[beto_L.A.]

Originally Posted by David70

Warranty is a program where they fix things that break for some amount of time and miles. I don't believe this changed.

Maintenance Plan is an agreement where for some amount of time and miles they do what is required to keep your vehicle running properly (maintain the vehicle by their recommendations). This changed.

On my current 2015 428i GC:
4 Years or 50k miles
Brake service:
Pads and rotors are covered.
If I get the 2018 GC:
3yrs. 36k miles
BRAKES & ROTORS
are no longer replaced under warranty.
I'm in the US and that was the best warranty program of any brand.

[bmw-again]

So December sales are down but they takeaway loyalty credit for January it doesn't make sense. You would think rebates be higher if sales are down.

[InsideMan]

Originally Posted by beto_L.A.

On my current 2015 428i GC:
4 Years or 50k miles
Brake service:
Pads and rotors are covered.
If I get the 2018 GC:
3yrs. 36k miles
BRAKES & ROTORS
are no longer replaced under warranty.
I'm in the US and that was the best warranty program of any brand.

You'll be fine. Have you ever needed brakes? Exactly my point.

BMW found they were more often performing maintenance on cars that were bought at auction and ending up at little luxury corner lots. There is a lot more to selling cars than pleasing the .00001% of forum bros.

In the end, it's their product and their goals and objectives. If they don't meet them, something will change. They want more people to lease. They want more people to rotate out of cars. You don't want to play that game? Leave. Change brands. ??

[InsideMan]

Originally Posted by bmw-again

So December sales are down but they takeaway loyalty credit for January it doesn't make sense. You would think rebates be higher if sales are down.

Is there a car you are working a deal on and the dealer can't make the deal? They are $1000 away and if the Loyalty credit were to be available, you would have made the deal? I agree, the stinks. Sorry to hear that.

Oh, wait...

[lawgone]

Originally Posted by bavarian19

Sales slump had to be expected at some point when you keep offering less car for more relative money. I would still be shopping for a 3 if I felt I was getting something a little special for a respectable price. I am still baffled by a $50k mildly optioned 328.

I agree. My 2014 335i lease ends in a couple months and while I've considered a 4GC it's still the same problem...they leave too many options out that should be standard, or at least standard with premium or M sport package. I mean, no backup camera unless you pay like $3000 for a drivers assistance package? If you want what's standard on lower tier non-luxury brand cars you're looking at a $60k USD 340i with a very plasticy interior and so-so driving dynamics.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by bavarian19

Sales slump had to be expected at some point when you keep offering less car for more relative money. I would still be shopping for a 3 if I felt I was getting something a little special for a respectable price. I am still baffled by a $50k mildly optioned 328.

I agree as well. I was looking around on my dealer's website in Charlottesville the other day. While it is a small dealership and connected to BMW of Richmond, I was astonished when I saw the prices of the current F30s they had in stock. Not exotic by any means, all with automatics of course, all were $50K+. No thanks. Too many other cars have caught up to BMW, some of it because BMW has moved backwards towards luxobarge designs (while Cadillac has moved to lightweight great handling cars).

And for Christ's sake BMW, figure out a way to offer a naturally aspirated in-line 6 with a manual transmission in a lightweight chassis. It doesn't need to have 500 horsepower with 16 M badges all over the place. How about going back to the lightweight spaceframe/plastic panel design of the Z1 that you copied from GM? In the late '80s that was supposed to be the new chassis design direction BMW was supposed to go. An N52 in a 2,800 pound chassis would be nice.

[Brake_Late]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Not sure if you are serious, but the roadster and coupe were discontinued over a year ago.

What's staggering to me (as I've mentioned before) are Clubman sales. If only other manufacturers could convince that many people to buy a "wagon" instead of an SUV.

I wouldn't know. Mini Cooper has NEVER interested me...in any way.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by jpnh

Look at VW sportwagon sales in the US.....those things are EVERYWHERE...the demand is there...

The Sportwagen is another one that has been a stand-out in the past, but the numbers have been sliding for the past five years. You still see them out there but sales of the newest model, the Golf Sportwagen that was introduced for MY2015, have not been hot. And that was before the diesel scandal broke which certainly hasn't helped - as much as 90% of them were diesel in the past. The new Alltrack will probably take another chunk too. In fact, I could see it taking over completely in the next five years, like the Audi allroad eventually did for the A4 Avant.

[bubbs]

I think BMW has to look themselves in the mirror. They want to appeal to everyone and they have diluted the brand and appeal to no one. Lack of manuals, electric steering, price, packaging requiring purchasing things you don't want to get things you do. Non transferable maintenance coverage (plus reducing the items covered). I have a 335 and an X1. 335 is the finest driving car I have ever owned. If I didn't have a warranty to 100k miles, I'd be broke. It kills me to say it but I'm buying a new car in the next 5 weeks. BMW is not on the list. Going to drive a Land Rover and Jag this afternoon. They need to wake up.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by bubbs

I think BMW has to look themselves in the mirror. They want to appeal to everyone and they have diluted the brand and appeal to no one. Lack of manuals, electric steering, price, packaging requiring purchasing things you don't want to get things you do. Non transferable maintenance coverage (plus reducing the items covered). I have a 335 and an X1. 335 is the finest driving car I have ever owned. If I didn't have a warranty to 100k miles, I'd be broke. It kills me to say it but I'm buying a new car in the next 5 weeks. BMW is not on the list. Going to drive a Land Rover and Jag this afternoon. They need to wake up.

Why further develop further manuals when the market itself is showing they are dying. Manufacturers cannot base these decisions on the handful of customers that are expected to buy them especially within a volume model.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

The Sportwagen is another one that has been a stand-out in the past, but the numbers have been sliding for the past five years. You still see them out there but sales of the newest model, the Golf Sportwagen that was introduced for MY2015, have not been hot. And that was before the diesel scandal broke which certainly hasn't helped - as much as 90% of them were diesel in the past. The new Alltrack will probably take another chunk too. In fact, I could see it taking over completely in the next five years, like the Audi allroad eventually did for the A4 Avant.

For Geneva there are plans for a Concept Car VW Golf SUV model so when that comes its Adios to the Sportwagon and welcome the possibility of the Mexico (Or USA) built SUV equivalent.
BMW currently have a Sportwagon and they still will in the future but its called the X3 and its more reflective to the American market in which is demanded and by the consumer wanted.

[jpnh]

IDK

I think BMW at least in the US is demonstrating an effort to appeal to a variety of people

the 2 series is a great example of this

M series speaks for itself

3 series was wildly successful for many years......due for a bit of work to freshen it up

the X series has wide appeal to the SAV crowd

IDK......I think as long as BMW sticks to designing the each series to appeal to a distinct segment and they prevent cross pollination of things that are good for the X series but are fucking retarded on a sports car (fuel economy guage on 2 series instead of temp guage for example) then they are good to go

I'm also of the belief that they should get rid of the free maint and bring the price down......do a free first oil change and offer a solid warranty and thats it.

If you want to offer an OPTIONAL maint plan thats fine

Oh, and BTW.....not offering manual transmission options across the range even as a special order when its avail in the UK/Germany is also retarded

I bought a 2 series because I wanted a drivers car.......dont let the marketing douches turn it into a rolling living room

[c63er]

Originally Posted by bubbs

I think BMW has to look themselves in the mirror. They want to appeal to everyone and they have diluted the brand and appeal to no one. Lack of manuals, electric steering, price, packaging requiring purchasing things you don't want to get things you do. Non transferable maintenance coverage (plus reducing the items covered). I have a 335 and an X1. 335 is the finest driving car I have ever owned. If I didn't have a warranty to 100k miles, I'd be broke. It kills me to say it but I'm buying a new car in the next 5 weeks. BMW is not on the list. Going to drive a Land Rover and Jag this afternoon. They need to wake up.

This is a very real issue that bmw doesn't see coming right at them. There's a wonderful piece on how large corporations fail and it outlines this similar scenario. Where the bedrock on which a conpany stands is eroding but they don't see it since they are looking up at the clouds. Something to that effect.

I too recently passed up on buying a bmw. Friends and family were shocked. I'm sure there is a ripple effect to that when they know even I won't buy a bmw anymore. Why should they.

You see this across the forums. Something bad is brewing for bmw and they continue to be tone deaf. And now scott has picked up the habit of making inflammatory and racist posts which I'm sure the core of bmw enthusiasts do not appreciate. Add that to the list next to numb steering, no na, no manuals. Just great.

[InsideMan]

Originally Posted by c63er

This is a very real issue that bmw doesn't see coming right at them. There's a wonderful piece on how large corporations fail and it outlines this similar scenario. Where the bedrock on which a conpany stands is eroding but they don't see it since they are looking up at the clouds. Something to that effect.

I too recently passed up on buying a bmw. Friends and family were shocked. I'm sure there is a ripple effect to that when they know even I won't buy a bmw anymore. Why should they.

You see this across the forums. Something bad is brewing for bmw and they continue to be tone deaf. And now scott has picked up the habit of making inflammatory and racist posts which I'm sure the core of bmw enthusiasts do not appreciate. Add that to the list next to numb steering, no na, no manuals. Just great.

The forum community makes up very little sales.

How many other manufactures have gone away from a manual transmission?

From reading all these posts, it seems like the forum community is made up of white-collar, salaried employees. Nothing wrong with that and it is well respected, however, they aren't business owners. The comments are reflective of the truth. (Yes, there are some business owners and entrepreneurs on here. Not the majority though.) Having said that, you don't know what it takes to run a business. It's easy to sit on the sidelines and make suggestions when you really have no clue how it really works. I liken it to watching a football game and complaining when your team runs the ball instead of throwing it. Absolutely worthless conversation.

[DF]

If guys from forums ran a car company they would be out of business in a year

[bavarian19]

As the previous owner of 3 BMWs, I hope BMW gets their act together. Due to family needs, I sold my last BMW for a 2014 Highlander that admittedly is an appliance of a car.

However, for 35k out the door, I get leather, navigation, rear view camera, equivalent of comfort access, heated seats.

How are these items not standard on every BMW offered?

Driving dynamics and excitement are totally missing, but it's an SUV and our family needs a reliable, safe appliance to take on long drives. BMW has some serious competition when it comes time for replacing our other car.

[DF]

I don't think this is totally a BMW issue. All three big German car makers nickle and dime people. They are expanding the m sport line which should keep enthusiasts happy. Of course it's what Audi has been doing and Mercedes just started doing. Are they good value? Probably not. But most fun cars aren't. Appliances are good value. as are crossovers. Americans want crossovers. Not sporty sedans. I will say I am thrilled with my m235

[c63er]

Originally Posted by InsideMan

The forum community makes up very little sales.

How many other manufactures have gone away from a manual transmission?

From reading all these posts, it seems like the forum community is made up of white-collar, salaried employees. Nothing wrong with that and it is well respected, however, they aren't business owners. The comments are reflective of the truth. (Yes, there are some business owners and entrepreneurs on here. Not the majority though.) Having said that, you don't know what it takes to run a business. It's easy to sit on the sidelines and make suggestions when you really have no clue how it really works. I liken it to watching a football game and complaining when your team runs the ball instead of throwing it. Absolutely worthless conversation.

Originally Posted by DF

If guys from forums ran a car company they would be out of business in a year

I used to believe that.

Then I remembered when ferrari was saved by montezemolo who ran it with a ferrari enthusiast pov. Then I remembered Bob lutz who saved how many companies with his enthusiast perspective. Then I remembered audi made a come back from its history of un intended acceleration to a premier German brand because it shifted to enthusiasts with the a4. Then I remebered Mclaren came back out of obscurity because it made the most focused road race cars you could get. Then I remembered alfas return to the USA was only made possible with cars like the 4c and now giulia. The list goes on.

Yea your probably right. Enthusiasts probably aren't important.

But in all seriousness. Once you remove the enthusiast aspect from a bmw and a BMW had to compete based solely on quality, feature content and horsepower then bmw will loose. Car industry is way to competitive and their are plenty who offer exactly the same tech a BMW has for a lot less.

If bmw really wants to shift away from enthusiasts it better get serious about it and make a car as bulletpoof as a Toyota and back it with a 15 year warranty to capture the I just want a box that goes from a to b crowd. Otherwise things will go south for them.

[DF]

Originally Posted by c63er

I used to believe that.

Then I remembered when ferrari was saved by montezemolo who ran it with a ferrari enthusiast pov. Then I remembered Bob lutz who saved how many companies with his enthusiast perspective. Then I remembered audi made a come back from its history of un intended acceleration to a premier German brand because it shifted to enthusiasts with the a4. Then I remebered Mclaren came back out of obscurity because it made the most focused road race cars you could get. Then I remembered alfas return to the USA was only made possible with cars like the 4c and now giulia. The list goes on.

Yea your probably right. Enthusiasts probably aren't important.

But in all seriousness. Once you remove the enthusiast aspect from a bmw and a BMW had to compete based solely on quality, feature content and horsepower then bmw will loose. Car industry is way to competitive and their are plenty who offer exactly the same tech a BMW has for a lot less.

If bmw really wants to shift away from enthusiasts it better get serious about it and make a car as bulletpoof as a Toyota and back it with a 15 year warranty to capture the I just want a box that goes from a to b crowd. Otherwise things will go south for them.

Eliminating Super cars from that list most of it isn't true. BMW has moved away from it for the most part. It's competing with Audi and merc. There will always be niche enthusiast derivatives but they are the profit centers. Crossovers are. They don't Ned to be bullet proof because of the prestige brand. People will pay for it.

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by DF

If guys from forums ran a car company they would be out of business in a year

Depends on which guys from which forums but to your point, chances are that you're correct....or at least they would build one hell of a car for about a year.......

[DF]

Originally Posted by jpnh

Depends on which guys from which forums but to your point, chances are that you're correct....or at least they would build one hell of a car for about a year.......

:rofl. Very true

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by DF

:rofl. Very true

I would LOVE to have one of those cars......but warranty work past 1-2 months will be a bitch