Cracked BMW Alloy Wheels --- Taking legal action

Carrera RSR · 12-17-2008, 05:22 PM

Having chipped some paint off my WTCC rims, I was surprised how thick the paint application is. What part of the wheel is being measured here. The rim edge or the centre section. I can't believe they could even paint the wheel within 0.3mm tolerance let alone cast it.

Agree a new set of alloys need to be measured from stock as well as an equivalent used car of the same age from the 'used' car lot.

willhollin · 12-17-2008, 05:29 PM

Could we all not chip in and buy a new set, then have a raffle to see who wins them once they have served their purpose?

Cafe.Racer · 12-17-2008, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carrerarsr

Having chipped some paint off my WTCC rims, I was surprised how thick the paint application is. What part of the wheel is being measured here. The rim edge or the centre section. I can't believe they could even paint the wheel within 0.3mm tolerance let alone cast it.

Agree a new set of alloys need to be measured from stock as well as an equivalent used car of the same age from the 'used' car lot.

I was thinking the same.

It still makes me laugh that they measure the runout on a CRACKED alloy (which, let's face it, is no longer going to be "round" because it's got cracks in it, FFS!) and conclude that because the runout is too high, the cracks must be caused by damage!

F31-340i · 12-17-2008, 07:53 PM

Your last point is a good one - the cracking could lead to increased run out.

This site suggests manuf tolerances are typically around 15/1000th inch - or 0.38mm. Deformation of upto around 0.6mm is not visible to the eye.

http://www.audiworld.com/news/01/whe.../content.shtml

Irrespective of the tolerances, I'm not convinced a deformation of such a small amount (e.g the 1mm reported above) that that is being observed above should result in a crack - unless the material properties of the alu alloy are somehow unusually brittle, or contain flaws which precipitate stress raisers and hence cracks during "normal" loads - both of which would suggest a manufacturing defect problem.

Good luck with this. The fact this issue is common suggest these wheels are not fit for purpose. The fact that all 4 wheels are out suggest the forces being experienced are far from abnormal in use, hence not fit for purpose!?

scooba0010 · 12-18-2008, 01:47 AM

The garage series on sky tv.They had a golf in with issues of vibration and on inspection while up on the ramp you could see 3 off the rims were egg shaped ,

Possibly not relevant but they must have been out by cms as you could visibly see them out of shape but they had held there air pressure ! .

pjs · 12-22-2008, 07:24 AM

BMW called me, want to re-inspect the wheels. Geared up for Xmas Eve. Defence due to be filed tomorrow. Should be interesting.

xenon · 12-22-2008, 07:36 AM

Go PJS!

dxb335d · 12-22-2008, 08:34 AM

GWAN SON.

330cdsport · 12-22-2008, 09:21 AM

Good luck PJS - hope you have better luck than the rest of us.

I just got my welded rim back from the engineering company. Because it is on the inside edge of the rim it will never be seen thankfully.
Fitted it and all seems good - for the timebeing. They reckon that it will crack again somewhere else though.

booforty · 12-22-2008, 12:22 PM

Go on me son

willhollin · 12-22-2008, 12:54 PM

All the best Squire.

SoYank · 12-22-2008, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjs

BMW called me, want to re-inspect the wheels. Geared up for Xmas Eve. Defence due to be filed tomorrow. Should be interesting.

Insist that you be present at all times with the wheels.

Mark II · 12-22-2008, 03:47 PM

Let's hope they stop farting around and cough up what they owe you.

Best wishes for a crisp set of notes for Christmas

pjs · 12-22-2008, 04:53 PM

It's strange on BMW's part - why send a big cheese from Bracknell to be in Leeds for 9am on Xmas eve, after they file a defence. As I said to the Cust Service Manager - it will cost them more than the wheels to send him. And yes, I wont let the wheels out of my sight, they are my property after all. I have a few ideas what might happen, but as ever I'll assume Big Bro BMW is reading so happy Xmas BMW.

And the point about the validity of doing a run out test on cracked wheels, so bleeding obvious but never occured to me its fundamentally floored.

M3-FAST · 12-22-2008, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjs

but as ever I'll assume Big Bro BMW is reading so happy Xmas BMW.

Hopefully they are reading - maybe they would like to quickly tot up how much each of our cars cost us (even just the few of us posting on this thread alone would come to many hundreds of thousand £'ssss), and realise that they are playing with the reputation of a brand that we have all invested heavily in. It only takes a few of us to start losing faith in the brand and look elsewhere next time we purchase a car, and they have lost a lot more than the cost of a set of FAULTY wheels!

Anyways, rant over! I hope you get a good result tomorrow

F31-340i · 12-22-2008, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjs

....it will cost them more than the wheels to send him.

They clearly have a lot to loose if you set a precedent - perhaps they know that they've replaced hundreds of wheels, and may have lots of other claims! Tells its own story as to the fitness for purpose of these wheels! You may want to mention this - perhaps ask how many other owners this has happened to - must be a lot to spend so much defending the case etc....

Good luck - as an engineer, my gut feeling, admittedly without having seen the wheels, is that you deserve to win this case (as a professional engineer, I wouldn't normally comment without seeing evidence, but this is the internet...)

xenon · 12-23-2008, 03:02 AM

I very much doubt "BMW" are reading this but even if they are they won't be encouraged to do much. BMW care about as much for their customers as I care about the X factor (i.e., not at all).

I have the 225M wheels on my car and although this has not yet happened to me this whole situation means I shall not be buying another BMW in the future. When it does happen to me I shall write letters to every single publication that's ever published anything about cars ever in the hope that it will get noticed by Which? and AutoExpress etc.

F31-340i · 12-23-2008, 04:50 AM

pjs

Just remembered something that may help. Not googled yet, but I seem to recall that Audi had some problems with the original 19" rims fitted to the original RS4 - which came out in what 1999/2000? I only remember a short piece being reported in Autocar at the time. It maybe worth trawling the Audi forums to find out more. The bottom line was that on UK roads, the 19" rims were buckling (and maybe cracking?) - a problem not seen in the domestic market I don't think. Cars with the problem did get to owners I think.

J

Edit: looks slightly different issue - they were too soft....

http://rs246.com/index.php?name=PNph...wtopic&t=48974

...still lots of precedent, with Audi still replacing the defective wheels as goodwill in 2008.

pjs · 12-24-2008, 10:58 AM

Not a lot happened this morning.

Went to Scothall as agreeed, all very polite and amiable. Big cheese technical bod from Bracknall and Scothall service manager re-tested wheels in front of me - doing run out tests again. On the point of testing wheels which have already cracked, I didnt get an answer that a layman would understand, however I should now expect customers services to get back in touch whatever that means. The only new information was that one of the wheels had been cracked for a substantial time period because there was evidence of corosion in the crack.

As for the Defence, a very predictable set of denials has been submitted courtesy of thier 'Senior Legal Counsel' which I will post for all to see when my efforts are concluded. Time for me to take further advice.

In an effort to avoid my laptop for as long as possible over the festive period I'll only update when something happens, thanks agian all for the support, ideas and opinions, so happy xmas for now, over and out

Cafe.Racer · 12-24-2008, 02:54 PM

Did they run a dial indicator? Where did they measure the run out?

The bit about corrosion - so? They are still cracked, unless they are suggesting they were cracked before you got the car? Anyway, are they corrosion experts? How long does it take for corrosion to form? There is a thing called corrosion cracking, not sure if it applies...

E92 LeMans · 01-07-2009, 06:10 PM

Any New PJS you been Bumped of by German Mafia ?

chester · 01-12-2009, 10:06 AM

I have had three alloys go in the space of 12 months - all rear wheels - the last under 10k miles. Yet again I contacted BMW UK - letters to Mr. Klaus Kibsgaard (MD)& Mr. Michael Allen (Customer Service Manager). Mr Allen responded to the latest claim for the wheel to be replaced under warranty - with... the alloy was cracked as a result of impact damage and not as a result of manufacturing issues. I now intend to get the wheels tested by a third party and if they confirm it is a manufacturing issue I intend to go legal. My question - are others still experiencing the same issues. Interested to know if anyone is making any progress with BMW or the dealer.

12-17-2008, 05:22 PM	#67
Carrera RSR Colonel 75 Rep 2,937 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Location: Location: iTrader: (1)	Having chipped some paint off my WTCC rims, I was surprised how thick the paint application is. What part of the wheel is being measured here. The rim edge or the centre section. I can't believe they could even paint the wheel within 0.3mm tolerance let alone cast it. Agree a new set of alloys need to be measured from stock as well as an equivalent used car of the same age from the 'used' car lot.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-17-2008, 05:29 PM	#68
willhollin Major General 269 Rep 9,915 Posts Drives: VW T5 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Worcestershire iTrader: (1) Garage List 2007 BMW E92 330d SE [10.00] 2010 Transporter T5 ... [0.00]	Could we all not chip in and buy a new set, then have a raffle to see who wins them once they have served their purpose? __________________
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12-17-2008, 07:53 PM	#70
F31-340i Colonel 160 Rep 2,475 Posts Drives: BMW 340i Touring Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: ... iTrader: (1)	Your last point is a good one - the cracking could lead to increased run out. This site suggests manuf tolerances are typically around 15/1000th inch - or 0.38mm. Deformation of upto around 0.6mm is not visible to the eye. http://www.audiworld.com/news/01/whe.../content.shtml Irrespective of the tolerances, I'm not convinced a deformation of such a small amount (e.g the 1mm reported above) that that is being observed above should result in a crack - unless the material properties of the alu alloy are somehow unusually brittle, or contain flaws which precipitate stress raisers and hence cracks during "normal" loads - both of which would suggest a manufacturing defect problem. Good luck with this. The fact this issue is common suggest these wheels are not fit for purpose. The fact that all 4 wheels are out suggest the forces being experienced are far from abnormal in use, hence not fit for purpose!?
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-18-2008, 01:47 AM	#71
scooba0010 Colonel 158 Rep 2,349 Posts Drives: F32 430D-MOTORSPORT Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: UK iTrader: (1)	The Garage The garage series on sky tv.They had a golf in with issues of vibration and on inspection while up on the ramp you could see 3 off the rims were egg shaped , Possibly not relevant but they must have been out by cms as you could visibly see them out of shape but they had held there air pressure ! .
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12-22-2008, 07:24 AM	#72
pjs Colonel 284 Rep 2,774 Posts Drives: i8 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: NORTH iTrader: (1)	Something is happening BMW called me, want to re-inspect the wheels. Geared up for Xmas Eve. Defence due to be filed tomorrow. Should be interesting.
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12-22-2008, 07:36 AM	#73
xenon Major General 1463 Rep 8,187 Posts Drives: 2021 G21 330i M-Sport Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Coventry iTrader: (0)	Go PJS! __________________ Ian Current: 2021 G21 330i M-Sport Previous: 2018 A6 Avant S-Line MMI+, 2014 F31 320d M-Sport, 2013 F10 520d M-Sport, 2011 F10 530d M-Sport, 2008 320i M-Sport Coupe, 2002 325i, 2001 318i valvetronic, 1998 318i, 1996 525i, 1990 Porsche 944S2
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12-22-2008, 08:34 AM	#74
dxb335d The Tarmac Terrorist 995 Rep 29,344 Posts Drives: 997.2 GT3 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: ''Fandango Towers'' iTrader: (3) Garage List 2010 Porsche 997.2 GT3 [9.50] 2003 BMW E46 M3 [6.00] 2007 BMW E92 335D [5.50]	GWAN SON. __________________ 997.2 GT3
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12-22-2008, 09:21 AM	#75
330cdsport Right Responsible 71 Rep 1,647 Posts Drives: AW F21 M135i Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: N. Ireland iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 535d M Sport [0.00] 2007 E91 320 M Sport [0.00] 2007 E92 335d M Sport [0.00]	Good luck PJS - hope you have better luck than the rest of us. I just got my welded rim back from the engineering company. Because it is on the inside edge of the rim it will never be seen thankfully. Fitted it and all seems good - for the timebeing. They reckon that it will crack again somewhere else though. __________________ Last: 330cd Sport - Silver Grey, 335d M Sport Coupe, F10 535d M Sport. Current: AW F21 M135i, Coral Red, Pro Nav, Vis, HK, & Clunky Adaptive Suspension Current: F15 X5 XDrive 40d M Sport - Space Grey, lots of toys.
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12-22-2008, 12:22 PM	#76
booforty Major General 343 Rep 8,809 Posts Drives: E92 M3 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: London, UK iTrader: (0) Garage List 2008 E92 M3 [0.00]	Go on me son
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12-22-2008, 12:54 PM	#77
willhollin Major General 269 Rep 9,915 Posts Drives: VW T5 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Worcestershire iTrader: (1) Garage List 2007 BMW E92 330d SE [10.00] 2010 Transporter T5 ... [0.00]	All the best Squire. __________________
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12-22-2008, 03:47 PM	#79
Mark II The Grim Reapers Love Child 49 Rep 515 Posts Drives: BMW e92 M-Sport Coupe Join Date: May 2008 Location: A little bit left of Sane, near Tongue in Cheek. iTrader: (0)	Let's hope they stop farting around and cough up what they owe you. Best wishes for a crisp set of notes for Christmas __________________ Mark II Previous: e92 M-Sport. TiAg. Black Dakota. Creamy 6cyl diesel. Stage II Tune. Performance exhaust. K&N. Auto+paddles. Quaife LSD. BMW BBK+Cool Carbon S/T. Goodridge. 19" Breyton Race GTS. Vredesteins. M3 lip. Prof nav. Xenons. Voice. Sun protection. Pdc. etc..
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12-22-2008, 04:53 PM	#80
pjs Colonel 284 Rep 2,774 Posts Drives: i8 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: NORTH iTrader: (1)	Thanks for the support It's strange on BMW's part - why send a big cheese from Bracknell to be in Leeds for 9am on Xmas eve, after they file a defence. As I said to the Cust Service Manager - it will cost them more than the wheels to send him. And yes, I wont let the wheels out of my sight, they are my property after all. I have a few ideas what might happen, but as ever I'll assume Big Bro BMW is reading so happy Xmas BMW. And the point about the validity of doing a run out test on cracked wheels, so bleeding obvious but never occured to me its fundamentally floored.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-23-2008, 03:02 AM	#83
xenon Major General 1463 Rep 8,187 Posts Drives: 2021 G21 330i M-Sport Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Coventry iTrader: (0)	I very much doubt "BMW" are reading this but even if they are they won't be encouraged to do much. BMW care about as much for their customers as I care about the X factor (i.e., not at all). I have the 225M wheels on my car and although this has not yet happened to me this whole situation means I shall not be buying another BMW in the future. When it does happen to me I shall write letters to every single publication that's ever published anything about cars ever in the hope that it will get noticed by Which? and AutoExpress etc. __________________ Ian Current: 2021 G21 330i M-Sport Previous: 2018 A6 Avant S-Line MMI+, 2014 F31 320d M-Sport, 2013 F10 520d M-Sport, 2011 F10 530d M-Sport, 2008 320i M-Sport Coupe, 2002 325i, 2001 318i valvetronic, 1998 318i, 1996 525i, 1990 Porsche 944S2
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12-23-2008, 04:50 AM	#84
F31-340i Colonel 160 Rep 2,475 Posts Drives: BMW 340i Touring Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: ... iTrader: (1)	pjs Just remembered something that may help. Not googled yet, but I seem to recall that Audi had some problems with the original 19" rims fitted to the original RS4 - which came out in what 1999/2000? I only remember a short piece being reported in Autocar at the time. It maybe worth trawling the Audi forums to find out more. The bottom line was that on UK roads, the 19" rims were buckling (and maybe cracking?) - a problem not seen in the domestic market I don't think. Cars with the problem did get to owners I think. J Edit: looks slightly different issue - they were too soft.... http://rs246.com/index.php?name=PNph...wtopic&t=48974 ...still lots of precedent, with Audi still replacing the defective wheels as goodwill in 2008.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-24-2008, 10:58 AM	#85
pjs Colonel 284 Rep 2,774 Posts Drives: i8 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: NORTH iTrader: (1)	today then Not a lot happened this morning. Went to Scothall as agreeed, all very polite and amiable. Big cheese technical bod from Bracknall and Scothall service manager re-tested wheels in front of me - doing run out tests again. On the point of testing wheels which have already cracked, I didnt get an answer that a layman would understand, however I should now expect customers services to get back in touch whatever that means. The only new information was that one of the wheels had been cracked for a substantial time period because there was evidence of corosion in the crack. As for the Defence, a very predictable set of denials has been submitted courtesy of thier 'Senior Legal Counsel' which I will post for all to see when my efforts are concluded. Time for me to take further advice. In an effort to avoid my laptop for as long as possible over the festive period I'll only update when something happens, thanks agian all for the support, ideas and opinions, so happy xmas for now, over and out
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-24-2008, 02:54 PM	#86
Cafe.Racer Captain 30 Rep 896 Posts Drives: 320d Touring Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Nottingham, UK iTrader: (1)	Did they run a dial indicator? Where did they measure the run out? The bit about corrosion - so? They are still cracked, unless they are suggesting they were cracked before you got the car? Anyway, are they corrosion experts? How long does it take for corrosion to form? There is a thing called corrosion cracking, not sure if it applies... __________________ Phil
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01-07-2009, 06:10 PM	#87
E92 LeMans Second Lieutenant 9 Rep 296 Posts Drives: E92 330d M Sport Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: London iTrader: (0) Garage List 2014 M235i [0.00] 2007 330d M Sport [0.00]	Any New PJS you been Bumped of by German Mafia ?
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01-12-2009, 10:06 AM	#88
chester Registered 0 Rep 2 Posts Drives: 335i Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: North west iTrader: (0)	I have had three alloys go in the space of 12 months - all rear wheels - the last under 10k miles. Yet again I contacted BMW UK - letters to Mr. Klaus Kibsgaard (MD)& Mr. Michael Allen (Customer Service Manager). Mr Allen responded to the latest claim for the wheel to be replaced under warranty - with... the alloy was cracked as a result of impact damage and not as a result of manufacturing issues. I now intend to get the wheels tested by a third party and if they confirm it is a manufacturing issue I intend to go legal. My question - are others still experiencing the same issues. Interested to know if anyone is making any progress with BMW or the dealer.
	Appreciate 0 Quote