[Shadow007]

Originally Posted by WedgePerformance

You can push them to 600 whp, but don't make assumptions about fueling as you'll end up short. TBI with Stage 2 with RR550/600's has shown to max out the Stage 2 LPFP.

Hmm...what about a stage 3 pump and tbi? I know a stage 3 lpfp and PI are ideal for what I want but if I can get almost the same results for less I would rather go that route.

[Brule]

Barometer? That can skew 30hp

[WedgePerformance]

Originally Posted by Shadow007

Hmm...what about a stage 3 pump and tbi? I know a stage 3 lpfp and PI are ideal for what I want but if I can get almost the same results for less I would rather go that route.

That's an option also. You need to also take into consideration fuel distribution is not perfect.

[Chris@BoostConcepts]

Originally Posted by WedgePerformance

That's an option also. You need to also take into consideration fuel distribution is not perfect.

take it into strong consideration!! this is an area that can hurt the motor so definitely not the place to try and shave pennies for the cheapest solution. motors are more expensive in the long run!

[Welterweight]

Originally Posted by Chris@BoostConcepts

take it into strong consideration!! this is an area that can hurt the motor so definitely not the place to try and shave pennies for the cheapest solution. motors are more expensive in the long run!

So are you guys saying TBI is a big gamble and a waste of money????

[DailyN54]

Originally Posted by Welterweight

So are you guys saying TBI is a big gamble and a waste of money????

I'm interested in knowing this as well. I would be afraid that one of the injectors for the PI system gets clogged that it might lean that cylinder.

[WedgePerformance]

TBI is not perfect by no means, but it keeps the HPFP from crashing. The biggest risk is the guys who run JB4 trying to use it with no lift shift. Great way to cause the manifold to pop. Bottom line, it works and if you have hybrids and want to run E50, it's that or Port Injection at 2 to 3x more.

[WedgePerformance]

Originally Posted by Chris@BoostConcepts

take it into strong consideration!! this is an area that can hurt the motor so definitely not the place to try and shave pennies for the cheapest solution. motors are more expensive in the long run!

Good point, but people are cheap.. and it's an option..

[Welterweight]

Well I for one am not cheap and really don't wanna hurt my motor. Sounds to me like TBI is not a smart choice for anyone?!

[Shadow007]

Originally Posted by WedgePerformance

Good point, but people are cheap.. and it's an option..

Neither am I compared to what I've already spent on this car. I was just trying to see if the TBI would be a suitable solution for at least a DD ~600 instead of PI.

WedgePerformance TBI is not perfect by no means, but it keeps the HPFP from crashing. The biggest risk is the guys who run JB4 trying to use it with no lift shift. Great way to cause the manifold to pop. Bottom line, it works and if you have hybrids and want to run E50, it's that or Port Injection at 2 to 3x more.

From a tuning perspective what would an e50 blend possible equate to hp/tq wise? I read from a previous post that our cars are good for about an e60 blend, which needs an hpfp upgrade, and anything beyond that it's not worth it. I'm not too sure how correct that was, but others at the time were commenting on it. Regardless, I will have to buy a new set since my current ones are done. At this point, I'm not sure if it's even worth going big with either the Hexon r700 or MMP stage 3 since the AT is limited or to just get another stage 2 set?

[Welterweight]

Originally Posted by Shadow007

Neither am I compared to what I've already spent on this car. I was just trying to see if the TBI would be a suitable solution for at least a DD ~600 instead of PI.

From a tuning perspective what would an e50 blend possible equate to hp/tq wise? I read from a previous post that our cars are good for about an e60 blend, which needs an hpfp upgrade, and anything beyond that it's not worth it. I'm not too sure how correct that was, but others at the time were commenting on it. Regardless, I will have to buy a new set since my current ones are done. At this point, I'm not sure if it's even worth going big with either the Hexon r700 or MMP stage 3 since the AT is limited or to just get another stage 2 set?

I think you mean upgrade LPFP for E60

I was running E60 on stock turbos and Stage 2 lpfp.

I am now running inlets, Hexon RR600's and was told to go to TBI for additional fueling. I am awd and auto and the car feels great. I figured TBI would make more room for fueling but don't intend to push crazy power or damage the car at all.

Now I'm a bit confused.....

[Chris@BoostConcepts]

Originally Posted by Shadow007

Neither am I compared to what I've already spent on this car. I was just trying to see if the TBI would be a suitable solution for at least a DD ~600 instead of PI. From a tuning perspective what would an e50 blend possible equate to hp/tq wise? I read from a previous post that our cars are good for about an e60 blend, which needs an hpfp upgrade, and anything beyond that it's not worth it. I'm not too sure how correct that was, but others at the time were commenting on it. Regardless, I will have to buy a new set since my current ones are done. At this point, I'm not sure if it's even worth going big with either the Hexon r700 or MMP stage 3 since the AT is limited or to just get another stage 2 set?

I should clarify, What I am saying is if you plan on pushing the envelop of the turbos I would not rely on TBI, it is a good option for those who may want to run at moderate power levels, but when you start having to fuel with significantly increased volume, the total mass of the fuel increases to a point that distribution becomes an issue. This is no knock on fuel it as they offer a quality product that fills a gap, this is merely a suggestion as to where that gap ends and PI becomes the more appropriate fueling strategy.

This issue is not N54 specific, The issue is the same on other platforms that used TBI as supplemental fueling. The product certainly has its place but If you are looking to fuel 600whp on 100% E85, I would suggest looking at their PI to ensure a safer cylinder to cylinder mass fuel balance.

If you really think about it, it isn't any different than trying to supplement fueling with meth injection for 600whp. As you might know that isn't a preached or practiced method because of its risks. I would follow the same guidelines when laying out your fueling planning.

I'm interested in knowing this as well. I would be afraid that one of the injectors for the PI system gets clogged that it might lean that cylinder.

There is no different risk of this happening then a HP injector clogging. in fact probably less as the pintles are smaller on the HP injectors. I believe that train of thought is getting into comparing fuel delivery design with component malfunction. One is dictated by choice the other is by circumstance. Proper fuel system maintenance and filter changes will help avoid diminishing injector flow or blockage. Not to mention it is a pretty rare occurrence and should be noted injectors in high performance applications will need maintenance over the course of their service life. There is a very good reason injector companies offer flow matching for big power applications.. we want each cylinder being fueled appropriately!

So are you guys saying TBI is a big gamble and a waste of money????

Absolutely NOT saying that. If we look at this in terms most will better relate with I think the implication becomes clearer... if you want to make 600whp.. do you try and push stock turbos there or do you upgrade to the appropriate sized turbo(s)? fuel systems are a function of performance just the same and should be appropriately sized. Methanol injection can safely add fueling to a point (not considering clogging issues), TBI can take it a little further, PI can take it even further.. its determining where you put the break points on those options that I refer too. Always best to use the right to for the job so to speak.

Chris

[Welterweight]

Awesome explanation! I am going TBI then as I want to keep the car a daily focused sleeper type. Thanks! Time to order

[Julian2485]

I just want 500awhp

[Welterweight]

Originally Posted by Julian2485

I just want 500awhp

599awhp for me. Gotta stay safe!

[Shadow007]

Originally Posted by Welterweight

599awhp for me. Gotta stay safe!

Haha...I'll be happy with that number...what's 1 more hp less?

This issue is not N54 specific, The issue is the same on other platforms that used TBI as supplemental fueling. The product certainly has its place but If you are looking to fuel 600whp on 100% E85, I would suggest looking at their PI to ensure a safer cylinder to cylinder mass fuel balance.

I was hoping I could get that type of power from some kind of E blend, using TBI...I guess not. As far as turbo choice, I'm still waiting for the MMP stage 3s to come out, not to take away from these, but the price is unmatched. So I'll wait until some additional info comes out along the lines of performance and fueling. Thanks for all the help! I will be hitting you up soon Wedge for a custom tune, once everything falls into place.

[WedgePerformance]

Originally Posted by Welterweight

Well I for one am not cheap and really don't wanna hurt my motor. Sounds to me like TBI is not a smart choice for anyone?!

Don't read into this too much. TBI works, and for your application it works well. PI is better and provides an even distribution of fuel. But both solutions have their shortcomings. Unless you want to spend $7500 for a Syvecs and a proTune so the ECU controls both the PI and DI, we'll live with the shortcomings and tune accordingly.

[Julian2485]

Originally Posted by WedgePerformance

Don't read into this too much. TBI works, and for your application it works well. PI is better and provides an even distribution of fuel. But both solutions have their shortcomings. Unless you want to spend $7500 for a Syvecs and a proTune so the ECU controls both the PI and DI, we'll live with the shortcomings and tune accordingly.

What would I need to hit 500awhp ?

[Julian2485]

Originally Posted by WedgePerformance

Don't read into this too much. TBI works, and for your application it works well. PI is better and provides an even distribution of fuel. But both solutions have their shortcomings. Unless you want to spend $7500 for a Syvecs and a proTune so the ECU controls both the PI and DI, we'll live with the shortcomings and tune accordingly.

What would I need to hit 500awhp ?

[Julian2485]

Originally Posted by WedgePerformance

Don't read into this too much. TBI works, and for your application it works well. PI is better and provides an even distribution of fuel. But both solutions have their shortcomings. Unless you want to spend $7500 for a Syvecs and a proTune so the ECU controls both the PI and DI, we'll live with the shortcomings and tune accordingly.

What would I need to hit 500awhp ?

[WedgePerformance]

Originally Posted by Julian2485

What would I need to hit 500awhp ?

Single turbo kit... or Stage 2 turbos with TBI and Stage 2 LPFP.

I honestly don't like questions like this. Assumptions are made with regard to what's required and someone will always try to contradict.

To back this up, don't go into modding your car blindly thinking that you can get by with a stage 2 pump and big turbos to make a lot of power. Play it safe and ensure you have more than enough fueling.

The potential is there, you just need a set of turbos and proper mods.

[Julian2485]

Originally Posted by WedgePerformance

Single turbo kit... or Stage 2 turbos with TBI and Stage 2 LPFP.

I honestly don't like questions like this. Assumptions are made with regard to what's required and someone will always try to contradict.

To back this up, don't go into modding your car blindly thinking that you can get by with a stage 2 pump and big turbos to make a lot of power. Play it safe and ensure you have more than enough fueling.

The potential is there, you just need a set of turbos and proper mods.

Ok so it's not attainable with stock turbos ?