[FogCityM3]

Except when they had the 1M coupes.

Originally Posted by Doctor///M

That's why all cars are equipped with DCT.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by igom3

+1
Im in insurance field(multiple companies) and like you said almost all of them exclude track use for liability and physical damage. They had wording before only for competition and timed events, but few years back they added using your car on any track surface including pits and surrounding areas. So before you think your insurance company will cover your car think twice. They are fiew insurance companies that would cover your car up to desired amount, but I don't know if they would cover non-owned cars such as BMW M school etc...

The fatal accident in CA with that Carrera GT put the nail on the coffin for coverage under personal auto policies even if it's not a competition event.

We use Lloyd's for our Motorsport and HPDE Schools. It's not inexpensive by any means (coverage is $90MM aggregate per car with 2 drivers included) but the premiums fluctuate between active use, transport, and storage. They've been very good to us even after Allen Simonsen's fatal crash at LeMans. I also have a personal multi national comprehensive policy with one of their other divisions for when I'm doing independent instruction but it excludes bodily injury and the separate coverage is insanely expensive. For that I keep an unrestricted surety bond that ends up costing less than 2 years of bodily injury coverage.

Here in the US, KIS Motorsport has opened an office and offers personal track day policies priced per day and vary depending on the policy limits and the track. They are the broker for Silverstone and Nurburgring coverage and have a stellar reputation.

[Blubaron79]

I would not worry about it. Just go have fun on the track. I really think it makes them not liable if you kill yourself, or wreck like a dick on purpose.

[igom3]

Originally Posted by miamiten

The fatal accident in CA with that Carrera GT put the nail on the coffin for coverage under personal auto policies even if it's not a competition event.

We use Lloyd's for our Motorsport and HPDE Schools. It's not inexpensive by any means (coverage is $90MM aggregate) but the premiums fluctuate between active use, transport, and storage. I also have a personal multi national comprehensive policy for when I'm doing independent instruction but it excludes bodily injury and the separate coverage is insanely expensive. For that I keep an unrestricted surety bond that ends up costing less than 2 years of bodily injury coverage.

Here in the US, KIS Motorsport has opened an office and offers personal track day policies priced per day and vary depending on the policy limits and the track. They are the broker for Silverstone and Nurburgring coverage and have a stellar reputation.

Good to know! Thanks

[igom3]

Originally Posted by punky8d

Thanks for sharing. Just ignore haters. lol

I know! I was just sharing what I've seen in the industry. That's all

[MSCD]

Insurance fraud puts everyone's premiums up - most insurers want to pay what they are 'contractually ' responsible for quickly, gets the liability off the books from a capital perspective. Lockton Motorsports is mentioned earlier in the thread.... This is also from Roundel

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by MSCD

Insurance fraud puts everyone's premiums up - most insurers want to pay what they are 'contractually ' responsible for quickly, gets the liability off the books from a capital perspective.

Lockton, the BMWCCA provider, is KIS Motorsport

I still find it hard to comprehend when someone would have an on track incident, have the car towed outside the track boundaries, then report the claim as an on road accident. Didn't take too long for adjusters to put the puzzle together.

[ORIGIN M.]

I'd sign their pathetic release, but they'd play hell ever getting my real policy number, if they tried to pull this crap on me. And, I'd never buy a new car from them ever again.

See a lawyer, you may have an implied warrantee case against BMW.

"Customer satisfaction is worthless, Customer loyalty is priceless"

-Jeffrey Gitomer

[desertfox73]

Originally Posted by bmwperson

so you'd rather have another government agency running your life?

People are responsible for their own decisions, if someone is stupid enough then so be it. Cant save everybody from everything.

OP: I can tell you that my insurance company (farmers) covers you as long as the event isnt timed. HPDE for example qualifies.

There already is a government agency requiring driving "capabilities", so no it's not another one...it would just be nice to have an effective one. It's shocking how little ability is required to actually drive a car. And how do you not realize that bad drivers aren't just a danger to themselves, they're a danger to everyone else on the road? Seriously? That's like smokers thinking they're the only ones at risk from the dangers of smoking. SMH.

[Face]

I did the 1-day M-performance school last fall - the waiver was presented (on an iPad) prior to the start of class. I wonder if a student were to refuse to sign if you'd be entitled to a refund?

That being said - I was a little apprehensive at first as this was my first time on a track and first time in an M car. The instructors were really good about building up your confidence and ensuring that safety was always the priority. They wanted you to hone your skills, be safe, and never really pressured anyone to go faster than they were comfortable.

I like other people responding, got the opinion that if there was an incident they only really cared that you were OK. I believe they told us that mechanical/body damage was handled in-house and if I recall correctly was done by BMW as training.

I'd purchase insurance if it was available, however at the prices being charged by BMW some reasonable level of liability coverage should be provided. I just did European Delivery for the second time and I believe the insurance we received had a limit of some crazy amount line 100 million euros in liability protection.

All that being said, you'd have to be an absolute moron or willingly negligent (playing bumper cars) to be at any significant risk at the 1-day M-school (I can't speak for the Advanced). Most of the events were low speed (<50-60 mph) and spaced out in a way that the worst you could do is spin off the track in a corner. The riskiest event was the lapping session where you got up to 100+ on the back stretch and had to contend with catching slower drivers. The instructors were quick to send people into the "pits" to build space as necessary.

However, bringing this to BMW's attention may get some clarity on the issue. I wouldn't mind seeing it as a set amount of coverage except for intentional acts or gross negligence.

Also - if you read through your policies close enough you'll find many instances where you may have gaps in coverage, not even on the track. Again - as someone previously stated it's good to have a more broad umbrella in that place to mitigate exposure.

[raysspl]

LOLLL

[mrduder]

I did thermal last year and we had insurance for the day. they actually went over that when we got there.

[zosoboogie]

I buy HPDE trackday insurance through Lockton mostly for track days at Sebring


http://locktonmotorsports.com/event/...8c49dfa27/9212

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by raysspl

LOLLL

You don't say.

[N & M]

Isn't amazing that no one from the manufacturer or driving school side has come forward to state a clear message or comment about this matter?

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by Face

I did the 1-day M-performance school last fall - the waiver was presented (on an iPad) prior to the start of class. I wonder if a student were to refuse to sign if you'd be entitled to a refund?

I received an email reminder for my registered event and there was a link in the email to read the waiver. They were very understanding of my objections and refunded without protest. If your first opportunity to read it were the day of the event, I would expect they would do the same. If they gave you access to the waiver beforehand and you didn't read it, I would expect more of a struggle.

Originally Posted by zosoboogie

I buy HPDE trackday insurance through Lockton mostly for track days at Sebring

http://locktonmotorsports.com/event/...8c49dfa27/9212

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Lockton only provides insurance to people using their own car. Is anyone aware of a provider that insures you when using event-provided cars instead of your own?

Originally Posted by N & M

Isn't amazing that no one from the manufacturer or driving school side has come forward to state a clear message or comment about this matter?

If you look at the waiver (a link to which I included in post 33) you'll see there isn't much that needs clarification. If you sign the waiver, you acknowledge you are responsible for damage and have insurance coverage. The fact they haven't held people responsible doesn't change the clear legal document you sign. So it is a participant judgment - don't sign / don't participate or sign / rely on low probability of an accident or being held responsible in an accident.

[Mandi90TT]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

If you look at the waiver (a link to which I included in post 33) you'll see there isn't much that needs clarification. If you sign the waiver, you acknowledge you are responsible for damage and have insurance coverage. The fact they haven't held people responsible doesn't change the clear legal document you sign. So it is a participant judgment - don't sign / don't participate or sign / rely on low probability of an accident or being held responsible in an accident.

To be fair, the fact that they haven't held people responsible in the past sets a bit a legal precedent that a good lawyer might be able to use in court. I wouldn't bet my life savings on it, however.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Except when they had the 1M coupes.

...and E39 M5s and Z4Ms.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by Dave 90TT

To be fair, the fact that they haven't held people responsible in the past sets a bit a legal precedent that a good lawyer might be able to use in court. I wouldn't bet my life savings on it, however.

I don't necessarily disagree, but am not willing to personally accept that risk. If there were insurance available that allowed me to actually comply with the terms of the agreement, I would have signed it in a heatbeat and bought the insurance. I also don't think waivers provide much protection to BMW in the absence of proof of insurance, so the whole thing doesn't make much sense to me. My personal choice is to avoid signing agreements that don't make sense to me or where I can't comply with the terms to which I agree. A day of fun just isn't worth it to me. Many, many others have just signed it and not worried about it, which is fine for them.

A source from which to purchase insurance would solve the problem for everyone IMO.

[zx10guy]

I wonder how things would play out if you video recorded the instructor(s) telling you you're not liable for any damages (ie NYC....not your car.)

As I stated,in my previous post, the track school I go to where the school and BMW have a clear partnership leaves no ambiguity on how liability is being handled. But the way they do it makes it reasonable for you not to worry about having insurance as your liability is capped at a certain amount and billable to your credit card. The way this track school is run, the instructors along with the track support staff, mostly prevents any crashes from happening. But you do get the occasional bone head that despite the on track coaches and the corner workers regulating what is happening on track will get themselves or involve another student/riding coach in an incident.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Face

That being said - I was a little apprehensive at first as this was my first time on a track and first time in an M car. The instructors were really good about building up your confidence and ensuring that safety was always the priority. They wanted you to hone your skills, be safe, and never really pressured anyone to go faster than they were comfortable.

I like other people responding, got the opinion that if there was an incident they only really cared that you were OK. I believe they told us that mechanical/body damage was handled in-house and if I recall correctly was done by BMW as training.

Without question, the programs BMW runs at the Performance Center are outstanding. If you've had three decades of track experience, four of autocross, and have instructed since the mid-80s, it's not the place to go for fine tuning skills, but for 99.9% of the population it's an exceptional experience. The instructors, many of which I know pretty well, are also exceptional and do a fantastic job with a wide range of drivers.

15 years ago when my son turned 15, he had only had his learner's permit for a few months when I sent him to the one-day teen school. When he was 17 I sent him for the two-day teen school as a refresher. Same with my daughter on a two years later schedule. Both of them ended up doing autox and HPDEs, etc, and we also went back to the PC about 9-10 years ago for the M-day CCA events a couple of time which we incredible fun.

I've never heard of anyone being held liable for damage, and I recall seeing one student totally ruin a clutch in an E39 M5 (smoke everywhere) due to complete incompetence at driving a manual -- which is probably why there are no longer any manual cars at the PC since the vast majority of people today do not know how to properly drive one (if at all).

Back on the umbrella policy of a minute -- be careful with those and your assumptions. You need to carefully read it and map it all out to understand when it will and will not work. For example, if you have a policy from NC, if you incur a major liability event on a track at an HPDE, the umbrella won't help. You're only covered for the first $32k of liability, and the umbrella won't be triggered since it only comes into effect once you reach the limits (usually $500k) of the policy. All of this is going to be tested in court soon (the lowered liability limit) from my understanding due to an incident last year that resulted in an instructor death at an HPDE.

[tibookM3]

Originally Posted by evanevery

I don't know where this info is coming from but it is somewhere between misleading and absolutely incorrect...

I have attended (and still attend) the BMW schools quite often. Both in the U.S. and in Europe (Germany). I have witnessed several accidents at these schools. This includes an M5 sliding offroad into a wall (blowing all airbags) at VIR during a wet braking exercise, an M3 into the front straight wall at Road Atlanta after a high speed mis-negotiation of turn 12, and an M4 rear ending a group of two other M4's at the Ring (3 cars involved - one of which I was in the passenger seat).

In NONE of these events were the students held financially liable for the cars. I know all the drivers involved (some better than others), and no one was billed for any damages. In fact, the students were given replacement vehicles to finish the training once they were checked out and medically cleared (if it was required).

BMW does their very best to help try and minimize damages of any kind but these things do happen and they fully understand that. However, if the event occurred because the student had done something due to a careless or reckless attitude, then I believe BMW might have a different position on the matter, but I've never witnessed that. In fact, the European waiver even specific identifies liability (2500 euro max) if it was reckless/careless.

So, I'm not sure of where this is coming from, but I do 2-3 Advanced Schools a year and I've NEVER heard of anyone actually billed for damages to any vehicles - and I've seen a few...

Anyone know of someone who was actually held liable for vehicular damage at a BMW driving school? If so, what were the details of the event?

Slight correction, the German BMW policy is 2500 euro max if the damage was only deemed slight driver's negligence. You buy the car if you did something stupid.