BMW M sales exec says dual clutch, manual transmissions on their way out

GrussGott · 04-23-2017, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

And the march against manuals continues.

not completely ....

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkoesel

It seems to me that the real issue is scalability. As torque goes up, the planetary box scales better. The DCT and manual seem to require incrementally heavier, more costly components and materials at steeper rate than the planetary transmission does.

It's this.

It's a misread to think they're saying "it cannot be technically done" what they're saying is:

We need a *platform* transmission we can build on
It must not raise the unit cost by more than $X
It must meet customer's needs for performance and comfort

As you move towards higher horsepower the dual-clutch setups aren't smooth as well as being relatively expensive, heavy and requiring large packaging. I think BMW and others are looking at this and seeing it's not a viable platform; not because of the engineering, but the overall product. We have bimmerpost threads about how "jerky" the DCT is now.

And mass production aren't the only ones: hypercars (at least pagani) are moving into the single automated clutch (AMT) direction like from Xtrac which I suppose would be an automatic sequential manual transmission meaning it's a manual transmission clutch and gear set with a computer controlling the clutch.

PAGANI

The Huayra BC features a 7-speed AMT (Automated Manual Transmission) developed from scratch and represents a new benchmark in this transmission technology. The gearbox, developed and manufactured by Xtrac, features a new electro-hydraulic actuation system and new carbon fibre synchronizers, designed to increase the precision of gear engagement and further reduce gearshift times. The clutch control program has also been heavily revised, allowing greater accuracy, despite the increased torque of the engine.

xander_g · 04-23-2017, 12:13 PM

It's like they're purposely trying to push away their loyal client base. Very sad.

The Automotive Enthusiast · 04-23-2017, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ric in RVA

If you haven't driven a ZF 8 speed it really is amazing. One of the only auto transmissions I have ever driven that remotely comes close to being acceptable.

The shift quality is amazing, the down shifts even more so.

BMW uses a ZF locked into shiftable manual mode on some of its race cars.

The biggest reason manual will go away? Auto braking.

If the feds mandate auto braking there is no way to down shift a true manual to keep the car capable of operating in an auto braking mode. (without getting into some SMG bs)

And of all the self driving car things coming auto braking will be one of the first to be implemented as it has huge potential for safety.

Please note I don't agree with where it is going and will always choose a manual over an auto, but it is going this way.

So get em while you can!!!

I'm pretty sure everyone here has driven the ZF 8 speed. It's literally in every BMW.

It's also in every Jaguar, VW, Audi, Bentley, Chrysler product.

M3 Adjuster · 04-23-2017, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BM Creeper

Stop fighting over which is the best between manual and dual-clutch transmissions; both of them might soon be gone.

Quote:

http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/b...rticleResults8

BMW M-Division: Dual-clutch gearbox dead on water

And the days looked numbered for manual transmission too.

The passenger-car transmission war will ultimately be won by the conventional, torque-converter automatic, according to BMW's M division.

And M's vice-president of sales and marketing, Peter Quintus, has given both the conventional manual and the double-clutch transmission just a handful of years to live.

When questioned by Drive on the subject of transmission technology and how it relates to the BMW version of the double-clutch, the DCT, Quintus' response was a surprising one.

"It's more a question of how long has the DCT got to go," he said. "How long will it last?"

Having already predicted the end of manual transmissions in the next six or seven years, Quintus confirmed that he believed we would all soon be making a return to the torque converter automatic.

"We are now seeing automatic transmissions with nine and even 10 speeds, so there's a lot of technology in modern automatics," he said.
"The DCT once had two advantages: it was light and its shift speeds were higher.

"Now, a lot of that shift-time advantage has disappeared as automatics get better and smarter."

Interestingly, Quintus' view that the conventional manual is also doomed is not based solely on emissions. Instead, it's a case of being able to make a manual gearbox strong enough for the super-torquey new generation of engines. He said about 450 horsepower (335kW) and 600Nm was more or less the limit of manual-gearbox durability. Beyond that, he said, durability couldn't be guaranteed.

So why not just shop somewhere like the USA for a manual transmission that can cope with the output of big, burly V8 engines?
"We looked at US gearboxes. We found they were heavy and the shift quality was awful," he said.

"I'm not even sure the next generation of M3 and M4 models from BMW will have the option of a manual gearbox.

Could someone please tell Quintus (And perhaps you OP ) that a DCT *IS *an automatic?

RPiM5 · 04-23-2017, 12:20 PM

Pretty much sums it up for me.

Downeaster1 · 04-23-2017, 12:20 PM

The damn manuals are the only deciding factor for me between the M3 and the C63. If the next M3 doesn't have a stick, I'm tossing my F80 keys to Mercedes.

The Automotive Enthusiast · 04-23-2017, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xander_g

It's like they're purposely trying to push away their loyal client base. Very sad.

What does their loyal fan base want, exactly? If it's lighter and faster-shifting cars, than, I don't see what the problem is. I've probably said this over 1,000 times on these forums. 95% of BMW clients do not track these cars and would be hard pressed to even notice how fast the transmission is shifting because they're too busy driving in bumper to bumper traffic going to the gym, work or home.

It makes sense. Does it suck? Yup. But the conventional auto has gotten better and better as technology has progressed.

ah3nyc · 04-23-2017, 12:22 PM

Bmw seems to be taking away too many things. Hydraulic steering, dct, manual, loyalty, msd, incentives. I'm sure they think this will benefit sales.

6ixSpd · 04-23-2017, 12:22 PM

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

yousefnjr · 04-23-2017, 12:22 PM

There goes m3's USP

SDPLV · 04-23-2017, 12:22 PM

Let him know that if manual & DCT go...his job will go with it!

PRUVEIT · 04-23-2017, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ric in RVA

If you haven't driven a ZF 8 speed it really is amazing. One of the only auto transmissions I have ever driven that remotely comes close to being acceptable.

The shift quality is amazing, the down shifts even more so.

BMW uses a ZF locked into shiftable manual mode on some of its race cars.

The biggest reason manual will go away? Auto braking.

If the feds mandate auto braking there is no way to down shift a true manual to keep the car capable of operating in an auto braking mode. (without getting into some SMG bs)

And of all the self driving car things coming auto braking will be one of the first to be implemented as it has huge potential for safety.

Please note I don't agree with where it is going and will always choose a manual over an auto, but it is going this way.

So get em while you can!!!

Don't understand the auto-braking limitation...

I have a manual M4 and the auto braking has intervened before, so if this is mandated across the board why would that regulation negatively impact manual cars?

JP

zamboni · 04-23-2017, 12:24 PM

It's sad that BMW is no longer offers DCT for future models, so far I'm pretty happy with my E93 M3 DCT.

The Automotive Enthusiast · 04-23-2017, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrussGott

I love the M-DCT, and think it's perfect for the M4 (both control, feel, and speed, and I only drive it manually), but I understand people who'd like a smoother transmission.

This has been AMG's argument for the MCT: way smoother, way more capable, and in the latest iteration, just as fast as a DCT with a new 9 speed coming out.

It's an interesting case from a dork perspective: wet start-up clutch pack like a motorcycle, then individual clutches on each of the 4 planetary gear sets for "double de-clutching":

The newest iteration in the AMG C63 does a damn good job of copying a double-clutch, too.

M3 Adjuster · 04-23-2017, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zx10guy

If BMW continues their tradition of half assing DCT implementations, I say good riddence to DCTs. And this is from my own personal experience with the DCT in my 135i as well as others who have echo'd my experience of unacceptable throttle lag and lurching/jumping of the car while having your foot on the brake.

However, I would lament the demise of the manual transmission. Had I had a choice of getting a manual, I would have one now.

It's pretty clear what their intent is.... kinda of the point of the thread.

Most of the German manufacturers have been attempting to drive the manual transmission out of the market.

It's led to a revolt over at Porsche who has begun making manual only vehicles that have sold out.

BMW has been attempt to eliminate the manual by making their top cars DCT only and stating (read: dictating to the market ) that the manual take rate is low. Looks like the DCT flavor of automatic is now in their sights, along with the manual gearbox.

evolution80 · 04-23-2017, 12:28 PM

well, the future generation cars will probably restrict and control our driving anyway...

prevent speeding, overtaking etc.

maybe even to a point where fines will be deducted from your account or your licence suspended ala fifth element

that said the f80 i have on order will probably be the last car i am willing to spend a lot of money on

Bluesummer · 04-23-2017, 12:31 PM

There's always PDK

Noelified · 04-23-2017, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrussGott

eh, it'll be fine, whatever. The C63 already has a planetary gear wet clutch pack set up that's very close to a dual clutch box and, for example, the Huayra has a planetary set. By the time development is done everyone will be praising how technologically awesome it is and/or we'll all be driving electrics anyway.

I, for one, welcome our new massive torque overlords!

Agree 100%

RACEM4TE · 04-23-2017, 12:45 PM

Evo compared M-DCT to the PDK and the ferrari dct in their M3 vs C63 Review. Why would you dump a transmission this good?

BoosTonian · 04-23-2017, 01:01 PM

I don't think it's the fact that the dct shifts faster that aggravates me about an getting rid of it..it's the way it feels and reacts.

Driving a regular 8 speed feels "normal"..not special. Even when I drive the camaro ss, sure it's shifting fast but it doesn't clunk, bang the gears, have a mechanical feel/sound to it.

The mdct has always had that roughness to it that kept reminding you that you're not driving a "normal" BMW, that it was special. That's why porsche opts to continue improving and finding ways of bettering the pdk...it makes up the cars character.

I'm disappointed in this decision by M, but I'm not surprised as M has morphed into BMWs puppet. I loved my f80 dct, and I love BMW manual trannys, a lot of people will venture away cuz of these decisions.

GioM3 · 04-23-2017, 01:08 PM

I understand when M's vice-president of sales and marketing says demand is less and less for manual cars, because people buying BMWs for different reasons: Fuel economy, badge, comfort and so on. But what I DON'T understand and WONT accept, that i don't get choice of driving pleasure with manual gearbox, there's more to driving, then quick shift, fuel economy and comfort.

BDO · 04-23-2017, 01:08 PM

Lol, bmw can get fscked and go on selling their boring cars to the Chinese and soccer moms, which is clearly the only market they care about.

Time to get into a 911.

04-23-2017, 12:13 PM	#68
xander_g Major 1074 Rep 1,161 Posts Drives: G30 M550i Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: Toronto iTrader: (2) Garage List 2018 BMW M550i Xdrive [0.00]	It's like they're purposely trying to push away their loyal client base. Very sad.
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04-23-2017, 12:20 PM	#71
RPiM5 Major General 3178 Rep 7,941 Posts Drives: Black M5 Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Earth 616 iTrader: (0)	Pretty much sums it up for me. __________________
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04-23-2017, 12:20 PM	#72
Downeaster1 BMW Master Tech 592 Rep 852 Posts Drives: Bunch of leaking water pumps Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: SoCal iTrader: (0) Garage List 2017 BMW M3 [0.00] 2015 Aston Martin V ... [0.00] 2010 Lamborghini LP ... [0.00] 1985 Alpina C2 2.7 [0.00] 2017 BMW M3 [0.00] 2008 BMW 128i [10.00] 2013 BMW 135is [0.00] 1992 BMW 325i [0.00]	The damn manuals are the only deciding factor for me between the M3 and the C63. If the next M3 doesn't have a stick, I'm tossing my F80 keys to Mercedes. __________________ 135is #502 of 586 BMW LED Performance Wheel \| OEM FULL Carbon Fiber \| E9X M3 Gauge Cluster \| E9X Exterior Mirrors \| E9X M3 Full Suspension \| E9X M3 Diff \| PT-CAN2 Enabled \| Bilstiens \| Michelin PSS's \| NBT Navigation Retrofit with Touch Pad
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04-23-2017, 12:22 PM	#74
ah3nyc Private First Class 118 Rep 136 Posts Drives: 2016 BMW 340 M-sport xdrive Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: nyc iTrader: (0)	Bmw seems to be taking away too many things. Hydraulic steering, dct, manual, loyalty, msd, incentives. I'm sure they think this will benefit sales.
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04-23-2017, 12:22 PM	#75
6ixSpd Save the manuals! 6068 Rep 6,764 Posts Drives: '16 M3, '23 718 Spyder Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: 416 iTrader: (4)	Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah __________________ '16 M3 \| '23 718 Spyder Past: E92 M3, F87 M2, E39 M5, etc
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04-23-2017, 12:22 PM	#76
yousefnjr salty cowboys fan 6922 Rep 3,685 Posts Drives: ‘06 Z4MR, ‘20 X7, ‘22 M4x Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Bay Area, CA iTrader: (2)	There goes m3's USP
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04-23-2017, 12:22 PM	#77
SDPLV Major 494 Rep 1,003 Posts Drives: 2008 E90 M3 DCT Silverstone II Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Las Vegas iTrader: (1) Garage List 2008 BMW M3 [0.00]	Let him know that if manual & DCT go...his job will go with it! __________________ Current: 08 E90 M3 DCT SSII w/ BE RB Swap, H8 Lux 180s, MS Drop-in AF, CF spoiler, CF diffuser, OEM CF leather trim, CF DCT paddles, Custom DCT flatbottom wheel, MirrorTap 9500ix, RockAuto rotors, Hawk HPS pads, AMS ECU 93 Oct Map Tune, GTS DCT update, Slambo custom undertray
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04-23-2017, 12:24 PM	#79
zamboni I want to drive a Zamboni 1190 Rep 5,610 Posts Drives: 13 E93 M3 18 F80 M3 16 K71 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Monte Sereno, CA iTrader: (7) Garage List 16 K71 F800GT [10.00] 2018 F80 M3 [10.00] 2013 BMW E93 M3 [10.00]	It's sad that BMW is no longer offers DCT for future models, so far I'm pretty happy with my E93 M3 DCT. __________________ 18 F80 Imola Red 6MT 16 K71 F800GT Montego Blue 13 E93 M3 Melbourne Red 2000 E46,2006 E90,09 E82,13 E93 328i,14 F30 335i,18 F80 M3 My next vehicle would be a Zamboni
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04-23-2017, 12:28 PM	#82
evolution80 Captain 146 Rep 697 Posts Drives: M3 F80 silverstone Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: austria iTrader: (0) Garage List 2017 M3 F80 [0.00] 2010 bmw e92 xdrive ... [10.00]	well, the future generation cars will probably restrict and control our driving anyway... prevent speeding, overtaking etc. maybe even to a point where fines will be deducted from your account or your licence suspended ala fifth element that said the f80 i have on order will probably be the last car i am willing to spend a lot of money on __________________ if you're cast on thin ice, you may as well dance enjoy your cars
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04-23-2017, 12:31 PM	#83
Bluesummer Lieutenant General 591 Rep 15,816 Posts Drives: slower than Ayrton Senna Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: SoCal iTrader: (15) Garage List 2017 BMW X5M [0.00] 2015 M4 [0.00] 2011 E82 135 [0.00] 2011 M3 [0.00] 2007 335 [0.00]	There's always PDK __________________ IG:d.violet.m3
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04-23-2017, 12:45 PM	#85
RACEM4TE Banned 373 Rep 243 Posts Drives: S63 AMG COUPÈ, Mclaren 675LT Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Abu Dhabi iTrader: (0)	Evo compared M-DCT to the PDK and the ferrari dct in their M3 vs C63 Review. Why would you dump a transmission this good?
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04-23-2017, 01:01 PM	#86
BoosTonian Lieutenant Colonel 778 Rep 1,498 Posts Drives: 2017 MB C63 S AMG Coupe Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Boston, MA iTrader: (2) Garage List 2017 INFINITI Q60 S ... [10.00]	I don't think it's the fact that the dct shifts faster that aggravates me about an getting rid of it..it's the way it feels and reacts. Driving a regular 8 speed feels "normal"..not special. Even when I drive the camaro ss, sure it's shifting fast but it doesn't clunk, bang the gears, have a mechanical feel/sound to it. The mdct has always had that roughness to it that kept reminding you that you're not driving a "normal" BMW, that it was special. That's why porsche opts to continue improving and finding ways of bettering the pdk...it makes up the cars character. I'm disappointed in this decision by M, but I'm not surprised as M has morphed into BMWs puppet. I loved my f80 dct, and I love BMW manual trannys, a lot of people will venture away cuz of these decisions. __________________ 2017 MB C63 S Coupe - DINAN \| MODAL WORKS retired: GranTurismo MC, Giulia Quadrifoglio, B8.5 RS5, Q60 RedSport, e82 135, F80, e92 M3, e90 M3, (2) e92 335, B8 S4, C209 CLK55 AMG, e46 330
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04-23-2017, 01:08 PM	#87
GioM3 Private First Class 182 Rep 111 Posts Drives: BMW M3 e92m Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: London UK iTrader: (0)	Manual I understand when M's vice-president of sales and marketing says demand is less and less for manual cars, because people buying BMWs for different reasons: Fuel economy, badge, comfort and so on. But what I DON'T understand and WONT accept, that i don't get choice of driving pleasure with manual gearbox, there's more to driving, then quick shift, fuel economy and comfort.
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04-23-2017, 01:08 PM	#88
BDO Lieutenant 281 Rep 538 Posts Drives: 2016 X6 40d M-sport Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Citizen of the World iTrader: (0)	Lol, bmw can get fscked and go on selling their boring cars to the Chinese and soccer moms, which is clearly the only market they care about. Time to get into a 911.
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