[Jeff@Eurobahn.us]

Your statement insinuates that tuners are some how able to see into the future. This technology is changing all the time. For one of us to say that your vehicle will never throw some code that is not yet programmed into the diagnostic system as of today would be stupid.

But you already knew that. Which is why you said it.

For the most part the Tuners I have met and heard about from this board and others are pretty good guys. Most of us out here are also enthusiasts who love cars and want our customers to have a great experience. There are certain companies for example who don't do things quite right but from my experience they are the exception.

Everyone will test their stuff out to the best of their individual ability as they can.

Jeff
Eurobahn

[oc24]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Again, see who steps up to the plate legally....

I will boldly predict the tuners will actually need to add a provision in their contract / agreement with their customers that they CANNOT guarantee undetectability.

Once they do this, how is your confidence now?

Well legally while the contract would help, you can still sue based on equitable grounds of their implied promise of invisibility. But then again you realize you would be suing them for their inability to help you commit fraud, as their failure to be untraceable prevented you from violating BMW's warranty policy.

Actually, if I was a tuner there would be no way I would even imply such a provision.

[Calgary Agent]

Originally Posted by Jeff@Eurobahn.us

Your statement insinuates that tuners are some how able to see into the future. This technology is changing all the time. For one of us to say that your vehicle will never throw some code that is not yet programmed into the diagnostic system as of today would be stupid.

But you already knew that. Which is why you said it.

For the most part the Tuners I have met and heard about from this board and others are pretty good guys. Most of us out here are also enthusiasts who love cars and want our customers to have a great experience. There are certain companies for example who don't do things quite right but from my experience they are the exception.

Everyone will test their stuff out to the best of their individual ability as they can.

Jeff
Eurobahn

Jeff - nobody is picking on you *or other tuners* in particular (at least I'm not). I'm sure you're all great guys ... simply trying to make a living.

What has been pointed out is that statements made on an enthusiast's forum won't hold much water if / when BMW decides to void a warranty. Many of the people on this forum are inclined to read no further than ".... our tune is invisible". They should be aware this might not be the case (now, or in the future).

Fact is, if I didn't have a Dinan tune, I likely would have been inclined to try one of the various piggyback tunes currently available. That is, until we all found out about the counter-measures BMW is now instituting ....

[e.n335]

I am happy that I updated the complete software of my car in February 2008. Now I will try to avoid further updates until all tuners fixed the v29.2 issues. I'm not clear how long it will take and have the impression, currently not all of the tuners really know what these issues are, so I guess it's hard to fix them. However, I will be able to use the current tuning solutions until the new releases for v29.2 / DME v81 are out. And you can be sure, the tuners will come up with solutions.

BTW, I really miss the support of our BMW master techs in this tuning detection methods discussions.

[oc24]

Ironically, if Dinan cracks the MSD81, whose purpose it seems to be targeted largely at preventing flashes, they will reap the most benefits if that will be the only safe tuning option (i.e. piggybacks can't get around MSD81). Talk about biting you in the ass, BMW will have increased Dinan's profits exponentially.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by Jeff@Eurobahn.us

Your statement insinuates that tuners are some how able to see into the future. This technology is changing all the time. For one of us to say that your vehicle will never throw some code that is not yet programmed into the diagnostic system as of today would be stupid.

But you already knew that. Which is why you said it.

For the most part the Tuners I have met and heard about from this board and others are pretty good guys. Most of us out here are also enthusiasts who love cars and want our customers to have a great experience. There are certain companies for example who don't do things quite right but from my experience they are the exception.

Everyone will test their stuff out to the best of their individual ability as they can.

Jeff
Eurobahn

Jeff, my point with raising the ante is that people want to believe they are fine, we know there is substantial risk.

There are many people on this board really want to believe their tune is OK, almost a wilful blindness. And as a loyal member of this community, I would be remissed if I didn't call this out.

I know that tuners will never make this representation but the language on this board comes awfully close.

Personally, I think you product is the best of the lot but that isn't going to mean much to someone with a "warranty gone" code.

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by slubu

Ironically, if Dinan cracks the MSD81, whose purpose it seems to be targeted largely at preventing flashes, they will reap the most benefits if that will be the only safe tuning option (i.e. piggybacks can't get around MSD81). Talk about biting you in the ass, BMW will have increased Dinan's profits exponentially.

That's one scenario. The other is Jim Conforti implements correctly. He seems to have excellent information sources.

However, I am very curious how piggybacks will integrate, beside flying below the radar ( which is not really a solution ).

[lawdude]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Jeff, my point with raising the ante is that people want to believe they are fine, we know there is substantial risk.

There are many people on this board really want to believe their tune is OK, almost a wilful blindness. And as a loyal member of this community, I would be remissed if I didn't call this out.

I know that tuners will never make this representation but the language on this board comes awfully close.

Personally, I think you product is the best of the lot but that isn't going to mean much to someone with a "warranty gone" code.

As many times as you've pointed out the risk, I don't think you have any worries about being "remissed".

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by lawdude

As many times as you've pointed out the risk, I don't think you have any worries about being "remissed".

Sorry for the grammar error.

Keep reading sunshine....people are going to continue to make partial representations and eager believers will remain blind.

[e.n335]

BTW, the Attaché works the 3rd day now with progman v29.2 and the DME v80. The car has been driven hard already. No issues up to now. We will get an update soon.

This does not say the Attaché is invisible but it says that the v80 DME still works with progman v29.2 and ( probably most ) piggybacks.

[Jeff@Eurobahn.us]

Originally Posted by e.n335

BTW, the Attaché works the 3rd day now with progman v29.2 and the DME v80. The car has been driven hard already. No issues up to now. We will get an update soon.

This does not say the Attaché is invisible but it says that the v80 DME still works with progman v29.2 and ( probably most ) piggybacks.

Eugen, I am not sure what you are waiting for.

The car is not going to prevent the Attache from working. It is going to log any and all boost and fuel target data that is out of acceptable margins set by BMW. That might be brought up to the customer out of hand or nothing will be said unless something breaks on the car and then they will pull the FASTA data file off the ISIS computer and say no dice to warranty repair.

Jeff
Eurobahn

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by Jeff@Eurobahn.us

Eugen, I am not sure what you are waiting for.

The car is not going to prevent the Attache from working. It is going to log any and all boost and fuel target data that is out of acceptable margins set by BMW. That might be brought up to the customer out of hand or nothing will be said unless something breaks on the car and then they will pull the FASTA data file off the ISIS computer and say no dice to warranty repair.

Jeff
Eurobahn

AFAIK the DME v81 IS preventing tunes from working.

[oc24]

Originally Posted by e.n335

AFAIK the DME v81 IS preventing tunes from working.

If this is true, this is great news. I prefer it giving a clear sign of not working, rather than being ignorant.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by e.n335

AFAIK the DME v81 IS preventing tunes from working.

Eugene, I think you need to spend some time and read the posts... V81 is working with the tunes but we have no idea if V81 alone or V81 in conjunction with CIP 29.2 is doing tune detect. Nor do we know how if it did.

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Eugene, I think you need to spend some time and read the posts... V81 is working with the tunes but we have no idea if V81 alone or V81 in conjunction with CIP 29.2 is doing tune detect. Nor do we know how if it did.

Wow - thanks for the update.

[mjd]

Originally Posted by slubu

Ironically, if Dinan cracks the MSD81, whose purpose it seems to be targeted largely at preventing flashes, they will reap the most benefits if that will be the only safe tuning option (i.e. piggybacks can't get around MSD81). Talk about biting you in the ass, BMW will have increased Dinan's profits exponentially.

Originally Posted by e.n335

That's one scenario. The other is Jim Conforti implements correctly. He seems to have excellent information sources.

However, I am very curious how piggybacks will integrate, beside flying below the radar ( which is not really a solution ).

The other scenario... BMW preparing for the launch of their own flash (as roumored). The news that the 135 tii will be available with a quoted 350hp indicates the possibility. Will it be offerred for the 335? only as part of the ZSP or individually for already sold vehicles?... time will tell.

[Numb3rs]

Originally Posted by e.n335

BTW, the Attaché works the 3rd day now with progman v29.2 and the DME v80. The car has been driven hard already. No issues up to now. We will get an update soon.

This does not say the Attaché is invisible but it says that the v80 DME still works with progman v29.2 and ( probably most ) piggybacks.

Eugen, lets not confuse two distinct issues.

• One being BMW's ability to store separate codes that do nothing, until a separate stand-alone program at their dealerships collects those codes and if certain ones are prevalent, will issue a flagging.
  
• The other is a hardware mist match, with the new DME81 and whether or not the hardware has physically tossed the current piggybacks a curve ball.

While any Piggybacks might be working with the new progman update... it doesn't matter.... if 3 months from now, BMW tells you they have significant data to void your warranty.

DME81 (or newer) might be a twist in wires or a new voltage variable that will physically hinder the correct operation of piggies. Along with a new encryption scheem to hinder re-flashes.



I don't think anyone with the MSD80 is worried about whether their piggyback will work, they are wondering if they will now get caught!

[Robertbog]

My father used "skinny" for the same purpose today... I thought of this thread.

[Neema]

what if i went back into the service bay garage and talk to the techs working on my car, like i usually do, and they enjoy. . . . and told one of them "hey, I'll put a 100 bucks under the floor mat if you just dont do the V81 or 29.2 updates to the car. . . .but list them as done. No one will know and I promise to keep it between us, but please man. . . Im a student and cant afford that stuff to go down bro"

[Neema]

i've already bought my SA a gift and a card. . . . thinking about buying him some NBA tickets, but it's play offs time. . . . and those tickets are $$$$.

[satinghostrider]

madarfucking chod 29.2. I think those sons of bitches are gonna flash mine cause of the ticking noise!!

[lndshrk]

Originally Posted by Boost_Nation

what if i went back into the service bay garage and talk to the techs working on my car, like i usually do, and they enjoy. . . . and told one of them "hey, I'll put a 100 bucks under the floor mat if you just dont do the V81 or 29.2 updates to the car. . . .but list them as done. No one will know and I promise to keep it between us, but please man. . . Im a student and cant afford that stuff to go down bro"

If it were only that simple.

Your car is connected to a diagnostic head - the head connects (usually
wirelessly) to the local diagnostic or programming system - which is then
networked into BMW AG's network.

1984 is now.

Jim