[vladberca]

Everything will be changed once the new G series will be released: a major weight drop.
This will happen across the range.
I still don't like the FWD strategy other than Mini line-up, but time will tell how good these models will be.

[mdss6]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The Architecture used for the next generation BMW 3er , 5er , ,7er , X models and the Rolls-Royce Ghost is modular...

...It is in fact similar to what is used in the current 5er , 6er , 7er , X5 etc and that is why we have extended model variation in the BMW 5er Gran Turismo , BMW 6er Gran Coupe and the China only BMW 5er Li.

Then there will be a shared architecture in collaboration with Toyota for a range of sportier models including the next 6er and Z models.
Again this is scalable and modular to be utilised on a range of jointly developed models between BMW and Toyota/Lexus.

Scott, thanks for this further update and clarification. I think platform/architecture sharing has generally been a success for both the customer and industry. Both benefit from more product choices (there are many cars that exist that wouldn't if they had to have a separate engineered platform) and higher quality product (in theory fewer major components it should be possible to put in the resources to make them last longer, and if nothing else replacement parts typically cost less for common parts than specialized ones).

But, frequently one of the prime questions in life is how far to take things. It makes a lot of sense of vehicles of similar size / mass / CG / and structural openings (think sedan vs roadster vs SUV) to share platforms. The more different they are, the less it makes sense. And the more dramatically compromised some version will be. You note BMW's success with the shared 5- and 7-series. And others have noted great success in platform sharing for similarly sized vehicles. But the initial announcement was "all" RWD BMWs will share the same platform, and that raised a lot of concern for some. Certainly it made absolutely no sense to me for the roadsters and the Rolls-Royce Ghost to share the same architecture. One of those was no longer going to be what they had been! So to me there is good news in your confirmation or at least reminder that there will be other RWD BMW platforms. Shared with Toyota in this case. And that is good news.

But to me and others it is bad news that there will not be a small RWD sedan/coupe/hatchback. The VW Golf and Mercedes CLA are great vehicles. But in no way have RWD character.

Originally Posted by Mahzari

For those who want to switch over to Porsche: the Macan shares a platform with the Tiguan and Q5; the Cayenne shares a platform with the Touareg and Q7.

I am fine with platform sharing, say, if the 1, 2, 3, 4, X1, X3, X4 had one chassis and the 5, 6, 7, X5, X6 had another. But having ONE complete chassis from the 116d to the 760Li is kind of ridiculous. One reason why the F10 5 series was criticized for being numb and isolated is because it was too similar to the F01 7 series.

As I noted above, I generally agree platform sharing is a good thing for vehicles of relatively similar properties (and even that can be stretched pretty far). But I also think the final point above is worth reemphasizing as it gets to why so many BMW driving enthusiasts are concerned about this move. Many 5-series buyers are happy with their slightly smaller 7-series that is the F10. As a former E39 owner, the F10 has no interest to me. It is too big, bloated, heavy, numb. Not an enthusiasts car. So the idea of the 3-series being forced onto a platform shared by these two - and a Rolls - is concerning indeed. Some say "wait and see" and I agree can't for sure know the final outcome. But several of those saying there are no worries also report they are driving the big cars, not 1, 2 and 3 series. So pardon me if that does little to allay my concern. Many enthusiasts think the 3-series is already too big and soft. The 7-series based one will be tighter and more direct?

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

It also brings BMW at the forefront of engineering innovation.
The first look at an exciting new future will be celebrated in the form of a new Luxury Concept car that will be unveiled in April ahead of the Auto China in Beijing.

Scott, is this new Luxury Concept car going to be sized like a 7-series? I know you can't give it all away, but the most recent concept I saw was the Lasso Coupe (on the 7-series platform) in Geneva last week, and it was monstrously large. Coupe, yes. Enthusiast targeted, no.

As I final note, I will repeat what I think is good news - BMW will have more than more one RWD platform (at least one shared with Toyota). And we can hope for more? Thanks

[bavarian19]

Why doesn't BMW ask GM how sharing platforms and multiple brands worked out for them? How long has it taken GM to shake their image of a cheaper vehicle based on cost savings in the 80's and 90's? I don't think they still have.

I also hear that FWD cars are cheaper to produce, so why not go full bore FWD?


The savings will never be passed to the customer, and only lead to a more average vehicle. I am now liking the prospect of a Porsche small sedan even more!

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by turbo8765

Nice of you to do what you must and try to put a positive PR spin on this, but in the end this is c/w and indicative of the paradigm shift that has occurred at BMW.

BMW appears to believe profitability in the future will not be optimized by focusing on things that have lead me to purchase numerous BMWs in the past. They've abandoned the driving enthusiast.

Everything mentioned above is indication they have not abandoned the enthusiast as they combatting primary issues for driving enthusiasts such as lighter cars and emphasis on weight reduction across the spectrum and a new generation sports car programme which remains RWD/AWD.

The FWD cars are a symbol of growing demand for compact cars across the globe.
The compact market is highly competitive and cars entering the compact and sub-compact segment have to be competitive and in key areas such as space and available technology. If you sat in the Active Tourer in Geneva? Tell me you were not impressed by the quality and space of the interior?

Compact and Sub-Compact cars are important because they are and in the case of the new FWD architecture extremely profitable.
FWD based cars will pay for extended future research and development.

There will be further developments with BMWi but at the moment all current concentration is on the first two BMWi models the i3 and i8 which have gone from concept to production. There will be another BMWi concept soon that will show potentially further progress and again it will be reaction that will determine its future.

The M cars are going to be in the greatest position of all. The M3 and M4 shows what was available at that time. But progress by 2016/2017 when the G30 based M5 arrives in 2017 that progress in CFRP will be much further along.

The G30 will use CFRP in its structure but M5 will follow the M3 and M4 and use it in key areas of the engineering and for the first time on the body panels.
The same follows true for the joint BMW/Toyota cars which will include the next generation BMW M6.

BMW is the worlds largest manufacturer in producing Carbon Fibre based cars and this is due to the significant investment to build facilities and develop the process. The benefit is that it becomes entirely cost effective and allows BMW to spread the material across their whole portfolio as it becomes produced in more volume and becomes even more cost-effective.

How this is important regards an industry rumour at the Geneva Autoshow regarding the next Mercedes-Benz E-Klasse which they were considering to sacrifice its profitability in order for a lightweight CFRP structure like the BMW i3.
For them to do that they need to have a car like the i3 in production now and they do not , they are not even at that level of producing volume CFRP and they need the E-Klasse's profitability.

BMW's Autonomous drive function is developed towards Safety and Self-Park in which you will be able to step out of you car and use your display key - similar to the BMW i8s to garage your car.

[WWM3]

What's with the wait and see or have faith comments? We have already seen how the 5 and 7 sharing one platform ruined the driving dynamics of the 5. Maybe that was due to the 7 platform not being very good to begin with because both cars were not adored by enthusiasts.

I think this sounds like great news for shareholders and terrible news for enthusiasts.

[CurbBender'90]

I smell increased profit sharing checks!! If I were you better get a good BMW now before your driving a 3 series with just a 6 series body kit on it! Smh

[cs4444]

Originally Posted by WWM3

What's with the wait and see or have faith comments? We have already seen how the 5 and 7 sharing one platform ruined the driving dynamics of the 5. Maybe that was due to the 7 platform not being very good to begin with because both cars were not adored by enthusiasts.

I think this sounds like great news for shareholders and terrible news for enthusiasts.

Very narrowed minded approach, so we should just write off bmw b/c one platform was not miles better than its competitors, but rather on par? Bmw has been successful b/c they have been able to adapt and change for over 70 years. I guarantee the G class chassis will restore bmws edge over the competition. They will continue to improve. Some people need to F.O. With these bmw has lost its way B.S.

[Chihuahua]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The Architecture used for the next generation BMW 3er , 5er , ,7er , X models and the Rolls-Royce Ghost is modular , the Architecture is the central piece and then depending on which model the remaining sections are modular and then applied to distinguish each model whether in SAV or extended wheelbase models.....

Norbert,

This is a nice piece of PR spin, but let's be frank: you are ordering this because you want to boost stock price by cutting back on manufacturing costs. You saw what Nissan did with the FM platform and thought "us too!".

Your primary concern is stock price, and you're compromising the engineering integrity that got BMW to where it is today.

Frankly, I think you suck as CEO. I didn't think it could get worse than Bernt Piechereider.

Greed. It's shameful.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Year's_End

Why don't you wait until you can actually drive the upcoming model range. A shared platform doesn't have to spell compromise. Time will tell and you can vote with your wallet.

This is exactly the opposite of what BMW advertised just a few years ago.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The Architecture used for the next generation BMW 3er , 5er , ,7er , X models and the Rolls-Royce Ghost is modular , the Architecture is the central piece and then depending on which model the remaining sections are modular and then applied to distinguish each model whether in SAV or extended wheelbase models.

Its an intelligent approach to a shared architecture. It is in fact similar to what is used in the current 5er , 6er , 7er , X5 etc and that is why we have extended model variation in the BMW 5er Gran Turismo , BMW 6er Gran Coupe and the China only BMW 5er Li.

The intelligent part is really the introduction of the Carbon Age for core BMW models beginning with the all new 7er. On top of this architecture brings an intelligent mix of material technology which combines aluminium , magnesium and CFRP to each models structure.

The weight advantages over existing architecture is outstanding. There is a BMW i8 video you should watch because it essentially gives the game away to how BMW will bring Cost effective not Cost cutting changes to each new model , less is most definitely more especially in achieving overall weight reduction.

Upcoming Technical innovation will also be shared across each model - Advanced Head-Up Display with incorporated surround augmented reality and passenger entertainment , social facility , Autonomous driving and Self-Park, BMWs new ride refinement control and Laser Headlights to name a few.
This will be possible on even the 3er because of the single architecture.

Then there will be a shared architecture in collaboration with Toyota for a range of sportier models including the next 6er and Z models.
Again this is scalable and modular to be utilised on a range of jointly developed models between BMW and Toyota/Lexus.
The key part to this significance will be all resources will be able to be contributed between both brands and you are looking at possibly a first a full Carbon fibre tub structure in a mid-entry Roadster. This is strategically and an important area of innovation. No competitor will be able to match that in a volume product like a Z3.

Of course the cost savings will be there , but it will also allow BMW to challenge future legislation and rising costs but still develop new niches as well as extending individual model portfolios to appeal to new and existing customers.

It also brings BMW at the forefront of engineering innovation.
The first look at an exciting new future will be celebrated in the form of a new Luxury Concept car that will be unveiled in April ahead of the Auto China in Beijing.

So Scott, every other manufacturer has been platform sharing for years, and (supposed) PR blokes like you have pissed on brands such as Cadillac, Lincoln, Lexus, and Infinity for platform sharing luxo brands with the parent company's mundane brands such as Chevrolet, Ford, Toyota, and Nissan because it make for mundane cars the BMW would never, ever produce because it is an "independent manufacturer". But now that BMW decides to follow suit and engineer a whole bunch of models off of one platform (like the other manufacturers have been doing for decades) and all of a sudden it makes BMW on "the forefront of engineering innovation." Seriously, Laugh Out Fucking Loud.

[cs4444]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So Scott, every other manufacturer has been platform sharing for years, and (supposed) PR blokes like you have pissed on brands such as Cadillac, Lincoln, Lexus, and Infinity for platform sharing luxo brands with the parent company's mundane brands such as Chevrolet, Ford, Toyota, and Nissan because it make for mundane cars the BMW would never, ever produce because it is an "independent manufacturer". But now that BMW decides to follow suit and engineer a whole bunch of models off of one platform (like the other manufacturers have been doing for decades) and all of a sudden it makes BMW on "the forefront of engineering innovation." Seriously, Laugh Out Fucking Loud.

Im getting dizzy from all the spin.

If you read Scott's entire post. Bmw's platform sharing would be at the forefront b/c it would be the first to utilize carbon fiber, magnesium, and aluminum, all in significant quantities. Something no manufacture has done over such a potentially large range of models.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by cs4444

Im getting dizzy from all the spin.

If you read Scott's entire post. Bmw's platform sharing would be at the forefront b/c it would be the first to utilize carbon fiber, magnesium, and aluminum, all in significant quantities. Something no manufacture has done over such a potentially large range of models.

Someone gets it.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by bavarian19

Why doesn't BMW ask GM how sharing platforms and multiple brands worked out for them? How long has it taken GM to shake their image of a cheaper vehicle based on cost savings in the 80's and 90's? I don't think they still have.

I also hear that FWD cars are cheaper to produce, so why not go full bore FWD?


The savings will never be passed to the customer, and only lead to a more average vehicle. I am now liking the prospect of a Porsche small sedan even more!

Because GM like VAG did one platform for various models and they were all monotonous , drove the same and extremely limited in every way possible.
They were not modular , therefore they could not distinguish each model which is why each model was the same size and had no redeeming character.

The current generation of BMWs are modular from a central architecture which allows modular elements and placement of firewalls , suspension and structure mounts to fit within each model. That is what is found in current BMW models.

The next generation follows the same idea but will embody an intelligent material mix in the heaviest points of the architecture and vehicle structure and allow for additional placement for electrification for the arrival of the eDrive models starting with the X5 and 2er Active Tourer as shown with their initial concept cars.

[Qunadry]

Keeping my 135i for as long as it does not become too expensive to maintain and repair. Then it looks like Hyundai or Kia. Why bother with an overpriced German Korean clone.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by Qunadry

Keeping my 135i for as long as it does not become too expensive to maintain and repair. Then it looks like Hyundai or Kia. Why bother with an overpriced German Korean clone.

[cgm1978]

CAFE standards for model year 2017-2025 cars sold here in America has forced all auto makers to prepare. BMW is doing this by introducing the B-series engines and hybrids.

Weight saving features like CRFP will allow the gas mileage to increase across the lineup. They also have to meet EU6 emission targets. Legislation is the cause of this.

[Technic]

I think that CFRP will be the game changer in platform sharing.

I'm more than fine with this corporate decision, I can't wait for it.

[mdss6]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

...If you sat in the Active Tourer in Geneva? Tell me you were not impressed by the quality and space of the interior?

I drove down for the first two public days of the Geneva show, with a request from one of my colleagues for a full report on the Active Tourer. However, for the public days both of the show cars were kept behind a wall, nose on to the public, and not even on a turning mount to see all sides. I appeared from a distance that the interior was indeed high quality. But there was no opportunity to evaluate space, driving position, or visibility. I left appropriate feedback. With the BMW reps, not my colleague, since I could tell him almost nothing useful. Luckily for me the cars I'm interested in were wide open for a good close inspection (even if the paint selections were poor).

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

...The M cars are going to be in the greatest position of all. The M3 and M4 shows what was available at that time. But progress by 2016/2017 when the G30 based M5 arrives in 2017 that progress in CFRP will be much further along.

The G30 will use CFRP in its structure but M5 will follow the M3 and M4 and use it in key areas of the engineering and for the first time on the body panels.
The same follows true for the joint BMW/Toyota cars which will include the next generation BMW M6.

BMW is the worlds largest manufacturer in producing Carbon Fibre based cars and this is due to the significant investment to build facilities and develop the process. The benefit is that it becomes entirely cost effective and allows BMW to spread the material across their whole portfolio as it becomes produced in more volume and becomes even more cost-effective....

This sounds very promising indeed. But I hope it will not be used to make bigger cars with more equipment that end up the same mass as their predecessors. There was previously lot of talk about reduced weight as higher end cars became increasingly aluminum intensive. But instead of absolute weight reductions, it became "comparably equipped" (and almost all the extra equipment was standard). Talk is that the CFRP intensive cars will have significantly lower overall mass. I really really hope that is true. If so, then that will be good news for enthusiasts. Given what BMW has achieved reducing total mass of the M3/M4, I'm confident BMW will deliver some absolute reduction. The open question is what ballpark % reduction is "significant?" Thanks

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by cgm1978

CAFE standards for model year 2017-2025 cars sold here in America has forced all auto makers to prepare. BMW is doing this by introducing the B-series engines and hybrids.

Weight saving features like CRFP will allow the gas mileage to increase across the lineup. They also have to meet EU6 emission targets. Legislation is the cause of this.

Yes this is true. The warning shots have been fired , Manufacturers either have to adapt or die.

[pinoye90]

This is all because of one reason "GREED" it's never enough for corp companies. More more more while forgetting where more is coming from, the customers. If pricing keep rising but customers are still buying then take the responsibilities to produce products at all cost. Maybe corp mentality needs to change to survive, numbers fluctuate based on the economy it's all part of business as well as shrink/lost in revenue. There's this saying, the higher the monkey went up the latter the more it showed its ass

[ItsHectic]

Originally Posted by Qunadry

Keeping my 135i for as long as it does not become too expensive to maintain and repair. Then it looks like Hyundai or Kia. Why bother with an overpriced German Korean clone.

I had a dream a few nights ago I was at a Kia dealership about to buy a Kia but decided I couldnt because I had Korean people living in the neighbourhood and they know how shit Kias are.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by mdss6

I drove down for the first two public days of the Geneva show, with a request from one of my colleagues for a full report on the Active Tourer. However, for the public days both of the show cars were kept behind a wall, nose on to the public, and not even on a turning mount to see all sides. I appeared from a distance that the interior was indeed high quality. But there was no opportunity to evaluate space, driving position, or visibility. I left appropriate feedback. With the BMW reps, not my colleague, since I could tell him almost nothing useful. Luckily for me the cars I'm interested in were wide open for a good close inspection (even if the paint selections were poor).



This sounds very promising indeed. But I hope it will not be used to make bigger cars with more equipment that end up the same mass as their predecessors. There was previously lot of talk about reduced weight as higher end cars became increasingly aluminum intensive. But instead of absolute weight reductions, it became "comparably equipped" (and almost all the extra equipment was standard). Talk is that the CFRP intensive cars will have significantly lower overall mass. I really really hope that is true. If so, then that will be good news for enthusiasts. Given what BMW has achieved reducing total mass of the M3/M4, I'm confident BMW will deliver some absolute reduction. The open question is what ballpark % reduction is "significant?" Thanks

Did you ask the stand attendants to have a closer look?
They would have let you and shown you the features of the new car.
The Gran Tourer with extended wheelbase and seating for 7 will be unveiled in the next couple of months.

There will be another innovation day later this year which will show (essentially the new 7er) and the areas of weight reduction. BMW have also previously confirmed through Research and Development chief Herbert Diess that a 730d will weigh the same as the current 520d F10 model and that the new 7er will be the most technically advanced BMW to date.