[Nikolas]

The other aspect performance wise that is pretty impressive is the car's size. It is competing with the 5 series for size with performance comparing to 3 series.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

Again your comments regarding the deficiences of AWD are baseless.

OK, if you say so.
There is a reason every sports car come with RWD, not AWD.
Same goes with race cars.

Do yourself a favor, research a bit about performance cars before making a statement that my statements of AWD are "baseless"
Or better yet, drive sports and performance cars, not 6 years of AWD SUV as the basis of your argument.

I have owned AWD performance cars, and while good for traction, they don't work as good as RWD cars for pure high performance driving.
That isn't "baseless" as you SUV drivers think, it's fact.

I don't know of a AWD version of ANY car where the RWD version isn't lighter, faster, and will post better times around a track.
That's not taking away from AWD. A car designed around AWD platform can be AWESOME. The Nissan GT-R is an example.

Sure the AWD Acura was the fastest around that track, but that "test" was as biased and lopsided as it gets.

Take an independent track with stock cars that weren't "supplied" and "set up" by the company that is trying to prove something and rest assured, that Acura TL will most likely get beat.
That's not to say the Acura won't do well. It may very well be fast and be underrated for power.
it should as a 3.7 liter with 306 hp doesn't add up since everybody else make 300-306 hp with 3.5 liter engines these days, and Honda/Acura knows how to make HP.

AWD has one great advantage....traction especially at lower speeds and/or out of corners. However, after that it's handicaps become apparent.
That is weight and extra drivetrain losses.
Just the added weight alone slows and affects everything, from acceleration, to steering to braking. You can't add 250 lbs to the weight of a car and expect it to brake as well, accelerate as fast or steer/react as quickly.
It also throws off weight distribution in most applications
Those are hardly "baseless" claims, but more accurately proven facts.

Oh, further more, just because someone is a "pro" driver for a company doesn't mean they drive ALL the cars. They have numerous "pro" drivers for each manufactuer. Some drivers are better than others with certain cars.
They will have their best driver with each platform drive.
The Acura driver was clearly most comfortable with AWD applications.
You can call that a baseless claim too if you'd like, but I've known two pro drivers for car manufacturers, one still works for BMW and drove for Car and Driver in the past.

But again, if you want to believe AWD is as good as RWD for true sports driving and/or track racing, feel free, nobody is stopping you. But know that if you can ask as many pro race drivers as you please if AWD is as good for race driving as RWD.... 99.5% will tell you no. Again, their is a reason race cars and sports cars are RWD.

I do like AWD. The Nissan GT-R is the best example of a current AWD car.
Not sure if it's programmed to shift 100% of it's power to the rear wheels only at a certain speed, but if not, it should.
And it should do it at around 75 mph.
That would give it it's awesome launching ability and power out of corners ability, but also give remove the drivetrain losses at speed.

Take care. Whew, sh1t that was a long post, sorry.

[Driver72]

I hope that several of the car magazines test this new TL (a production one, not one that could of been "beefed" up for this marketing "test" that Acura themselves set up) again with the RWD cars (that weren't supplied and prepped by Acura) on an independent track (like Laguna Seca or Virginia International Raceway) and we'll see how it really compares.
Or better yet, I hope BMW counters with an open offer to Acura to bring the car to an independent track and take on the 3 series again with BMW's drivers in the 3 series cars.

That would be awesome.

[Nikolas]

Driver 72: Just because my wife has an MDX doesn't mean I don't have or have driven performance cars. Give me an f'n break. Obviously I have a 335xi which I consider to be as much of a track car as a 335i - ie stock they are NOT.

I say baseless because unless someone tests identical cars (suspension, tires) with the exact RWD vs AWD configuration then there is no definitive proof. Your comment about the test being unfair is exactly why I commented on your post. If it was so unfair then how the heck can you possibly conclude from this test the AWD is lesser than RWD?

FYI I have a carrera 4 that will completely toast a 335i on the track. It has less HP, but it will outhandle it in a heart beat. I have tracked several cars many times at Laguna Seca, Infineon and RFR over the past 4 years. On just about every track day there was a good combination of different drivetrains. More often than not the advanced groups had very aggressive track times in the AWD cars. I think that given a driver familiar with AWD and not afraid to really stomp on the exit will easily be on par with RWD.

Maybe you should try a little research and see how many performance cars actually do have AWD (maybe have a look at the 9 second Gallardo in this forum) And maybe research why you don't see many AWD cars in F1 and European Touring. There is a reason and if you actually do some research you will find the answer. (hint it was not because AWD was inferior).

Why don't you ask Gary Sheehan what he thinks.

There is no question that the added weight of the AWD system affects performance. In my humble opinion that is overcome by the ability to increase your exit speed. This new system and any AWD that has a true Rear LSD, negates the understeer issues. Heck simply increasing the diameter of the front sway bar on my tack prepped STI made that car an incredible performer on the track - even with my crappy driving skills.

So like I said, RWD is not better than AWD.

[H0v07]

nice facelift

[Nikolas]

Nice edit Driver 72. That was a painful re-read. I'm amazed that you edited my basis of history with AWD from driving an SUV to 6 years of driving an SUV.....Ouch! Maybe re-read my post, maybe not. I guess it is best to agree to disagree. No biggie.

peace.

[TheAcAvenger]

I feel the love in this thread.

[Nikolas]

My apologies. I didn't mean for it to get heated like that. After all were talking cars and not world peas.

[Year's_End]

Well after the debate settles down about which system is better at a track by about 2%, just remember that in terms of sheer fun, RWD cannot be matched.

Not being able to control a car's cornering attitude with throttle inputs ftl.

[stressdoc]

Kudos to Honda for providing an excellent manual.

But this comparo is a fraud.

Honda's track. Honda prepped the cars. Honda chose the options on each. Honda changed the brake pads on all of them 'to make things equal' (????). Honda puts 19" 245 Michelin PS2s on the TL but neglects to equalize this critical component -- good for at least 1-2 secs if we are to use TireRack's tests as a basis. Honda sets the tire pressures. Honda wines and dines a select few journalists. Etc. Make no mistake, the TL SH AWD is not even close to being a viable attempt at a poor-mans GT-R. Nor is it in the same league as a proper 335i. Kids in stoplight wars will like it, except they won't get the manual anyway.

Other links, same mantra, same heavy load of Honda advertising:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=7120
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-ar...&page_number=1
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...eview/(page)/1

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

Nice edit Driver 72. That was a painful re-read. I'm amazed that you edited my basis of history with AWD from driving an SUV to 6 years of driving an SUV.....Ouch! Maybe re-read my post, maybe not. I guess it is best to agree to disagree. No biggie.

peace.

The edit part was adding in the stuff about the Nissan GT-R, that's it.

There have been plenty of tests in the past with the AWD version of a car and the RWD versions....guess which one performs better on the tracks in those tests? Even in this test, I'll bet only Acura's AWD ace driver is the only one who got a better time on the xi than the i of the BMW.
But it's all good, no biggie.

They're both great cars and without a doubt AWD has a purpose.
I believe it was Saab who started to add a bigger (or more powerful version) of their engines in their AWD versions of their cars to compensate for the extra weight and drivetrain losses of AWD.
Acura has now also done this with the TL too (as the AWD version gets the 3.7 liter and the FWD version gets the 3.5.)
I'm sure more car manufacturers will follow suit (or should) then there won't be a such a difference between AWD and RWD performance between their cars. Maybe BMW will do that with future cars. And not raise the xi versions up on higher suspensions.
That would make a big difference too.

[Nikolas]

I would love to see some of those tests. I'm just curious because the one's I have seen don't actually compare identical cars with different drive lines. I remember Top Gear did one, but all the cars were from different manufacturers. I would love to see a real test between identical cars. The only one I remember which I can't find was one comparing a G35x to a G35s on an autocross course and the X was actually faster. Drivetrain loss is much less of a concern these days - just look at the xi dynos. The weight distribution becomes more of a problem to overcome. I think the xi is around 185 lbs more which is a lot. I think the biggest disadvantage the xi has is the suspension setup and not the driveline. BMW will be utilizing a system similar to the Acura system very soon. I hope they expand it to the 3 series instead of just the X6 as is currently planned.

[ManMachine]

Of course we'd all take the comparison with a grain of salt, especially since the car isn't even released yet. But the whole point is that Acura provided relatively well equipped competing vehicles and journalists were free to try on their own.

The point about tires - since the PS2 is an option for the Acura TL, while others in stock don't come equipped like that, to a certain degree this is only fair. I don't know if people get to check the tire pressure, but I doubt Acura will deflate the tires of other makers. That kind of action if got caught will totally destroy its credibility.

Acura's main point is trying to keep the public interested in the performance version of the car, and trying to say that for its price, for its size, its offering is quite a competent vehicle that could stand toe to toe against the competition. The styling is still a big strike, but maybe that would change. I understand that Acura is trying to become a tier 1 automaker to compete against Lexus, BMW etc. From their track record of NSX and S2000, I think they could make some pretty good cars if they are determined. That kind of competition is good for us the consumers.

[MTV]

This comparo is similar to that A4 add where they chose the best A4 and the shittiest competitors.

They slapped on all the best options on the TL and ran it against the base versions of the competition.

marketing ftl

[flyinggonzo]

It's a paid advertising piece. I'm pretty disappointed Edmunds posted the article.

I've stopped reading US auto journalism for a while now - very fanboish for new vehicles, and generally poorly written.

I like EVO and while they'll take manufacturer sponsored events, they are never afraid to point out what they're truly thinking.

[badfish]

You can make something super ugly but fast and sell it. Just look at the GTR...

[BK]

Originally Posted by MTV

They slapped on all the best options on the TL and ran it against the base versions of the competition.

I don't think so. Take a look at the C&D article.

[MTV]

Originally Posted by BK

I don't think so. Take a look at the C&D article.

C&D? We're talking Edmunds in this thread....

[BK]

Originally Posted by MTV

C&D? We're talking Edmunds in this thread....

We're talking both. C&D has more details:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...01#post3380401

[Nikolas]

Yes it was the same event attended by all the magazines. All cars were driven by all representatives of each magazine. It is interesting to read each article from the different perspectives. They all agreed that the new TL is ugly but performs excellent with all drivers able to get the fastest lap times out of the TL. 2 seconds is a lot - at least 1 second can be attributed to the tires though.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

I would love to see some of those tests. I'm just curious because the one's I have seen don't actually compare identical cars with different drive lines. I remember Top Gear did one, but all the cars were from different manufacturers. I would love to see a real test between identical cars. The only one I remember which I can't find was one comparing a G35x to a G35s on an autocross course and the X was actually faster. Drivetrain loss is much less of a concern these days - just look at the xi dynos. The weight distribution becomes more of a problem to overcome. I think the xi is around 185 lbs more which is a lot. I think the biggest disadvantage the xi has is the suspension setup and not the driveline. BMW will be utilizing a system similar to the Acura system very soon. I hope they expand it to the 3 series instead of just the X6 as is currently planned.

Yes there was a test with a G35 and G35x I don't remember which either, but IF it was on an AUTOCROSS course, it wouldn't surprise me if the X did a bit better, since autox courses are generally very low speed 20-70 mph and full of tight turns where the AWD can power out of earlier.

Again, you can choose to believe that somehow magically the law of physics and and friction and so forth is somehow not an issue anymore and that AWD cars can distribute the power over twice as many wheels, many more friction causing, power robbing drivetrain parts and not lose any more power. Again, you are absolutely free to believe that.

But, if I were you I wouldn't go betting your house that if you took the average 335xi and the average 335i with the exact same amount of weight in them (meaning adding 243 lbs to the 335i) that the 335xi could keep up with the 335i with the additional 243 lbs in a rolling race from 40-130 mph.
You'd lose your house.

I wouldn't also try to write a report of any kind explaining to a science professor or expert that the laws of physics doesn't apply to the AWD cars anymore and that the AWD cars don't lose anymore (or very little) engine power turning 4 wheels and the extra drivetrain components than a RWD car.

Lastly, I don't know where you get your numbers from but suddenly now you think the xi is only 185 lbs less than the i??

Do yourself a favor, go to BMWUSA.com
Look at the spec sheet for the 335i Coupe and then the 335xi Coupe.

Or to save you a bit of time, here's what it says:

335xi Coupe
3814 lbs manual
3825 lbs auto

335i Coupe
3571 lbs manual
3582 lbs auto

Do the math, either way it's 243 lbs.

Clearly you choose to believe the 335xi somehow doesn't weigh 243 lbs more, that it somehow magically belies the laws of physics in all regards (acceleration, braking, steering, and even drivetrain losses).
And that's fine if you want to believe that, you are free to do so. Just like there are people who are free to think GW Bush was a great (or even good) President.

One last thing, here is a quote from Car and Driver ( I think it's safe to say they're experienced in the difference between RWD and AWD in performance cars):
"if you perceive all-wheel drive as a performance enhancement, you're likely to be disappointed. In almost any sedan application you care to name, all-wheel drive adds mass.... and it either provokes or aggravates understeer, the tendency for the car to resist steering inputs as speeds increase."

Take care.

[Driver72]

Hmm, C&D posted another interesting point.
It was Acura doing the "timing" of all the cars too.
Interesting how that worked.

So on top of not inviting each car manufacturers own professional drivers to set up and drive their own cars, they didn't want to go to an independent track, and didn't want independent time keepers.

Yeah that sounds "fair and balanced". LOL