[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by RM7

Yeah, it's not 1985 anymore when there was a gap bigger than the Atlantic Ocean as far as quality and technical engineering know-how. The bias is still around, but the giant gap isn't. GM went from a joke as far making performance cars that turn and handle a track to setting the bar in many cases.

No bigger BMW fan than me, but a 1985 E30 ETA was pretty much a POS. Just being honest. BTW, I owned a 1989 E30 for 18 years from new; that was a great BMW, but the interior manufacturing quality was, well good enough.

[NoGuru]

A friend got on a list for $2K and he thinks he might be around the 300ish area. It's going to be a long wait.

[VisualEcho]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Right, because BMW subframes don't crack on $60K M cars, or front shock towers don't crack on $120K exotic roadsters. Or peeling interiors on $50K 3-series... And let's not mention BMW plastics....

1. No company makes a flawless product.
2. You'd have to be unconscious to really compare BMW quality/engineering to Chevrolet quality/engineering.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

1. No company makes a flawless product.
2. You'd have to be unconscious to really compare BMW quality/engineering to Chevrolet quality/engineering.

I have a GM product in my fleet as we speak. It's no less or more troublesome than my BMWs. I'll just ask, what price do you think BMW would charge for sports coupe on par with a Z8 Z06? BMW offers no model now on its own dedicated chassis; it can't afford to.

[VisualEcho]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I have a GM product in my fleet as we speak. It's no less or more troublesome than my BMWs.

Your "fleet" sample isn't large enough to infer anything.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Right, because BMW subframes don't crack on $60K M cars, or front shock towers don't crack on $120K exotic roadsters. Or peeling interiors on $50K 3-series... And let's not mention BMW plastics...

Lol.

Or Sxx engines where rod bearings are considered maintenance.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I have a GM product in my fleet as we speak. It's no less or more troublesome than my BMWs. I'll just ask, what price do you think BMW would charge for sports coupe on par with a Z8 Z06? BMW offers no model now on its own dedicated chassis; it can't afford to.

There is nothing BMW can offer that will be on par with z06. Especially not a C8 z06 and that's just the beginning of the variants.

They're different platforms so it's foolish to really compare. If you want to talk luxury features, obviously the BMW would suit better. If you want just performance then it depends because again it's 2 different cars.

If BMW made a corvette z06 equivalent, they'd charge 180k+. And it probably won't be able to compete with a corvette anyway. Corvettes are perfect at what they're built for. And BMW M cars are perfect at what they're built for. 2 different cars. 2 different classes.

A corvette z06 would always be faster than an M5 stock or even an M8 aside from a dig but on track and in the 1/4 a corvette z06 will always be faster. Stock C7Z's have been trapping in the low 130s. The fastest stock C7Z was 10.4 @ 134. M8 is 10.7? M5 same thing?

Corvettes aren't even drag cars yet it does that well. I suspect the C8 z06 to run a 10.3-10.4 stock with it's immediate traction. It's rumored to run the ring at 7 minutes flat or even better.

An M8 runs the ring in 7:32 or something. Which is oddly slow for an M car with that much power. A base C8 stingray ran it in 7:29.

I mean i totally get it if you prefer one brand over the next but at least be real in the comparison lol

[Bimmersandmopars]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

There is nothing BMW can offer that will be on par with z06. Especially not a C8 z06 and that's just the beginning of the variants.

They're different platforms so it's foolish to really compare. If you want to talk luxury features, obviously the BMW would suit better. If you want just performance then it depends because again it's 2 different cars.

If BMW made a corvette z06 equivalent, they'd charge 180k+. And it probably won't be able to compete with a corvette anyway. Corvettes are perfect at what they're built for. And BMW M cars are perfect at what they're built for. 2 different cars. 2 different classes.

A corvette z06 would always be faster than an M5 stock or even an M8 aside from a dig but on track and in the 1/4 a corvette z06 will always be faster. Stock C7Z's have been trapping in the low 130s. The fastest stock C7Z was 10.4 @ 134. M8 is 10.7? M5 same thing?

Corvettes aren't even drag cars yet it does that well. I suspect the C8 z06 to run a 10.3-10.4 stock with it's immediate traction. It's rumored to run the ring at 7 minutes flat or even better.

An M8 runs the ring in 7:32 or something. Which is oddly slow for an M car with that much power. A base C8 stingray ran it in 7:29.

I mean i totally get it if you prefer one brand over the next but at least be real in the comparison lol

You're comparing apples to oranges lol...

I'd wager an e30 tuned X3MC would stomp the Z06.... just saying.

I think the whole let's make a high horsepower NA V8 is archaic thinking and frankly a marketing ploy. Sure may work for awhile, but a boosted application with 3/4s the displacement would dominate.

Ask yourself this.... don't you think if BMW truly wanted to make a supercar they could?

BMW aspires to make Super "do everything" cars.... which they've mastered.

The M8GC in itself is a complete rule breaker and flat out historic.

Rememner the last time Chevy made a factory 10sec 4 seater?..... me neither.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by sleepy75

I live at high altitude. Its lack of turbos is precisely why I wouldn't consider this one. Losing way too much HP up here.

You do realize you lose HP with turbos too? It's kind of a myth that car-turbos work like airplane turbos. Airplane turbos are put onto a huge engine that makes say 300hp at sea level with the turbo basically doing nothing and the turbo is used to slowly add boost as it climbs, maintaining 300hp all the way up to some critical altitude, like 14,000 feet, where it's doing it's maximum volumetric efficiency. That's where the turbo is working the hardest. With cars, the turbo is working the hardest at sea-level and is engineered go give max boost at SL, as you go up in altitude, it tapers off due to loss of atmospheric pressure, like NA.

Or in simple terms, it's like the car-turbo is already at 14,000 feet when it's at sea level. They don't design car turbos to deliver constant power as altitude increases.

Now, you could theoretically make a car turbo work like an airplane turbo, but in practice, no one really does that outside of some unique racing applications.

[sleepy75]

Originally Posted by RM7

You do realize you lose HP with turbos too? It's kind of a myth that car-turbos work like airplane turbos. Airplane turbos are put onto a huge engine that makes say 300hp at sea level with the turbo basically doing nothing and the turbo is used to slowly add boost as it climbs, maintaining 300hp all the way up to some critical altitude, like 14,000 feet, where it's doing it's maximum volumetric efficiency. That's where the turbo is working the hardest. With cars, the turbo is working the hardest at sea-level and is engineered go give max boost at SL, as you go up in altitude, it tapers off due to loss of atmospheric pressure, like NA.

Or in simple terms, it's like the car-turbo is already at 14,000 feet when it's at sea level. They don't design car turbos to deliver constant power as altitude increases.

Now, you could theoretically make a car turbo work like an airplane turbo, but in practice, no one really does that outside of some unique racing applications.

Believe me, I completely understand that all IC engines lose HP at altitude. But I am also fully aware that a turbo car suffers much less than NA.

[fiveohwblow]

Originally Posted by sleepy75

Believe me, I completely understand that all IC engines lose HP at altitude. But I am also fully aware that a turbo car suffers much less than NA.

Correct because the ecu targets boost pressures, not horsepower…..

[Refined]

Originally Posted by Bimmersandmopars

You're comparing apples to oranges lol...

I'd wager an e30 tuned X3MC would stomp the Z06.... just saying.

I think the whole let's make a high horsepower NA V8 is archaic thinking and frankly a marketing ploy. Sure may work for awhile, but a boosted application with 3/4s the displacement would dominate.

Ask yourself this.... don't you think if BMW truly wanted to make a supercar they could?

BMW aspires to make Super "do everything" cars.... which they've mastered.

The M8GC in itself is a complete rule breaker and flat out historic.

Rememner the last time Chevy made a factory 10sec 4 seater?..... me neither.

Pulls the "apples to oranges" card then immediately makes a theoretical comparison between a e30 TUNED x3mc and a stock z06.

Further loses credibility when pumping the m8gc. Guess what, nobody is buying your "rule breaker" at that price point. The m8 shares its engine and transmission with other BMW cars and SUV's. What's so special about that? At least the z06 is a purpose built machine without apparent compromise at its likely price point. BMW just repackages the same motors, transmissions, steering wheels, etc etc to maximize profitability and then tries to charge for features standard in a kia.

Look, I'm a BMW fan and I loved my m4, but trying to compare any BMW product to a pure sports car like the z06 is ridiculous. The z06 is looking like the deal of the century right now and we don't know what it costs. GM won't have one to sell off a showroom floor for a couple of years due to the volume of preorders. I can walk in to my local BMW dealer and get a steep discount on the m8 that has been sitting in the showroom for almost a year.

[fiveohwblow]

Gm fans:identified

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by VisualEcho

Your "fleet" sample isn't large enough to infer anything.

And most people are scared to own a BMW past its 50,000-mile warranty. The point about my fleet experience is, the base engineering of GM and BMW vehicles. My assessment is they are pretty much equivalent, especially at the price point of each vehicle. Different of course, but equivalent in effectiveness of operation and fitness for use.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

There is nothing BMW can offer that will be on par with z06. Especially not a C8 z06 and that's just the beginning of the variants.

They're different platforms so it's foolish to really compare. If you want to talk luxury features, obviously the BMW would suit better. If you want just performance then it depends because again it's 2 different cars.

If BMW made a corvette z06 equivalent, they'd charge 180k+. And it probably won't be able to compete with a corvette anyway. Corvettes are perfect at what they're built for. And BMW M cars are perfect at what they're built for. 2 different cars. 2 different classes.

A corvette z06 would always be faster than an M5 stock or even an M8 aside from a dig but on track and in the 1/4 a corvette z06 will always be faster. Stock C7Z's have been trapping in the low 130s. The fastest stock C7Z was 10.4 @ 134. M8 is 10.7? M5 same thing?

Corvettes aren't even drag cars yet it does that well. I suspect the C8 z06 to run a 10.3-10.4 stock with it's immediate traction. It's rumored to run the ring at 7 minutes flat or even better.

An M8 runs the ring in 7:32 or something. Which is oddly slow for an M car with that much power. A base C8 stingray ran it in 7:29.

I mean i totally get it if you prefer one brand over the next but at least be real in the comparison lol

This is precisely my point, if BMW offered a dedicated chassis model (as they have in the past - most recently was the Z8) it would be very expensive and nowhere near the price point of the Corvette.

In every case you cite, a base C7 or C8 beats an M car in performance and at a lower MSRP.

[WilsoN55]

The funny thing for me.. the C8 Corvette is the reason I bought a 135i.

My closest friend sold his old 340 Duster and placed an order for a C8.. he is one of my very few friends who is a true racing fan. We've competed on the track, carts, gone to F1 GP races together, etc. We have a world-class road course nearby and he wants to shred... My F10d despite its endless power is not a track toy (it's a highway bomber) and would be one helluva project to make it somewhat compliant for track use. I can't let him drag me up to the track without a toy, so I went looking for something fun and agile, that I didn't have to unload my other vehicles to justify. Inline-6 turbo, RWD, DCT and Brembos for $13k? I'm going to break his heart when he can't disappear me from his rear view mirror.. that will be $25k well spent.

Yeah, it's one helluva car, but the 135i is hard to beat smiles/mile OR smiles/$

Originally Posted by wasya152

Chevy blew it out of the water with c8 Z06. 670 hp high revving NA motor in that chassis with dual clutch, just wow. I'm so surprised that in today's turbo era, it's a NA motor. The interior looks stepped up too.

Its a future classic right of the bat, especially with hybrid and electric being around the corner

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Bimmersandmopars

You're comparing apples to oranges lol...

I'd wager an e30 tuned X3MC would stomp the Z06.... just saying.

I think the whole let's make a high horsepower NA V8 is archaic thinking and frankly a marketing ploy. Sure may work for awhile, but a boosted application with 3/4s the displacement would dominate.

Ask yourself this.... don't you think if BMW truly wanted to make a supercar they could?

BMW aspires to make Super "do everything" cars.... which they've mastered.

The M8GC in itself is a complete rule breaker and flat out historic.

Rememner the last time Chevy made a factory 10sec 4 seater?..... me neither.

Rule-breaker in same vein as the CTS-V wagon?

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Bimmersandmopars

You're comparing apples to oranges lol...

I'd wager an e30 tuned X3MC would stomp the Z06.... just saying.

I think the whole let's make a high horsepower NA V8 is archaic thinking and frankly a marketing ploy. Sure may work for awhile, but a boosted application with 3/4s the displacement would dominate.

Ask yourself this.... don't you think if BMW truly wanted to make a supercar they could?

BMW aspires to make Super "do everything" cars.... which they've mastered.

The M8GC in itself is a complete rule breaker and flat out historic.

Rememner the last time Chevy made a factory 10sec 4 seater?..... me neither.

A tuned X3M would stomp a z06 in what? A drag race? lol

So tune a z06 or modify that and the tables are reversed again.

You said i'm comparing apples to oranges but then bring a freaking small SUV that's modified to the equation.

I already said they're 2 different cars so it's foolish to compare. Not even sure why anyone would cross shop a C8 Z06, or any generation z06 to an M car. They're different cars for different purposes.

I got an M3 to GO ALONG with my C7Z. It will never, and can never be a replacement for it. Different cars. First off the M3, as gorgeous as it looks will never look as good as a C7 widebody, and doesn't even come close to what GM made with the C8Z. The car looks like a supercar and an M3 is just a 3-series with fender flares essentially.

I didn't even get to the engine part of it. A GM small block would stomp whatever BMW put in their M cars, in both sound and power efficiency.

Do i believe BMW can make a supercar? Of course. Any car maker can. But they have respectful automotive lanes to stay in. BMW knows they can't compete in the market where the corvette falls under. Because they have a different identity. And which is why i said if they did, the car would cost around 180K+ and it would still get beat by corvette.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

This is precisely my point, if BMW offered a dedicated chassis model (as they have in the past - most recently was the Z8) it would be very expensive and nowhere near the price point of the Corvette.

In every case you cite, a base C7 or C8 beats an M car in performance and at a lower MSRP.

Nevermind about just the corvette, if BMW made such a car, it would have to compete with actual real exotics like mclaren, ferrari, lambo, and porsche.

And they'd get rocked by those anyway.

Corvette offers and delivers basically supercar performance and looks, for 1/3 of the price.

You absolutely can not beat what a corvette (especially a z06 and higher variant) offers. That's why people have been buying them.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

A tuned X3M would stomp a z06 in what? A drag race? lol

So tune a z06 or modify that and the tables are reversed again.

You said i'm comparing apples to oranges but then bring a freaking small SUV that's modified to the equation.

I already said they're 2 different cars so it's foolish to compare. Not even sure why anyone would cross shop a C8 Z06, or any generation z06 to an M car. They're different cars for different purposes.

I got an M3 to GO ALONG with my C7Z. It will never, and can never be a replacement for it. Different cars. First off the M3, as gorgeous as it looks will never look as good as a C7 widebody, and doesn't even come close to what GM made with the C8Z. The car looks like a supercar and an M3 is just a 3-series with fender flares essentially.

I didn't even get to the engine part of it. A GM small block would stomp whatever BMW put in their M cars, in both sound and power efficiency.

Do i believe BMW can make a supercar? Of course. Any car maker can. But they have respectful automotive lanes to stay in. BMW knows they can't compete in the market where the corvette falls under. Because they have a different identity. And which is why i said if they did, the car would cost around 180K+ and it would still get beat by corvette.

Well how I ended up with my E86 Z4 Coupe was because of the C7. Mid 2014 when the C7 was introduced I was hardover to buy one. I was just waiting for the prices to come down from the introductory ADM. I found a LT1 with the Z51 package a reasonable price of $45K. The idea for me was the E90 was aging at 250,000+ miles and I wanted to have a second car to use when the E90 was in for DIY repairs. I figured I'd get a new sportscar fresh with zero miles on it.

Well I just couldn't justify driving a V8 175 miles to work on occasion, or for weeks at a time when working on the E90. Weekends I don't drive much, so I didn't need a "weekend" car. Long story short, I pivoted and looked at a Cayman just to get something than a BMW (I've had at least one since 1988). I didn't really like the Cayman, so an epiphany happened and I remembered the E86 Z4 Coupe. Perfect choice, same engine as the E90, same mechanicals as an E46. 2-seat sports car. Plenty of performance for the street I could compare with a C7; obliviously not comparable at maximum performance levels, but anything over how fast I drive the Z4, which the C7 would provide, would get me a reckless driving ticket in Virginia and a ride in a State Police Taurus.

I'd say a fair cross shop between BMW and a Corvette is the E85/86 Z4M Roadster and Coupe.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by fiveohwblow

Correct because the ecu targets boost pressures, not horsepower…..

Ever see a turbo-boost gauge as you climb in altitude?

It does not meet the SL target boost as you climb, it loses about an inch of MP for every 1000'. It only meets that target boost pressure at SL. Do you believe you are holding constant boost pressure as you climb? The ECU doesn't "target" boost pressure like you think. The turbo has a certain volumetric efficiency and can supply max boost under certain conditions, which is SL, RPM (exhaust), etc. When you climb up in altitude, it has no choice but to try and spin faster to try and compress the less dense air...but it doesn't make more pressure past it's maximum volumetric efficiency, it makes less, still boosted and still making pressure of course. They aren't infinite power generators.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Well how I ended up with my E86 Z4 Coupe was because of the C7. Mid 2014 when the C7 was introduced I was hardover to buy one. I was just waiting for the prices to come down from the introductory ADM. I found a LT1 with the Z51 package a reasonable price of $45K. The idea for me was the E90 was aging at 250,000+ miles and I wanted to have a second car to use when the E90 was in for DIY repairs. I figured I'd get a new sportscar fresh with zero miles on it.

Well I just couldn't justify driving a V8 175 miles to work on occasion, or for weeks at a time when working on the E90. Weekends I don't drive much, so I didn't need a "weekend" car. Long story short, I pivoted and looked at a Cayman just to get something than a BMW (I've had at least one since 1988). I didn't really like the Cayman, so an epiphany happened and I remembered the E86 Z4 Coupe. Perfect choice, same engine as the E90, same mechanicals as an E46. 2-seat sports car. Plenty of performance for the street I could compare with a C7; obliviously not comparable at maximum performance levels, but anything over how fast I drive the Z4, which the C7 would provide, would get me a reckless driving ticket in Virginia and a ride in a State Police Taurus.

I'd say a fair cross shop between BMW and a Corvette is the E85/86 Z4M Roadster and Coupe.

I forgot about the Z4M. You're right in a lot of what you said.

However using those same cars, that's probably the only time you could cross shop a corvette with something from BMW. A base C7 stingray. Not a C8 stingray but a C7. Because FE vs FE. A C8 is totally different in driving dynamics, feel and power delivery over a C7. And i own a C7Z. I know how much better the C8 platform is. And i only experienced the C8 stingray, as most would since the C8Z didn't hit the streets yet.

The only issue i have with something of a Z4M is that for 65k? You get a 382hp engine. Which i know is potent but with a corvette, you're ALWAYS getting a V8. There is no 4cyl option like a camaro or a mustang. With a corvette, it's V8 in every single variant. From base model to the top of the line ZR1. And it just gets more powerful and crazier as you go up in the corvette variant lineup.

I know corvettes aren't meant for most and this thread isn't to make people want/love a corvette. You either love them or you don't. But people need to understand they're popular and loved by many for a reason. It's essentially a race car for the street. Loads of power, reliability, fun factor and style.