[JamieA]

Originally Posted by shimshimhada

I thought homosexuality was NOT innate, but in fact a choice. I don't recall reading about any evidence that homosexuality is genetic.

You are who you are today because of the environment in which you grew up in, not because you already had an "innate emotional orientation" from the moment you were born.

You obviously aren't reading enough then. A possible cluster of genes have been identified and a book written on the matter. They just don't know how these genes are expressed yet, and are probably related to changing the female hormone cycles inutero (see below) because if you are gay you are 15% more likely to find other gay people in your maternal family line.

If you will speak to a gay person they will tell you that they knew from their first memory who they were, or discovered who they were during puberty. I grew up in EXACTLY the same environment as my brother, and he is straight, so how does your theory explain that?

You could theoretically make the same choice, and I bet that if you examined this question you would find that you agree that you were heterosexual from birth and couldn't possibly think of a situation that could change that.

There is also clear medical research, now generally accepted, that shows that gender and sexuality depends on 3 crucial hormone cycles inutero. Certain levels of the hormone testosterone are required inutero to masculanise the foetus at each of these stages.

First the foetus starts out female, but an early hormone cycle masculanises the body, but the brain is still left completely female. If you only get to this point you are transgendered, if you skip this point but not the others you are a Lesbian.

Second, another hormone cycle masculinises the general areas of the brain, but not sexuality. Skip some of this if you are male and you get a male (straight or gay) with feminine ways of thinking. Skip all of it and you essentially have a female brain in a man's body and will be likely to grow up wanting a sex reassignment operation.

Third, a final hormone cycle changes sexual attraction from males to females. Skip this and you are a gay man. Have this but not 1 and 2 and you are a lipstick lesbian.

Skip all 3 and you are obviously a woman.

They found this when they started looking at studies of the physical structure of gay vs straight male brains. They were concentrating on 4 interstitial nuclei of the hyperthalmus, which were found to be different in gay males. At first they were looking for a genetic explanation, but changed this view after they discovered a medication given to pregnant mothers in the 60s that years later it was showed produced 100% lesbian daughters. They started digging and their research led to this general finding I have summarised above.

They then went on to show that environmental factors during pregnancy such as stress could also interrupt the mother's hormone cycle producing gay children. Speak to most gay men's mothers and you will hear a tale of stress. Mine certainly was. This is because the stress hormone cortisol is made from the same progenitor as testosterone; perhaps it uses up supplies of this raw material, leaving less to be made into testosterone.

The uninformed "choice" comment leads many gay people to hate themselves, or is the justification for hatred and violence against gay people. If what you said was true then being gay would be a "condition" and could be fixed. Yet over the centuries there has been no process which could demonstate a permenant change to hetrosexuality. In fact Dr Evenlyn Hooker in the 50s nd 60s did research which prooved homosexuality was not a "condition" and had it successfully removed from the US Government's list of psychological disorders.

I certainly didn't choose to be what I am. In fact I was in denial for many years and the string of women I dated and slept with, and the one I nearly married after a happy 4 year relationship didn't alter who I was. Do you seriously think anyone would CHOOSE to be gay and live a life of being discriminated against? Many spend nights praying to God that they could be straight, because their dawning realisation that they are gay is too scary. I know I did.

[ThePorter]

Originally Posted by E90-4life

I know people who are gay and to me they're very much just like anyone else, excluding the obvious. But I will say this... In the beginning it was Adam and EVE, NOT Adam and STEVE.

That may very well be true, but gay parents do not make gay children. Straight ones do. Don't forget it takes too hetero's to make one homo. And I'm 100% sure both my parents are straight too.

[theclay]

Originally Posted by E90-4life

I know people who are gay and to me they're very much just like anyone else, excluding the obvious. But I will say this... In the beginning it was Adam and EVE, NOT Adam and STEVE.

Wasn't Eve just one of Adam's ribs in that story? Thats kind of like having sex with yourself right?

[JamieA]

Adam and Eve are actually plural Hebrew words meaning Men and Women respectively. If not, then we would all be the products of incest.

It reads better to say "God created Men and Women".

Taken from Spong, "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism"

[shimshimhada]

Originally Posted by JamieA

You obviously aren't reading enough then. A possible cluster of genes have been identified and a book written on the matter. They just don't know how these genes are expressed yet, and are probably related to changing the female hormone cycles inutero (see below) because if you are gay you are 15% more likely to find other gay people in your maternal family line.

If you will speak to a gay person they will tell you that they knew from their first memory who they were, or discovered who they were during puberty. I grew up in EXACTLY the same environment as my brother, and he is straight, so how does your theory explain that?

You could theoretically make the same choice, and I bet that if you examined this question you would find that you agree that you were heterosexual from birth and couldn't possibly think of a situation that could change that.

There is also clear medical research, now generally accepted, that shows that gender and sexuality depends on 3 crucial hormone cycles inutero. Certain levels of the hormone testosterone are required inutero to masculanise the foetus at each of these stages.

First the foetus starts out female, but an early hormone cycle masculanises the body, but the brain is still left completely female. If you only get to this point you are transgendered, if you skip this point but not the others you are a Lesbian.

Second, another hormone cycle masculinises the general areas of the brain, but not sexuality. Skip some of this if you are male and you get a male (straight or gay) with feminine ways of thinking. Skip all of it and you essentially have a female brain in a man's body and will be likely to grow up wanting a sex reassignment operation.

Third, a final hormone cycle changes sexual attraction from males to females. Skip this and you are a gay man. Have this but not 1 and 2 and you are a lipstick lesbian.

Skip all 3 and you are obviously a woman.

They found this when they started looking at studies of the physical structure of gay vs straight male brains. They were concentrating on 4 interstitial nuclei of the hyperthalmus, which were found to be different in gay males. At first they were looking for a genetic explanation, but changed this view after they discovered a medication given to pregnant mothers in the 60s that years later it was showed produced 100% lesbian daughters. They started digging and their research led to this general finding I have summarised above.

They then went on to show that environmental factors during pregnancy such as stress could also interrupt the mother's hormone cycle producing gay children. Speak to most gay men's mothers and you will hear a tale of stress. Mine certainly was. This is because the stress hormone cortisol is made from the same progenitor as testosterone; perhaps it uses up supplies of this raw material, leaving less to be made into testosterone.

The uninformed "choice" comment leads many gay people to hate themselves, or is the justification for hatred and violence against gay people. If what you said was true then being gay would be a "condition" and could be fixed. Yet over the centuries there has been no process which could demonstate a permenant change to hetrosexuality. In fact Dr Evenlyn Hooker in the 50s nd 60s did research which prooved homosexuality was not a "condition" and had it successfully removed from the US Government's list of psychological disorders.

I certainly didn't choose to be what I am. In fact I was in denial for many years and the string of women I dated and slept with, and the one I nearly married after a happy 4 year relationship didn't alter who I was. Do you seriously think anyone would CHOOSE to be gay and live a life of being discriminated against? Many spend nights praying to God that they could be straight, because their dawning realisation that they are gay is too scary. I know I did.

I know all about the "gay gene" theory. Imo it should be dismissed as a credible theory. EDIT: I guess it already is?
http://www.mygenes.co.nz/latest.htm

http://www.mygenes.co.nz/latest.htm#Hamer

[shimshimhada]

Originally Posted by theclay

Santorum

This isn't a word in my country.

Look it up

[icedragon]

Originally Posted by shimshimhada

I know all about the "gay gene" theory. Imo it should be dismissed as a credible theory. EDIT: I guess it already is?
http://www.mygenes.co.nz/latest.htm

http://www.mygenes.co.nz/latest.htm#Hamer

Firstly, it takes several experiments to prove a theory. It ALSO take several experiments to disprove a theory. Your link only leads to a summary of one experiment. That is not enough to prove or disprove anything.

Secondly, the link leads to a summary, not an actual journal article. And the summary is filled with plenty of bias. Have you gone through university? Because if I used a link to a biased summary on my paper, I would fail for sure. It's just not up to university standards.

[shimshimhada]

Originally Posted by icedragon

Firstly, it takes several experiments to prove a theory. It ALSO take several experiments to disprove a theory. Your link only leads to a summary of one experiment. That is not enough to prove or disprove anything.

Secondly, the link leads to a summary, not an actual journal article. And the summary is filled with plenty of bias. Have you gone through university? Because if I used a link to a biased summary on my paper, I would fail for sure. It's just not up to university standards.

I'm lazy so I linked a summary, would you like me to waste my time and find the actual journal? I don't see any sources in this whole thread.

Regardless, unless that gene theory is proven, I'm going to stand by the one I agree with.

Here are some more links (they are JUST links, news and related material):
http://www.gcc.edu/news/faculty/edit...tudy_print.htm

http://www.fathersforlife.org/gay_gene.htm

[Robin_NL]

Jamie, no worries man.Take care.

In my life, women are the cutest things possible.


But that's MY LIFE.

[Enroutte]

I LOVE GAY PEOPLE. I think it's really sad that there are people today who discriminate against someone else because of their sexual orientation. I'm on a dance team, and a LOT of the guys I compete with are gay. Growing up with them I've heard so many stories about how they've been made fun of, and how people don't understand and think that being gay is a CHOICE. It's not. I was in AP Biology last year and there was a section on how people are starting to find that there is a "GAY GENE" in DNA or something. So there you go folks, people aren't gay by choice.

People who are gay are not any different from the rest of us -- besides the obvious -- and should therefore be treated with equal respect. Being gay doesn't not allow someone to love another person. Let them get married. It doesn't hurt anyone.

[Robin_NL]

I agree with Enroutte.

i'm going to bed.

[Robin_NL]

One thing. Jamie, YOU know who you are. That's the most important thing here. You are Jamie.

Welterusten(sleep well)

[shimshimhada]

Originally Posted by Enroutte

It's not. I was in AP Biology last year and there was a section on how people are starting to find that there is a "GAY GENE" in DNA or something. So there you go folks, people aren't gay by choice.

Right...I guess just because you read a section in AP Bio about a "gay gene" in DNA or "something" YUP YUP

[lux.sh]

Honestly. hmmm.
gay people... I don't know. I don't like them. the way they talk.. just doesn't "sound right". the way they act.. just doesn't... "look right".

but I don't see why government should restrict or ban gay marriage.
Gay people aren't animals. They have their rights.

[NaTuReB0Y]

My gay cousin is a FREAK....his parents disowned him! They blamed themselves for his unfortunate twist of fate. We always knew he was gay since childhood....but his parents never accepted it until he was forcefully married to some nice woman....had 4 kids with her....and left her for some dude he met over the internet.......FUCKIN' LOSER! Everyone hates him! Including me......the fucker left four kids behind to be raised by a single parent mom!

[JamieA]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

One thing. Jamie, YOU know who you are. That's the most important thing here. You are Jamie.

Welterusten(sleep well)

Thanks, you too.

[JamieA]

Originally Posted by NaTuReB0Y

My gay cousin is a FREAK....his parents disowned him! They blamed themselves for his unfortunate twist of fate. We always knew he was gay since childhood....but his parents never accepted it until he was forcefully married to some nice woman....had 4 kids with her....and left her for some dude he met over the internet.......FUCKIN' LOSER! Everyone hates him! Including me......the fucker left four kids behind to be raised by a single parent mom!

I don't think people should escape their responsibilities, especially to children who didn't ask to be born, that is wrong.

What do you mean by "forcefully married"?

The whole story sounds sad to me, sounds like he got married to be accepted, not because he wanted to. This is why some people just end up killing themselves. They feel trapped by this thing inside them that they wish they could change but can't.

I am fortunate that my parents aren't like that and they didn't have a problem with it, neither did any of my friends, nor any of my work collegues or staff. But not everyone is that lucky.

[Enroutte]

Originally Posted by lux.sh

Honestly. hmmm.
gay people... I don't know. I don't like them. the way they talk.. just doesn't "sound right". the way they act.. just doesn't... "look right".

but I don't see why government should restrict or ban gay marriage.
Gay people aren't animals. They have their rights.

You realize not all gay guys talk like, "OMG! GIRLLLLLL please."

[ZenDriver]

I am a big supporter of gay rights and I am relatively shocked by the number of homophobic fascists on this forum.

That being said, I can see why people might not like fem-men. The tight t-shirts, primped hair and that voice makes me want to grab them by the neck and scream at them to man the hell up. Still though, that doesn't mean one should discriminate...

[lux.sh]

Originally Posted by Enroutte

You realize not all gay guys talk like, "OMG! GIRLLLLLL please."

Exactly. thats why I still support gay rights.

I am talking about the ones who wants to be "the girl" side.
You know, there are two different gay people, one who dress/talk totally like a man who loves.. guys. Okay, thats fine with me.
And then, there are ones who dress/talk like a girl.

Around local starbucks, I see men with short skirt, long fake hair, tank-top and red lipstick on all the times.
that just.... doesn't seem right. I don't want to offend anybody, but.
eek. I think I have my rights to say I don't enjoy watching such scene.
Sometimes I just feel bad for them, they should've been born as a girl.

[JamieA]

Trust me, there is discrimination within the glbt community along these lines also, so this isn't just a "straight man" response. In Oz we call them "screaming queens" in the US, I believe they are called "Nelly Queens".

Just as there are butch "Diesel Dykes" and "Lipstick Lesbians".

To each his or her own I say.

The axis is the separatists who believe standing out is the path to ending discrimination vs those who seek integration and all the shades inbetween.

I just seek to be always be true to myself and do my own thing, but I don't see the need to shun the world in the process. I probably wouldn't have revealed my gayness (because it really isn't relevant to this forum) had I not read some of the comments in this post and felt the need to speak up against views I disagree with.

[wahoo]

why not civil union w/ full benefits w/ respect to insurance, hospital visitation, wills etc? 'Marriage' is simply a term which is 'loaded' with som many meanings...why is there such a premium on 'marriage'??? My .02 is that the gay rights activists want to (for lack of a better word) 'normalize' their sexuality. I'm not geneticist but I'm not certain that its 'normal' ie...IMO, if it was we'd have half the population gay...also, why is it that most gay couples have a masc/effeminate personality ascribed to one partner? I'm NOT going to call it a defect etc...but simply 'human'. Regardless, if we were to be completely honest, it would not be a 'norm'...so why ascribe 'marriage' with all its loaded connotations to it? As far as being able to love one another why is civil union not good enough with all the benefits of marriage? I think that some of the extreme activists want to be recognized by state and church...

My opinion, marriage is too loaded and should be recognized by a 'church' while the civil union is in the realm of the state. BTW, from what I understand, some marriages aren't reciprocal in other states, 'officially'..more credence to civil union rather than marriage. 'Marriage' is a moniker to be recognized officially by the church in my opinion. To each their own.