[Tiago@VRSF]

Originally Posted by MTV

Personally, I'd rather have a modified 335i.

V2 Procede, H&R race springs + Koni Yellows, 19'' BBS LM's, LSD, Various cosmetic mods (aero lip, CSL trunk...), Vishnu Motive Exhaust.

I've thought long and hard about this and the 335 with the above setup will handle similarily if not better, should be faster in straight line and IMO will look nicer.

I don't mean to be cynical in any way but the m3 has a high revving v8 that makes a lot of power over a more broad range of the powerband. With the mods listed you'll be making a little less power than the M3 will make stock.

Suspension wise, comparing a M's suspention to H&R springs is a joke.

They make chassis modifications to remove body roll, completely replace the complete struts/springs, add better brakes and change the body style.

Then comes reliability, resale value and your warranty. The M3 was engineered to handle the 400hp it's putting down. The 335 was designed to make less power than the mods you specified, so not only are you putting more wear on your turbos/engine but you're also increasing the risk of voiding your warranty by modding. Resale value definitely takes a big toll since there are going to be less M3's produced and they will be in higher demand, the M3's value will stick much longer than any other 3 series PLUS the fact that when you modify a car they DEPRECIATE in value.

On the contrary you have to realize that you're not going to walk out the door with that base pricing so you have to compare apples to apples and build an M3 with the options you want and after all fees and costs are included you can have a decent comparison.

I'm not trying to talk anyone out of modding their 335i's because god knows I'll mod the hell out mine when I get rid of the 325, but those are just some points to consider.

[Game_Dev]

Originally Posted by tvieira24

I don't mean to be cynic in any way but the m3 has a high revving v8 that makes a lot of power over a more broad range of the powerband. With the mods listed you'll be making a little less power than the M3 will make stock.

Suspension wise, comparing a M's suspention to H&R springs is a joke.

They make chassis modifications to remove body roll, completely replace the complete struts/springs, add better brakes and change the body style.

Then comes reliability, resale value and your warranty. The M3 was engineered to handle the 400hp it's putting down. The 335 was designed to make less power than the mods you specified, so not only are you putting more wear on your turbos/engine but you're also increasing the risk of voiding your warranty by modding. Resale value definitely takes a big toll since there are going to be less M3's produced and they will be in higher demand, the M3's value will stick much longer than any other 3 series PLUS the fact that when you modify a car they DEPRECIATE in value.

On the contrary you have to realize that you're not going to walk out the door with that base pricing so you have to compare apples to apples and build an M3 with the options you want and after all fees and costs are included you can have a decent comparison.

I'm not trying to talk anyone out of modding their 335i's because god knows I'll mod the hell out mine when I get rid of the 325, but those are just some points to consider.

Agreed, a modded 335 will have more engine stress on it just to keep up with an M3. Plus in 5 years the M5 will still sell for high 30k to low 40k easy. A 335i modded will probably be 20k tops.

[MTV]

Originally Posted by tvieira24

I don't mean to be cynic in any way but the m3 has a high revving v8 that makes a lot of power over a more broad range of the powerband. With the mods listed you'll be making a little less power than the M3 will make stock.

Suspension wise, comparing a M's suspention to H&R springs is a joke.

They make chassis modifications to remove body roll, completely replace the complete struts/springs, add better brakes and change the body style.

Then comes reliability, resale value and your warranty. The M3 was engineered to handle the 400hp it's putting down. The 335 was designed to make less power than the mods you specified, so not only are you putting more wear on your turbos/engine but you're also increasing the risk of voiding your warranty by modding. Resale value definitely takes a big toll since there are going to be less M3's produced and they will be in higher demand, the M3's value will stick much longer than any other 3 series PLUS the fact that when you modify a car they DEPRECIATE in value.

On the contrary you have to realize that you're not going to walk out the door with that base pricing so you have to compare apples to apples and build an M3 with the options you want and after all fees and costs are included you can have a decent comparison.

I'm not trying to talk anyone out of modding their 335i's because god knows I'll mod the hell out mine when I get rid of the 325, but those are just some points to consider.

Points considered.

In terms of suspension, a 335i with H&R Race suspension, Koni Yellows will be stiff as anything. Add some nice thick sway bars front a rear and you'll definately handle better than the M3. So add sway bars to my list.

Also, we have 335's running in the 11's in the 1/4 mile. I'd say that's faster than the M3...

In terms of reliability and warranty, I wouldn't really care about it. Looking at it in that sense, the M3 is definately the better choice. However, I would just prefer doing the mods I like to a 335 and have similar if not better performance.

[djrobroe]

the good thing about those mods is they can be removed and sold... so it still keeps the residual value as if it were stock...

[MTV]

Originally Posted by djrobroe

the good thing about those mods is they can be removed and sold... so it still keeps the residual value as if it were stock...

Yup!

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by Rimola

lmao i laughed myself to sleep when i read that comment...i am having difficulty understanding why you are disturbed or why you would not be able to see the humor in it...

I have a pretty sick sense of humor and I am glad there are others out there.

Originally Posted by tvieira24

Suspension wise, comparing a M's suspention to H&R springs is a joke.

They make chassis modifications to remove body roll, completely replace the complete struts/springs, add better brakes and change the body style.

I think you hit the nail on the head on this point. I don't believe is snake oil / BMW M Magic but I do believe in the discipline that BMW has in tuning the suspension.

A major pet peeve of mine is people throwing suspension bits on the car without an end goal? Track performance, looks, just because?? If you are after performance, you need to have the discipline to do data logging and make the adjustments.

A suspension system is a balance of geometry, spring rate, dampening rate, anti-roll bar strength. Changing one element changes all. BMW has literally man-years spent into suspension tuning for the M3s and even the 335i's. Great balance between comfort and performance.

So I am little amused when people think they can just throw in suspension bits and outtune BMW..... No doubt a 335i can be tuned to handle as well as a M3 but I submit very few people on this planet outside of pro race teams have the discipline to make this happen.

[Kbueno]

The M is a totally different animal than the 335i....they both have their good and bad points. There is no denying, however, the extra tuning capability out of the turbo engine vs. the near to the limit V8. As far as reliability, both cars are too new to really comment, let's wait about 3-5 years and see.

With the options I want, the m3 will be near 60k vs. 46k for my 335i. 14k is too much.

[MTV]

Originally Posted by T Bone

I have a pretty sick sense of humor and I am glad there are others out there.




I think you hit the nail on the head on this point. I don't believe is snake oil / BMW M Magic but I do believe in the discipline that BMW has in tuning the suspension.

A major pet peeve of mine is people throwing suspension bits on the car without an end goal? Track performance, looks, just because?? If you are after performance, you need to have the discipline to do data logging and make the adjustments.

A suspension system is a balance of geometry, spring rate, dampening rate, anti-roll bar strength. Changing one element changes all. BMW has literally man-years spent into suspension tuning for the M3s and even the 335i's. Great balance between comfort and performance.

So I am little amused when people think they can just throw in suspension bits and outtune BMW..... No doubt a 335i can be tuned to handle as well as a M3 but I submit very few people on this planet outside of pro race teams have the discipline to make this happen.

I completely agree with your statement when someone just adds lowering springs to a car (and nothing else) and think they will out-handle anything. If this were the case, then I agree.

However, as I stated, I would add lowering springs and shocks stiff enough to dampen them. This wouldn't ruin the geometry of the suspension like stock shocks coupled with lowering springs would, because of the increased stiffness of the aftermarket shocks. Add front and rear sway bars into the equation and your formula adds up. Geometry, spring and dampening rates as well as anti-roll bars.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by 335lvr

The M is a totally different animal than the 335i....they both have their good and bad points. There is no denying, however, the extra tuning capability out of the turbo engine vs. the near to the limit V8. As far as reliability, both cars are too new to really comment, let's wait about 3-5 years and see.

With the options I want, the m3 will be near 60k vs. 46k for my 335i. 14k is too much.

$14K?? That is a good weekend with the boys in Vegas! Or you can have a piece of the legend

BTW, given the tuning of the S65 the M3 CSL should eek out 450hp. The S65 today has an "O" designation on the engine which means high output. The M3 CSL will have a "T" designation which means Top output. The big change should be the camshafts with associated ECU adjustments....the existing S65 engine favors low end torque way too much in sacrafice of top end performance.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by MTV

I completely agree with your statement when someone just adds lowering springs to a car (and nothing else) and think they will out-handle anything. If this were the case, then I agree.

However, as I stated, I would add lowering springs and shocks stiff enough to dampen them. This wouldn't ruin the geometry of the suspension like stock shocks coupled with lowering springs would, because of the increased stiffness of the aftermarket shocks. Add front and rear sway bars into the equation and your formula adds up. Geometry, spring and dampening rates as well as anti-roll bars.

Anytime you change suspension, you change weight transfer. So changing springs / roll bars / dampening rates can affect things like traction.

A little silly test, on my M6, I can launch the car harder with EDC in full soft mode versus sport mode. A little button can actually change how a car behaves.....imagine if you start playing with spring rates / roll bar stiffness.

Also, you instantly alter geometry lowering the car.

My point is that it is a system....

[Game_Dev]

Lets see, BMW Engineers tuning a car after millions of dollars of R&D or some hobbyist guy buying some $1,200 coil overs.

I'll take BMW engineering FTW.

[Rimola]

Originally Posted by T Bone

I have a pretty sick sense of humor and I am glad there are others out there.

BMW has literally man-years spent into suspension tuning for the M3s and even the 335i's. Great balance between comfort and performance. So I am little amused when people think they can just throw in suspension bits and outtune BMW...

i am glad as well...and you beat me to it with the suspension comment. BMW invests $$$, time, technology for the ultimate driving result. Engineers who make a living and spend years in developing better and mroe affordable products. call me crazy but i am going with BMW on this one

[MTV]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Anytime you change suspension, you change weight transfer. So changing springs / roll bars / dampening rates can affect things like traction.

A little silly test, on my M6, I can launch the car harder with EDC in full soft mode versus sport mode. A little button can actually change how a car behaves.....imagine if you start playing with spring rates / roll bar stiffness.

Also, you instantly alter geometry lowering the car.

My point is that it is a system....

With some nice sticky tires, traction shouldn't be a problem.

[MTV]

Originally Posted by Game_Dev

Lets see, BMW Engineers tuning a car after millions of dollars of R&D or some hobbyist guy buying some $1,200 coil overs.

I'll take BMW engineering FTW.

Not coilovers. Springs and shocks.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by Rimola

i am glad as well...and you beat me to it with the suspension comment. BMW invests $$$, time, technology for the ultimate driving result. Engineers who make a living and spend years in developing better and mroe affordable products. call me crazy but i am going with BMW on this one

Rumor has it that BMW has invested heavily in fart repellant leather.

Make sure you order the ZPFFT option.

[E90ice]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Walk away from the boards for a day and great discussions happen!

First of all, I am a little disturbed that Rimola is using my fart / cloth seat comment in his sig.

Second, I think BMW has effectively shocked the US market with its M3 pricing.....Bold.

I am not considering an M3 as I need the AWD of my 335xi but damn, it is going to be a tough choice for prospective 335i buyers. For a few dollars more and you can own an ///M.

A few sure things though:

• BMW is going to make the Lexus boys cry. Why buy an ISF? With the M3 pricing, there is no need for this car? Why would any sane person buy a fast Camry?
• RS4 - Goodbye. Maybe next time Audi will deliver a car that doesn't have a drivetrain that stiffles power like marriage stiffles love. Get your pricing in order too, you are just a fancy VW. Oh, please stop making cars that understeer into trees.
• Dinan Oil Coolers - Good luck Dinan.....your "value" just went out the window. If you sell more than 100 oil coolers, chalk that down as success.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Second, I think BMW has effectively shocked the US market with its M3 pricing.....Bold.

I am not considering an M3 as I need the AWD of my 335xi but damn, it is going to be a tough choice for prospective 335i buyers. For a few dollars more and you can own an ///M.

Isn't a few more dollars roughly 17k? Play that game again, and you're past a 550 headed to a M5. I don't think there really is a decision between the 335 and M3. Very different cars for very different pocketbooks.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by T Bone

$14K?? That is a good weekend with the boys in Vegas! Or you can have a piece of the legend

Or it's like two mortgage payments. I dunno about everyone else here, but two months mortgage is alot of coyne, especially given we lost a few hundred k on paper last year.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by John 070

Isn't a few more dollars roughly 17k? Play that game again, and you're past a 550 headed to a M5. I don't think there really is a decision between the 335 and M3. Very different cars for very different pocketbooks.

A lot closer than what some people first thought. As BMW adds more cars into the lineup, we should looked for more compressed pricing stacks.

We just need to know where to draw the line.....

[Doc E]

well if i configure a well optioned M3 with these:
Options are as follows (taken from Mpost)

ZCW Cold Weather Package $750
ZPP Premium Package $1900
ZTP Technology Package $3250
2MT 19" wheels $1200
507 Park Distance Control $500
M-DCT $2900 (rumored)
Moonroof-$1100
That comes to about $69,000

That's still $10k less then my car with mods, sure its an M but if you're talking about $/performance ratio, the 335 wins for me.

[Rimola]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Rumor has it that BMW has invested heavily in fart repellant leather.

Make sure you order the ZPFFT option.

OMG you are killing me...if you had friends like i did, this might be a reasonable consideration lol

[Game_Dev]

Just depends on what you want.

A modded 335i may be quick but it's not an M, and never will be. The 335i wasn't designed for performance mods and it puts wear on the engine prematurely not to mention the voided warrenty coverage.

The M is built for performance and, it's an M. Like Ferrari, or Lambos... sure a souped up Hemi Cuda could probably keep up in the straights, but the M is just a legendary name to own once in your life. This is my first "legend" car, so I'm excited about it's delivery soon.