stock conditions, you will not find very many reports of JB3/JB4 powered cars melting onto the pavement.

that being said, i'll stick with the JB4 until i'm proven otherwise, and JB3's/JB4's will continue to sell by the bazillions.

again, i'm not chosing sides, but i'm going to run the tune that i bought until i clearly see evidence that the tune is 100% complete shit.

...........on Map 1 of course

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Litos

where is the 100% factual evidence that when timing drops on a N54, it means it's knock.

i'm on no ones side here, as you can clearly tell from all of my posts in this thread - i'm new to N54 and trying to get all my ducks in a row.

hey guys, love the show - i'll hang up and listen now.

Go do a search for Cobb AP logs, do you see how low the ignition is and how the curve is so much different from a stock ignition log or even a JB log? Do you notice no ignition dropouts? That is a happy engine; it does not overadvance ignition and the knock sensor is not engaging in corrective gymnastics. Go search for a Procede datalog on pump gas, similar story although with a different looking curve.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by AlterZgo

My 2 cents... As people have already pointed out, there are many here who just refuse to learn and understand basic tuning principles.

I think the problem is, many of the younger posters on this forum grew up reading about overclocking and hacking computers and cell phones and iPods and whatnot. Difference is, you overclock a computer and until it starts freezing and all you have to do is back off the speed a bit and no harm no foul. You jailbreak your iPhone and if it gets a screwed up, you can always flash back to stock ROM and you're OK.

However, if you run a car - ANY car - with excessive amts of boost, timing, excessive lean A/F ratios, you can instantly grenade your motor to the tune of a $10K+ repair. This isn't something you can recover from by just turning the boost down to stock or running a less aggressive map. Once your motor is fried, that's it.

So, with this amt of risk involved, why would anyone still prefer to use a tune that solely relies on the stock engine's computer to control timing and boost at over 2x stock boost levels when they can purchase a tune that provides the proper timing and boost controls for just a small amount more?

Those who believe BMW engineers know everything about N54 motors and provide the perfect strategies for managing detonation in the stock DME, do you really believe BMW engineered these motors to run 16+ psi for sustained periods of time with the stock maps? Hell no! Look at how conservative they are with the 335is. They add extra oil coolers and they only allow overboost under pre-set conditions for 7 seconds and if it's too warm, it won't allow overboost and the timing is definitely reduced compared to a stock N54. All that for just 7 seconds of 14 psi overboost.

So, if you really think BMW engineers are so sharp (and they are), why the fuck would you want to run 16+ PSI sustained with the stock timing maps and rely solely on the stock DME to pull timing?

Good Post

Originally Posted by Sniz

take your common sense elsewhere

its not welcome here where JB tunes are being worshipped.

Good Post

Originally Posted by 1LUMI335

Just playing devils advocate, can you explain, taken my last post in this thread into consideration aswell, why i ran Map7, an overly agressive map on pump 93 octane for 3 years on a otherwise stock car, and nothing happened to my motor, and its still runing on the same tune till this day, healthy and strong. Just interesting, since we have people giving explanation, but there explanantions seem to give an idea that the motors should explode or break, which hasnt been the case.

Question still remains, why gamble? How do you know how healthy your motor is?

Did you do a tear down? Compression test? Leak down test? Before and After?

How do your piston rings look?

How is the integrity of your engine rods?

Bearings?

You dont know, thats the point, why try and reinvent the wheel when for years people have been tuning cars successfully the right way.

Cause you jumped on the bandwagon?
Marketing?
Price Sensitivity?
Brand Loyalty?
Grudges?

This community amazes me in their purchase deciscions, when in reality, car modifications, and really TUNING, should be top priority for your engine.

Whether it be a professional pro tune, or just the software at hand, you choose the best, regardless of price and every other illogical reasoning people keep using on this forum.

People ask me all the time, and not about this car, but other cars, Evo's STi', whatever, "where should I get my car tuned".

Why do you think they ask me? Cause they want the cheapest guy? The worst tuner in the area?

OR the best for their car? The most power? SAFELY?

On my last car I could have easily picked a mickey mouse tune to run my car, maybe saved $400-$600.

I can tell you what would end up happening; I would have ended up just selling it, probably for a 80% loss, and picking up the right tune.

So instead of being out $1100 for the right tune, I would have been out $1500? + the cost of any damages along the way? Time wasted?

/rant (nothing personal)


***

On a side note to others this whole proof thing has been abused, and its quite childish.

Basic Engine Tuning Theory still applies here...

Ignition
Fuel
Boost

Can you control them?

[atlharry]

Originally Posted by Litos

where is the 100% factual evidence that when timing drops on a N54, it means it's knock.

i'm on no ones side here, as you can clearly tell from all of my posts in this thread - i'm new to N54 and trying to get all my ducks in a row.

hey guys, love the show - i'll hang up and listen now.

Name the other reasons why the DME drops timing in the middle of a WOT run.

[Litos]

Originally Posted by themyst

Go do a search for Cobb AP logs, do you see how low the ignition is and how the curve is so much different from a stock ignition log or even a JB log? Do you notice no ignition dropouts? That is a happy engine; it does not overadvance ignition and the knock sensor is not engaging in corrective gymnastics. Go search for a Procede datalog on pump gas, similar story although with a different looking curve.

so from 2007 when the TT N54 was released, all of these JB3/JB4/Procede cars have been unhappy !??!

Cobb has been out for a month or so. for the last 4 years tens of thousands of people all over the world have been running JB3/JB4/Procedes on their cars !?!?

too little too late or is that just proving that the design of the engine can handle knock all over the place - as it does even in stock conditions !?!?

[Litos]

Originally Posted by atlharry

Name the other reasons why the DME drops timing in the middle of a WOT run.

i don't know my friend i'm not as advanced in this tuning stuff as i need to be, BUT, i have pretty much read the first 177 posts and been involved in the last 150 or so - i'm asking the questions that need to be answered based on the actual argument in this thread.

as of this post, no one knowledgable enough can actually tell us that the dip in timing is 100% knock.