[Sniz]

Originally Posted by ar design

Weird..... I can run 10:1 all day long.

why would you want to run 10:1 even w an upgraded turbo?

w DI I would assume you would run a bit leaner than a standard injection motor which will typically target 11.8:1 on a f/i appication. Richer just means a waste of fuel and less power UNLESS there is another benefit.

so are you running 10:1 right now for a reason?

here is my car misfiring causing afr's around 10:1. typically i'm in the mid/high 11's and thats w/ nonDI.

new plags gapped to .022 and misfire is better.

[ar design]

Originally Posted by Sniz

why would you want to run 10:1 even w an upgraded turbo?

w DI I would assume you would run a bit leaner than a standard injection motor which will typically target 11.8:1 on a f/i appication. Richer just means a waste of fuel and less power UNLESS there is another benefit.

so are you running 10:1 right now for a reason?

here is my car misfiring causing afr's around 10:1. typically i'm in the mid/high 11's and thats w/ nonDI.

new plags gapped to .022 and misfire is better.

uhm.... I never said I run 10:1 AFRs. I said I *can*..... And I have in testing. I am targeting around 12:1 right now......

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by ar design

Weird..... I can run 10:1 all day long.

Originally Posted by ar design

uhm.... I never said I run 10:1 AFRs. I said I *can*..... And I have in testing. I am targeting around 12:1 right now......

ok well that makes more sense then

[ar design]

Originally Posted by Sniz

ok well that makes more sense then

14psi never felt so good.....

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by ar design

14psi never felt so good.....

Stop teasing us. Get your single turbo kit to the market! haha

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

Well, I don't have a tune and you have one. If it was your call, everyone should "stop" when showing pitfalls and weaknesses of your tune while you could be stressing on and on the benefits of a half-baked timing control.

And on topic, does anyone's oil temperature gauge suggest that the N54's "multiple injection events" do a good job at cooling ? Running hot is one of the N54's flaws, and a tune should not aggravate things even further.

I suppose GIAC should stop targeting AFRs of ~11 for their 16psi Stage 2, because it's a waste of fuel and they "don't have experience" with the multiple direct-injected engines from the VAG world ? By the way, the Golf GTI has direct injection since 2005...

I suspect that the current piggybacks run leaner A/F ratios that they should just to avoid tuner codes and potential marketing disasters due to warranty complaints...

You still don't understand basic engine theory. Or even the relationship between charge cooling and oil temp. Or even how Direct Injection works and what it does. And you are still spouting misiformation about AFR targetting which makes informative discussion with you impossible in every sense of the word.

shiv

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by ar design

14psi never felt so good.....

so I've heard, cant beat a proper sized turbo on an inline 6.

my 3.2 liter s52 w a gt35r is a freaking hoot to drive. I'm on a stock bottom end as well, limiting boost to around 17psi w the meth. 13psi w pump.

I wont be surprised to see high 120 to maybe 130mph traps on pump/meth on this car.

so yes, keep developing w the SB2 and get it to the market, I want the details!

[shifterboy45]

i just realized something ....

if i had the internet when i started building engines, i would be so jacked up in the head.

in the old days you had trusted engine builders and tuners that you could sit down and talk with (mostly at their shops) and you could evaluate the merits of their opinion based on the work they produced and how RELIABLE it was.

i remember being out shopping for a camshaft and wound up having a two hour sit-down with Ed Mondello -- of Mondello Pistons..

there is so much you can learn if you are willing to listen, and not talk.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

You still don't understand basic engine theory. Or even the relationship between charge cooling and oil temp. Or even how Direct Injection works and what it does. And you are still spouting misiformation about AFR targetting which makes informative discussion with you impossible in every sense of the word.

shiv

+87698755875444536536

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by shifterboy45

i just realized something ....

if i had the internet when i started building engines, i would be so jacked up in the head.

in the old days you had trusted engine builders and tuners that you could sit down and talk with (mostly at their shops) and you could evaluate the merits of their opinion based on the work they produced and how RELIABLE it was.

i remember being out shopping for a camshaft and wound up having a two hour sit-down with Ed Mondello -- of Mondello Pistons..

there is so much you can learn if you are willing to listen, and not talk.

I think whats even better is the keyboard racers in here, with A) no tunes under there beltB) no experience with tuning of any other vehicles in the past or present and C) go around trolling/marketing other tunes cause they have these "theories" on how they work and more erroneous theories about how other tunes dont work

I want to take a loot at the commission statements.

[enrita]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

Well, I don't have a tune and you have one. If it was your call, everyone should "stop" when showing pitfalls and weaknesses of your tune while you could be stressing on and on the benefits of a half-baked timing control.

And on topic, does anyone's oil temperature gauge suggest that the N54's "multiple injection events" do a good job at cooling ? Running hot is one of the N54's flaws, and a tune should not aggravate things even further.

I suppose GIAC should stop targeting AFRs of ~11 for their 16psi Stage 2, because it's a waste of fuel and they "don't have experience" with the multiple direct-injected engines from the VAG world ? By the way, the Golf GTI has direct injection since 2005...

I suspect that the current piggybacks run leaner A/F ratios that they should just to avoid tuner codes and potential marketing disasters due to warranty complaints...

you have now exposed your "theory" a couple of times now in the same thread. Data has been shown and explained but you keep blindly disregarding it and hitting your head against the wall. Its clear you either cant read and rethink your thoughts or you just dont want to understand .
You also clearly show a total lack of understanding in how a piggy back work .
Since you are not bringing anything constructing to this thread it would be best if you refrain posting the same nonsense over and over again...

[Glowin]

Originally Posted by enrita

you have now exposed your "theory" a couple of times now in the same thread. Data has been shown and explained but you keep blindly disregarding it and hitting your head against the wall. Its clear you either cant read and rethink your thoughts or you just dont want to understand .
You also clearly show a total lack of understanding in how a piggy back work .
Since you are not bringing anything constructing to this thread it would be best if you refrain posting the same nonsense over and over again...

And he doesn't even have anything non-OEM on his car... I don't think having bought all the BMW Performance stuff qualifies you to give all this opinion on piggyback tunes and engine theory! Stick to your dealer's accessory department, buddy!

[enrita]

adding a nice picture since there are none in this thread. Pretty pertinent to the subject though:

[Clap135]

Im surprised that sucker didn't sieze in there. God that looks awful

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

I think whats even better is the keyboard racers in here, with A) no tunes under there beltB) no experience with tuning of any other vehicles in the past or present and C) go around trolling/marketing other tunes cause they have these "theories" on how they work and more erroneous theories about how other tunes dont work

I want to take a loot at the commission statements.

that is a big, and unnecessary distraction.

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by Clap135

lol WHAT?

First of all a valve is inside the cylinder head.
2nd, that is a picture of a piston(which is in the block), which could kiss a valve (which is in the head), but it didnt based on that picture. The piston rings simply fried. If that piston slapped the valves, the timing on the motor either jumped or the rod stretched.

actually the ring did its job --

if you note the beveled ridge at the bottom of the piston crown, its beveled by heat -- extreme heat. the first ringland gave way to the forces of detonation (expansion under the ring) ... the land broke off .... this is what happens when combustion doesnt occur properly with forced induction.

the air fuel charge is pre-compressed (f/i) even before the actually compression stroke takes place. the top two rings are the compression rings which help seal off the cylinder when combustion occurs. this means that top of the piston crown must establish the playing field for the air/fuel mix burn, but its the job of the two upper rings and the land to close the gaps and support the push.

the crown is thicker and tougher than the land area due to machining (taking some of overall ridgity away) and an disruption in the cylinder will take its toll at the point of peak pressure. ringland time!

from that pic you can see that it didnt take long to batter that land right off...

beware of unchecked combustion -- it will cause damage

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by shifterboy45

actually the ring did its job --

if you note the beveled ridge at the bottom of the piston crown, its beveled by heat -- extreme heat. the first ringland gave way to the forces of detonation (expansion under the ring) ... the land broke off .... this is what happens when combustion doesnt occur properly with forced induction.

the air fuel charge is pre-compressed (f/i) even before the actually compression stroke takes place. the top two rings are the compression rings which help seal off the cylinder when combustion occurs. this means that top of the piston crown must establish the playing field for the air/fuel mix burn, but its the job of the two upper rings and the land to close the gaps and support the push.

the crown is thicker and tougher than the land area due to machining (taking some of overall ridgity away) and an disruption in the cylinder will take its toll at the point of peak pressure. ringland time!

from that pic you can see that it didnt take long to batter that land right off...

beware of unchecked combustion -- it will cause damage

Ok? Are you saying I didnt agree? lol Im a little confused cause it seems like you made this post to correct something I said.

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by enrita

adding a nice picture since there are none in this thread. Pretty pertinent to the subject though:

coming from the motocross world and blowing up/grenading/seizing quite a few engines each year, that piston doesn't look all that bad. I was expecting the whole side of it to be nonexistent.

Enrita: So when this happened, was the engine COMPLETELY inoperable or did the engine just come to a stop and knew something was wrong? Did it lock up? Obviously you wouldn't drive with it like that, but would the engine 'run'?

[adrian@vishnu]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

It's no secret the procede box is $60 in parts (just look them up on digikey) and the new PRO board is similar in that regard. The money is in the intellectual property, development costs, and how much profit each team demands for their time. I know on the BMS side their customers will be impressed with the pricing and performance as always.

Mike

Actually this is not true and is just a way for BMS to accuse Vishnu of excessive profit.

For a start, the cost of just parts is higher than alluded to here (take the digikey challenge yourself!!). Then there is the cost of the PCB itself which is a custom designed 6 layer PCB. Then there is the cost of the connectors, and the cost of the alluminium extrusion and stamped end plates. Finally, before now BMS used through-hole circuit boards, and I believe they soldered them togeather themselves, and probably did not include the cost of the time for whoever did this for them (maybe it is a trained monkey that charges nothing except food??). However the Procede and I believe the "new" PROJuice use surface mount technology. Although it is possible to hand solder this technology, unless you get free labour and low volume, it does not make economical sense, so you need to get them made properly on a special "pick'n'place" machine. This has an associated cost. Rest assure that the final cost of a completed unit is well over double what is quoted here.... and that does not include the harness which costs even more.

Terry started off in this market by making claims that can be seen in the 2007 thread quoted here that these products should sell for the cost of the parts. He had little regard for the effort required to design them. Since that time he has changed his attitude, since he is now making profit in the same market. He wants to make out that he is the good guy because he charges less. The JB3 costs alot less than the Procede Rev 2. Just look at the two to see why. He will of course try to convince you it does the same things, but that has been exposed as lies many times. On top of that, their development costs are significantly lower than Procede because they just copy what the Procede does rather than spending the time and effort to work out new features. We have spent many months of development on things that ultimately were never released because we could not achieve what we wanted, and we have spent considerably more time on developing the new features than our copycat competitors that just look at what we have done and do it in a fraction of the time.

IMHO, at the price the Procede has dropped to, it is a bargain. To look at it as the sum of the parts is ignorance of the true manufacturing costs and ignorance of the effort of many skilled engineers who have put tens of man years of effort into it.

Adrian

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Ok? Are you saying I didnt agree? lol Im a little confused cause it seems like you made this post to correct something I said.

no i wasnt trying to correct you... i just thought u put everything in a nutshell..

i just cracked it open ...

[MisterSkiMask]

The conversation here has degraded beyond belief. Accusations about who is making too much money based on the cost of parts. Pathetic, somebody should take the high road here, and you should both take a good look in the mirror.

Both piggy camps are looking like a-holes, just let your products do your talking.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

Both piggy camps are looking like a-holes, just let your products do your talking.

Sounds great. How about everyone being educated enough to do the listening? Because letting products speak for themselves have creates a division between the informed and uninformed As this thread (and others) have so perfectly illustrated.