[enrita]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

Do you receive tuner codes or other error codes ?

nope, tuner codes gets automatically deleted by CANClear.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

And some how it will cost a lot less from Terry.

It's no secret the procede box is $60 in parts (just look them up on digikey) and the new PRO board is similar in that regard. The money is in the intellectual property, development costs, and how much profit each team demands for their time. I know on the BMS side their customers will be impressed with the pricing and performance as always.

Mike

[Move.Over]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

It's no secret the procede box is $60 in parts (just look them up on digikey) and the new PRO board is similar in that regard. The money is in the intellectual property, development costs, and how much profit each team demands for their time. I know on the BMS side their customers will be impressed with the pricing and performance as always.

Mike

Terry, it is a lot easier to reverse engineer and get your technical info from this thread like the good old days then to develop your own. Shiv has people like Adrian doing the original work and I bet he doesn't work for free.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

You're not talking about pre-adaption conditions because your "tune" fails that test miserably. And the truth this, it is pre-adaption performance that is what is imporant to long term engine health/wear/tear. Because this is no such is "post-adaption". ie, the DME is always adapting to conditions.

Have you EVER admitted to your customers why the jb3 needs a few days of "adaption" to drive smoothly?

Answer: It's because it is knocking terribly until the DME throws all the safety measures it can at the problem (which it interprets as a low octane fuel condition). And after that, it knocks regularly as it constantly attempts to slide its way up to the normal low det timing advance map. The funny part of it is that is FACT. Yet it is something you two (Terry/Mike) will never admit.

Shiv

The timing adaption happens extremely quickly and the PROcede is also subject to it. If there is any serious knock an ignition glow code will be recorded and they are rarely seen. But have been observed on both systems if there is some real problem like someone pumps 87 octane by mistake. Your entire tuning system now is based off this adaption listening for knock and reacting to it slowly. With the JB3 G3 the primary adaption needed is boost control during partial throttle as the G3 isn't aware of the exact ECU boost target so the ECU has to learn the duty cycle for each throttle position and RPM as they drive. With the G4 and PRO that is all completely different and now with the ability to monitor knock either can avoid any major adaption timing pull all together as well.

But this brings me to your consistent hypocrisy and why people should take anything you have to say regarding your competitors with a large dose of salt. When a JB3 customer breaks down running 19psi on a customer tuned map with safety resistors removed on a 150ml/min of meth min setting + pump gas (e.g. a small fraction of what it would need octane wise) it's some huge conspiracy theory and the JB3s fault. But when maxboost blew up his motor running what was supposed to be a 15psi street map with the procede it was definitely a user error issue even though he said otherwise. According to his recent posts on another forum we learned he broke down twice. When a JB3 customer posts a dyno showing waviness it's definitely knock (even if it's clearly boost oscillation to even your most devoted followers) yet when a procede customer posts a dyno showing similar waviness and very lean air/fuel ratios it's "adaption" and dyno operator error. It reminds me of when users reported huge sustained 20+psi overboost with your V2 system. Like Mr.5, Down4IT, and many others. Did you issue a warning to your customers or take systems back? Absolutely not. Instead you ridiculed them for misusing the system.

Lets not forget how this thread started and who started it.

Mike

[lyndon_h]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

Did you notice how they don't comment anything at all about their Air-Fuel ratios ? Strange, isn't it ?

Everyone on this forum has access to a 100 procede logs. Care to point out some troublesome AF logs?

[marconi118]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

It's no secret the procede box is $60 in parts (just look them up on digikey) and the new PRO board is similar in that regard. The money is in the intellectual property, development costs, and how much profit each team demands for their time. I know on the BMS side their customers will be impressed with the pricing and performance as always.

Mike

JB3 V3 is a 10$ pic + 0.5$ transistor and 1$ resistors + some connectors....

[cstavaru]

Originally Posted by enrita

nope, tuner codes gets automatically deleted by CANClear.

Well...it's not fair You get tuner codes, this is the issue with richer AFR by manipulating the O2 sensor.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by enrita

Than there must be something wrong with my AFR since it goes low 10 ....

Is this an external wideband that is measuring AFR? There is no way you are running an AFR of 9.2:1.

[enrita]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

Is this an external wideband that is measuring AFR? There is no way you are running an AFR of 9.2:1.

its the front OEM wideband 02 sensor . Meth was on , dont know if that matters?

[enrita]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

Well...it's not fair You get tuner codes, this is the issue with richer AFR by manipulating the O2 sensor.

well man i have upped turbos and around 450whp its not like i care about tuner codes and warranty...

[ultimateendz]

Originally Posted by enrita

well man i have upped turbos and around 450whp its not like i care about tuner codes and warranty...

...we have basically said we dont care at this point

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The timing adaption happens extremely quickly and the PROcede is also subject to it. If there is any serious knock an ignition glow code will be recorded and they are rarely seen. But have been observed on both systems if there is some real problem like someone pumps 87 octane by mistake. Your entire tuning system now is based off this adaption listening for knock and reacting to it slowly. With the JB3 G3 the primary adaption needed is boost control during partial throttle as the G3 isn't aware of the exact ECU boost target so the ECU has to learn the duty cycle for each throttle position and RPM as they drive. With the G4 and PRO that is all completely different and now with the ability to monitor knock either can avoid any major adaption timing pull all together as well.

But this brings me to your consistent hypocrisy and why people should take anything you have to say regarding your competitors with a large dose of salt. When a JB3 customer breaks down running 19psi on a customer tuned map with safety resistors removed on a 150ml/min of meth min setting + pump gas (e.g. a small fraction of what it would need octane wise) it's some huge conspiracy theory and the JB3s fault. But when maxboost blew up his motor running what was supposed to be a 15psi street map with the procede it was definitely a user error issue even though he said otherwise. According to his recent posts on another forum we learned he broke down twice. When a JB3 customer posts a dyno showing waviness it's definitely knock (even if it's clearly boost oscillation to even your most devoted followers) yet when a procede customer posts a dyno showing similar waviness and very lean air/fuel ratios it's "adaption" and dyno operator error. It reminds me of when users reported huge sustained 20+psi overboost with your V2 system. Like Mr.5, Down4IT, and many others. Did you issue a warning to your customers or take systems back? Absolutely not. Instead you ridiculed them for misusing the system.

Lets not forget how this thread started and who started it.

Mike

I don't know......

You guys can sling mud and point fingers and argue about the past all you want.

BUT in the present moment, JB has inferior boost control and no mechanism for influencing timing advance.

Quite a few members have messaged me about their boost oscialltion issues with JB3 and several of them were quite annoyed (pissed) and indicated to me that you told them they were the only ones experiencing these problems.

I struggled with these same issues through JB3 1.2 and 1.3 and just finally gave up trying to work with Terry to fix what was a fundamental boost contol issue.

Now a year later, I am uncovering how bad my timing must have been.....no thanks to the JB platform, but to the Procede's reader.

As far as I am concerned.....this is just wrong.

That may change soon, but for now - it seems that is the reality.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

Well...it's not fair You get tuner codes, this is the issue with richer AFR by manipulating the O2 sensor.

If your building a car for 450WHP+ with upgraded turbo's, the last thing you care about is a CEL, especially when its automatically cleared.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

If your building a car for 450WHP+ with upgraded turbo's, the last thing you care about is a CEL, especially when its automatically cleared.

And especially if the CEL isn't a CEL but an invisible tuner code instead.

[atlharry]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The money is in the intellectual property.
Mike

...

I mean... seriously? I don't have either tune, but when I read shit like this even I get mad. Know your place. You can come on any forum and hawk your wares (or someone else's), but there are some subjects that should never be touched.

[cstavaru]

Originally Posted by lyndon_h

Everyone on this forum has access to a 100 procede logs. Care to point out some troublesome AF logs?

Some examples below (all with Procede). Basically, right now the piggybacks can't lower the AFR without throwing tuner codes so they choose to run leaner AFRs in order to satisfy the warranty-worried customers, at the expense of safety.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

Some examples below (all with Procede). Basically, right now the piggybacks can't lower the AFR without throwing tuner codes so they choose to run leaner AFRs in order to satisfy the warranty-worried customers, at the expense of safety.

Please stop insisting things that arent true. The afr targets we choose are what we find to be ideal for a direct injection engine. Running targets that are suitable for a non-DI engine is just a waste of fuel. There is no need to overfuel for cylinder temp cooling when the multiple in-cylinder 3000psi fuel injection events do the same job, but better. You seem more focused on defending your tune than being techically honest. If you don't understand the concept of DI, you should probably post less and listen more.

And tuner codes are no longer a concern, btw. Limiting the fuel side of the equation has no benefit or merit.

Shiv

[BrianMN]

^^ Plenty of people with both piggies are able to hit their desired AFR targets while on dynos or logs. Do you want me to post 30 logs showing rock-solid AFR's? How about the dyno's wideband AFR too? No codes. Even with canclear off...no codes. Never had codes with JB3 hitting the desired targets too. It's possible I'm the only lucky one....but that's doubtful.

Originally Posted by cstavaru

Basically, right now the piggybacks can't lower the AFR without throwing tuner codes so they choose to run leaner AFRs in order to satisfy the warranty-worried customers, at the expense of safety.

Do you realize what you just said?

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

^^ Plenty of people with both piggies are able to hit their desired AFR targets while on dynos or logs. Do you want me to post 30 logs showing rock-solid AFR's? How about the dyno's wideband AFR too? No codes. Even with canclear off...no codes. Never had codes with JB3 hitting the desired targets too. It's possible I'm the only lucky one....but that's doubtful.



Do you realize what you just said?

same thing he always says, nothing of value or substance. I vote him as my new most annoying e90post member.

If he was correct, he'd be good to have around. Sadly that is not the case.


My Romanian friend, what AFR would you like to see?

[CT_335i]

+1.

I enjoyed your BMW power kit review, but you are not contributing to this thread at all except to make allegations when you don't have the product.

There are a healthy population of users running both tunes. Sure we have failures, but think of the statistical probability and the number of real reported issues vs. the number of users worldwide running these piggy backs.

Its highly unlikely that the tuners don't know what they are doing. You however, are not skilled in this field of tuning and your statements make me want to find the ignore button.

[ar design]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

Some examples below (all with Procede). Basically, right now the piggybacks can't lower the AFR without throwing tuner codes so they choose to run leaner AFRs in order to satisfy the warranty-worried customers, at the expense of safety.

Weird..... I can run 10:1 all day long.

[cstavaru]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Please stop insisting things that arent true. The afr targets we choose are what we find to be ideal for a direct injection engine. Running targets that are suitable for a non-DI engine is just a waste of fuel. There is no need to overfuel for cylinder temp cooling when the multiple in-cylinder 3000psi fuel injection events do the same job, but better. You seem more focused on defending your tune than being techically honest. If you don't understand the concept of DI, you should probably post less and listen more.

And tuner codes are no longer a concern, btw. Limiting the fuel side of the equation has no benefit or merit.

Shiv

Well, I don't have a tune and you have one. If it was your call, everyone should "stop" when showing pitfalls and weaknesses of your tune while you could be stressing on and on the benefits of a half-baked timing control.

And on topic, does anyone's oil temperature gauge suggest that the N54's "multiple injection events" do a good job at cooling ? Running hot is one of the N54's flaws, and a tune should not aggravate things even further.

I suppose GIAC should stop targeting AFRs of ~11 for their 16psi Stage 2, because it's a waste of fuel and they "don't have experience" with the multiple direct-injected engines from the VAG world ? By the way, the Golf GTI has direct injection since 2005...

I suspect that the current piggybacks run leaner A/F ratios that they should just to avoid tuner codes and potential marketing disasters due to warranty complaints...