[David70]

Originally Posted by chassis

Yes, agree. I like the way Porsche has entered the SUV and EV segments, compared with the way MB has done it. The Macan and Cayenne in my opinion carry the Porsche DNA well.

With MB, the GLE does an adequate job, and possibly the GLS. MB owners debate the credibility of the GLS as the "S-Class of SUVs". It's not.

The GLC is so-so.

The GLA and GLB are horribly cheap, share a platform with another brand (GLA) and do not carry the MB brand DNA. It's another example of MB's downward spiral into model proliferation and and starving their core models of investment because resources are being siphoned into EVs. MB's reliability was never what people thought it was, and today is it worse and headed in an unfavorable direction.

MB is harvesting the cash cow which is their brand, by hollowing out formerly very good models and introducing entry level models that are simply the least bad offerings in their segments. Porsche on the other hand seems to be navigating their product portfolio fairly well.

With Porsche being VW owned they have no reason to try to go after the low end of the market. MB doesn't have the same options.

Also add the GLA came out in 2013 in Europe which means they probably started designing it 4 years earlier? They only decided to start sending it here relatively recently and they have been in lower end markets for a long time, far before they worried much about EV's.

[chassis]

Originally Posted by David70

With Porsche being VW owned they have no reason to try to go after the low end of the market. MB doesn't have the same options.

Also add the GLA came out in 2013 in Europe which means they probably started designing it 4 years earlier? They only decided to start sending it here relatively recently and they have been in lower end markets for a long time, far before they worried much about EV's.

Agree. So Porsche as a brand is being better managed by its brand owner than the MB brand is being managed by its brand owner.

Similar to the Lincoln LS, where Lincoln's brand owner attempted to enter the quasi-sport sedan premium/luxury market, to compete with Lexus, Acura, BMW and Mercedes. The LS didn't sell well, and didn't receive a refresh. Stretching the Lincoln brand DNA into a higher category didn't work. Similar to MB stretching their brand DNA into a lower category, it isn't working.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by chassis

Agree. So Porsche as a brand is being better managed by its brand owner than the MB brand is being managed by its brand owner.

Similar to the Lincoln LS, where Lincoln's brand owner attempted to enter the quasi-sport sedan premium/luxury market, to compete with Lexus, Acura, BMW and Mercedes. The LS didn't sell well, and didn't receive a refresh. Stretching the Lincoln brand DNA into a higher category didn't work. Similar to MB stretching their brand DNA into a lower category, it isn't working.

It does dilute the brand, but I'd be hard pressed to say that they aren't working from a sales perspective. The sales numbers seem pretty decent for vehicles like the CLA and GLB despite how poor of a luxury vehicle they are. Brand image and badge sells even on the worst of products it seems. Its the same reason that BMW sells its X1/2 and 2GC. BMW should not stretch into the market either (and have even made fun of it with past advertising ads which were against FWD vehicles) and yet they have and they make poor BMW's that go against what the brand has stood for, but it does sell.

[David70]

Originally Posted by chassis

Agree. So Porsche as a brand is being better managed by its brand owner than the MB brand is being managed by its brand owner.

Similar to the Lincoln LS, where Lincoln's brand owner attempted to enter the quasi-sport sedan premium/luxury market, to compete with Lexus, Acura, BMW and Mercedes. The LS didn't sell well, and didn't receive a refresh. Stretching the Lincoln brand DNA into a higher category didn't work. Similar to MB stretching their brand DNA into a lower category, it isn't working.

I disagree, Porsche's mgmt. only has the upper end as a possibility and they stay in the upper end. Not seeing this as great management. They also share platforms with Audi (I think engines also?) and this helps them immensely.

Time will tell if MB can compete in the upper and middle market. How is it not working?

[JJ 911SC]

Originally Posted by chassis

Yes, agree. I like the way Porsche has entered the SUV and EV segments, compared with the way MB has done it. The Macan and Cayenne in my opinion carry the Porsche DNA well.

Porsche Marquee came close to go under and disappear twice. Back in 1978, the 911 Super Carrera model save the company as well as the introduction of the Cayenne in North America back in 2003. SUV sales now represent 64% of all the Porsche sales.

I remember when the first Cayenne came out, the purist (carrots up their a$$) were outraged, “Oh, the humanity!”..

[WeryPert1]

Man, at those numbers I’m thinking the 718 and Panamera may not be long for this world. Hope not, as I’m a big fan of the Boxster & Cayman.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by chassis

Who wants to buy a car with a shrinking gas tank?

theoretically, a ice car gets worse gas mileage as it ages. worn suspension joints, worsening alignment, engine build up, less drivetrain efficiency through moving resistance. some of this carries over to an electric vehicle, but not all of it.
consider all the maintenance you save on with a battery vehicle over the years and its probably not worse than a gas vehicle. i have $530 into my electric car i've been driving for about three years now. that includes tires, a cabin filter, and a silica "filter" that absorbs moisture in the battery pack.

people often think of electric cars in the wrong context. these are great second vehicles that you primarily drive. price point determines how much style and amenities you get.

[JJ 911SC]

Originally Posted by WeryPert1

... I’m a big fan of the Boxster & Cayman.

The Boxer turn 25... https://www.porsche.com/canada/en/mo...xster_25y~open

[chassis]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

theoretically, a ice car gets worse gas mileage as it ages. worn suspension joints, worsening alignment, engine build up, less drivetrain efficiency through moving resistance. some of this carries over to an electric vehicle, but not all of it.
consider all the maintenance you save on with a battery vehicle over the years and its probably not worse than a gas vehicle. i have $530 into my electric car i've been driving for about three years now. that includes tires, a cabin filter, and a silica "filter" that absorbs moisture in the battery pack.

people often think of electric cars in the wrong context. these are great second vehicles that you primarily drive. price point determines how much style and amenities you get.

Do you mean carbureted cars from the 1970s?

Zero of my vehicles purchased in the past 40 years have lost fuel economy since new. The gas tank doesn’t shrink on gas powered vehicles.

The gas tank shrinks on EVs over time.

The gas tank shrinks on EVs as the ambient temperature drops. Ask the disappointed MB GLE owners about this.

I do not want to buy a vehicle with a shrinking gas tank.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by chassis

Do you mean carbureted cars from the 1970s?

Zero of my vehicles purchased in the past 40 years have lost fuel economy since new. The gas tank doesn’t shrink on gas powered vehicles.

The gas tank shrinks on EVs over time.

The gas tank shrinks on EVs as the ambient temperature drops. Ask the disappointed MB GLE owners about this.

I do not want to buy a vehicle with a shrinking gas tank.

So you have the magical ICE that can maintain perfect compression infinitely? There's other issues that will effect efficiency, but that's probably one of the more important one. I see people driving EVs all the time here in AK, so it must work well enough for some people. I have friends that drive them from Denver up to WP for skiing and return, without charging.

[W///]

Originally Posted by WeryPert1

Man, at those numbers I’m thinking the 718 and Panamera may not be long for this world. Hope not, as I’m a big fan of the Boxster & Cayman.

With Porsche, it might not be as likely, but I think in general, that segment will die off, or at the very minimum, ones with manual transmissions. While I hate it, the numbers just don't lie.

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

So you have the magical ICE that can maintain perfect compression infinitely? There's other issues that will effect efficiency, but that's probably one of the more important one. I see people driving EVs all the time here in AK, so it must work well enough for some people. I have friends that drive them from Denver up to WP for skiing and return, without charging.

The problem is that shrinking EV gas tank is on the more 'lower priced' EVs, cars that more people can reasonably afford new and used.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/nis...tery-1.5769998

Now, it is a 2013 Leaf, with no liquid cooling, but who knows when more of these non cooled electric cars start to fall onto 2nd hand owners after 6-7 years, long after the warranty expires. The person above lost 33% of their range in 7 years, I highly doubt my ICE car will lose that kinda mileage in 7 years.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by chassis

Do you mean carbureted cars from the 1970s?

Zero of my vehicles purchased in the past 40 years have lost fuel economy since new. The gas tank doesnÂ’t shrink on gas powered vehicles.

The gas tank shrinks on EVs over time.

The gas tank shrinks on EVs as the ambient temperature drops. Ask the disappointed MB GLE owners about this.

I do not want to buy a vehicle with a shrinking gas tank.

the shrinking range capacity of electric cars is probably not what you perceive. i'm not trying to convince you that an electric car is for you, but i do think you are (and you're definitely not alone) misinformed.

i drive an electric smart car. the range is about 60 miles. i leased my my first one for three years and put just under 30,000 miles on it. i loved it so much, i bought my second one used with 12k miles on it for $6,200, and i've had it about three years now- so i've been driving these specific cars for about six years and 60,000 miles now.

i use it to drive to and from work, and it barely makes it- i have about 5% capacity left from a round trip to work. i have to be conscious of tire pressure, heater and a/c use, and leaving my house with a full charge (if i go to the gym before work, i have to top it off). if its raining (not common in socal), i have to reduce my speed to compensate for the increased rolling resistance of the water being on the ground and using the windshield wipers.

its going to be interesting if this "shrinking gas tank" theory happens. i'll notice it. i have become hypersensitive to this car's quirks and i know at a quick glance of my battery charge capacity if i need to hypermile it based on where i intend to drive to. i avoid public charging stations because its usually three times what it costs me to charge at home ($0.32-48 per kwh as opposed to $0.13 per kwh at home).

reduced range when its cold (cold for socal is about 35*) is negligible, but using the heater really reduces the range since it isn't using the coolant for heat, its an electric coil with a fan blowing on it (like a blow dryer). so someone in an ev that is using the heater when its cold, raining [windshield wipers/rolling resistance], seat heaters, listening to the radio, and not maintaining their tire pressure is going to severely reduce their range. lets face it, most people are oblivious and ignorant.

this smart car is my fourth vehicle, but its my most driven vehicle. if i have to go somewhere before or after work, i simply take a gas vehicle. this is why i tell people they make great second cars. most people have one car to themselves. people stop me all the time to ask about my weird car and ask me what i do if i have to drive farther than 60 miles (range always comes up in questions). when i respond, "i just take my gas car" people are always surprised.
the fact of the matter is, from a balance sheet perspective, this car saves me a ton of money in fuel and maintenance costs. it saves me as much money as the battery costs to replace in about a year's time.
again, everyone's situation is different, but now you have perspective from someone with experience.

[chassis]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

the shrinking range capacity of electric cars is probably not what you perceive. i'm not trying to convince you that an electric car is for you, but i do think you are (and you're definitely not alone) misinformed.

i drive an electric smart car. the range is about 60 miles. i leased my my first one for three years and put just under 30,000 miles on it. i loved it so much, i bought my second one used with 12k miles on it for $6,200, and i've had it about three years now- so i've been driving these specific cars for about six years and 60,000 miles now.

i use it to drive to and from work, and it barely makes it- i have about 5% capacity left from a round trip to work. i have to be conscious of tire pressure, heater and a/c use, and leaving my house with a full charge (if i go to the gym before work, i have to top it off). if its raining (not common in socal), i have to reduce my speed to compensate for the increased rolling resistance of the water being on the ground and using the windshield wipers.

its going to be interesting if this "shrinking gas tank" theory happens. i'll notice it. i have become hypersensitive to this car's quirks and i know at a quick glance of my battery charge capacity if i need to hypermile it based on where i intend to drive to. i avoid public charging stations because its usually three times what it costs me to charge at home ($0.32-48 per kwh as opposed to $0.13 per kwh at home).

reduced range when its cold (cold for socal is about 35*) is negligible, but using the heater really reduces the range since it isn't using the coolant for heat, its an electric coil with a fan blowing on it (like a blow dryer). so someone in an ev that is using the heater when its cold, raining [windshield wipers/rolling resistance], seat heaters, listening to the radio, and not maintaining their tire pressure is going to severely reduce their range. lets face it, most people are oblivious and ignorant.

this smart car is my fourth vehicle, but its my most driven vehicle. if i have to go somewhere before or after work, i simply take a gas vehicle. this is why i tell people they make great second cars. most people have one car to themselves. people stop me all the time to ask about my weird car and ask me what i do if i have to drive farther than 60 miles (range always comes up in questions). when i respond, "i just take my gas car" people are always surprised.
the fact of the matter is, from a balance sheet perspective, this car saves me a ton of money in fuel and maintenance costs. it saves me as much money as the battery costs to replace in about a year's time.
again, everyone's situation is different, but now you have perspective from someone with experience.

roastbeef Thanks. You sir (or madame, we don't know each other), have described range anxiety better than anyone could describe it. You acknowledge the potential for shrinking gas tank syndrome to be a possibility.

Utility-for-utility, EVs fall far short of ICE vehicles. I am using the meaning of the word "utility" in the most expansive way possible. Think about the use of the word utility in an economics PhD course.

Shrinking gas tank syndrome, plus range anxiety, will not be solved for years to come. I have confidence that the shrinking gas tank can be overcome, but when it happens and and what financial cost to consumers, is hard to predict.

[W///]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

the shrinking range capacity of electric cars is probably not what you perceive. i'm not trying to convince you that an electric car is for you, but i do think you are (and you're definitely not alone) misinformed.

i drive an electric smart car. the range is about 60 miles. i leased my my first one for three years and put just under 30,000 miles on it. i loved it so much, i bought my second one used with 12k miles on it for $6,200, and i've had it about three years now- so i've been driving these specific cars for about six years and 60,000 miles now.

i use it to drive to and from work, and it barely makes it- i have about 5% capacity left from a round trip to work. i have to be conscious of tire pressure, heater and a/c use, and leaving my house with a full charge (if i go to the gym before work, i have to top it off). if its raining (not common in socal), i have to reduce my speed to compensate for the increased rolling resistance of the water being on the ground and using the windshield wipers.

its going to be interesting if this "shrinking gas tank" theory happens. i'll notice it. i have become hypersensitive to this car's quirks and i know at a quick glance of my battery charge capacity if i need to hypermile it based on where i intend to drive to. i avoid public charging stations because its usually three times what it costs me to charge at home ($0.32-48 per kwh as opposed to $0.13 per kwh at home).

reduced range when its cold (cold for socal is about 35*) is negligible, but using the heater really reduces the range since it isn't using the coolant for heat, its an electric coil with a fan blowing on it (like a blow dryer). so someone in an ev that is using the heater when its cold, raining [windshield wipers/rolling resistance], seat heaters, listening to the radio, and not maintaining their tire pressure is going to severely reduce their range. lets face it, most people are oblivious and ignorant.

this smart car is my fourth vehicle, but its my most driven vehicle. if i have to go somewhere before or after work, i simply take a gas vehicle. this is why i tell people they make great second cars. most people have one car to themselves. people stop me all the time to ask about my weird car and ask me what i do if i have to drive farther than 60 miles (range always comes up in questions). when i respond, "i just take my gas car" people are always surprised.
the fact of the matter is, from a balance sheet perspective, this car saves me a ton of money in fuel and maintenance costs. it saves me as much money as the battery costs to replace in about a year's time.
again, everyone's situation is different, but now you have perspective from someone with experience.

Getting to a destination with only 5% remaining would absolutely cause anxiety for me, plus I also wouldn't want to skip some comfort to make my commute IMO. Having said that, I totally agree with you that electric cars, especially used ones that have depreciated greatly, make an awesome car to add to the fleet.

I've been looking at 2018 BMW i3S, and they can already be had in the low 20's. This would make such an ideal car to add to my truck and M's, as my commute is only 8 miles each way, grocery store is like 3, restaurants are within 10-15 mins drive ect... I wouldn't even bother with a stage 2 charger at home because I'd want to drive the other cars too, while the i3 charges with a regular socket. If I ever get one (would be more interested when they're in the teens), I can also see it being the car I put the most miles in.

Crazy to think these Smart cars can be had for 6k though, that's ridiculously cheap!

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by W///

Getting to a destination with only 5% remaining would absolutely cause anxiety for me, plus I also wouldn't want to skip some comfort to make my commute IMO. Having said that, I totally agree with you that electric cars, especially used ones that have depreciated greatly, make an awesome car to add to the fleet.

I've been looking at 2018 BMW i3S, and they can already be had in the low 20's. This would make such an ideal car to add to my truck and M's, as my commute is only 8 miles each way, grocery store is like 3, restaurants are within 10-15 mins drive ect... I wouldn't even bother with a stage 2 charger at home because I'd want to drive the other cars too, while the i3 charges with a regular socket. If I ever get one (would be more interested when they're in the teens), I can also see it being the car I put the most miles in.

Crazy to think these Smart cars can be had for 6k though, that's ridiculously cheap!

I forgot that Smart Cars were even still sold in the US, or that they made an EV There are a lot of cheap used EV's out there, I mean there's Nissan Leafs selling for the prices of 20-year old Camry's! New I think the best deal I've seen is for a while Hyundai would advertise their Ioniq EV lease for as low as $109/month, with very little down, these dealers must hate having these cars on the lot.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by chassis

roastbeef Thanks. You sir (or madame, we don't know each other), have described range anxiety better than anyone could describe it. You acknowledge the potential for shrinking gas tank syndrome to be a possibility.

Utility-for-utility, EVs fall far short of ICE vehicles. I am using the meaning of the word "utility" in the most expansive way possible. Think about the use of the word utility in an economics PhD course.

Shrinking gas tank syndrome, plus range anxiety, will not be solved for years to come. I have confidence that the shrinking gas tank can be overcome, but when it happens and and what financial cost to consumers, is hard to predict.

of course the "shrinking gas tank" is a possibility. i wouldn't debate its not. possibility is rarely zero, and its a fact that batteries lose efficiency over time. i do think, from a balance sheet perspective, the money saved that could be used to buy a new battery by using an electric vehicle versus a gas vehicle has an eclipse of (i'm guessing) 6-7 years.

utility is subjective. my favorite thing about the smart car, is i don't wait for it to warm up. i get in and hammer it. the heater is instant on cold mornings. it is quick around town, and i can mob up driveways without scraping. i don't care where i park, because i don't care about door dings. i can have a busy day running errands around town with liberal throttle application (its relatively quick and fun) without worrying about range. i only have to consider range on my work days.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by W///

Getting to a destination with only 5% remaining would absolutely cause anxiety for me, plus I also wouldn't want to skip some comfort to make my commute IMO. Having said that, I totally agree with you that electric cars, especially used ones that have depreciated greatly, make an awesome car to add to the fleet.

I've been looking at 2018 BMW i3S, and they can already be had in the low 20's. This would make such an ideal car to add to my truck and M's, as my commute is only 8 miles each way, grocery store is like 3, restaurants are within 10-15 mins drive ect... I wouldn't even bother with a stage 2 charger at home because I'd want to drive the other cars too, while the i3 charges with a regular socket. If I ever get one (would be more interested when they're in the teens), I can also see it being the car I put the most miles in.

Crazy to think these Smart cars can be had for 6k though, that's ridiculously cheap!

range management becomes subconscious and i can gauge it at a glance. its not a big deal. my wife and i actually moved in 2018 and i'm about 6 miles farther from work, so about 12 miles more round trip. i was worried at first, but after a few weeks in various conditions, i don't even think about it. the number one, and by a huge margin, range reducing element is windy days. not a breeze, just strong winds. i take the m3 on those days if it needs to be driven, or i simply charge at work.

the thing i don't like about the i3 is most around here have the range extender. i want less moving parts and the gas generator on those rex i3's complicates them. other than that, i've heard great things. i'm just after ultra cheap transportation.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

I forgot that Smart Cars were even still sold in the US, or that they made an EV There are a lot of cheap used EV's out there, I mean there's Nissan Leafs selling for the prices of 20-year old Camry's! New I think the best deal I've seen is for a while Hyundai would advertise their Ioniq EV lease for as low as $109/month, with very little down, these dealers must hate having these cars on the lot.

smart only sold the electric versions in new york and california. my first lease was insane- $1k down, and $86 a month. here is the best part- california had an incentive of $2,500 for leasing an electric car. yes.
you don't get the federal tax credit for leases, but california gave out money for leases or buying. it was basically a free car to use for three years.

california would create a "fund" for these $2,500 incentives, and when the money got consumed, you had to wait for it to get funded again for the next year. i looked at getting another lease, but it was the next generation of smart cars, and they were more expensive and wouldn't swing the same deal. so i found a super cheap one for sale and bought it. every couple of years, my electric company offers a $400 incentive if i charge my car at home. i just have to upload a couple of documents and they send a check for $400 for doing what i'm going to do anyways. i've done this twice now.

[stein_325i]

[W///]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

range management becomes subconscious and i can gauge it at a glance. its not a big deal. my wife and i actually moved in 2018 and i'm about 6 miles farther from work, so about 12 miles more round trip. i was worried at first, but after a few weeks in various conditions, i don't even think about it. the number one, and by a huge margin, range reducing element is windy days. not a breeze, just strong winds. i take the m3 on those days if it needs to be driven, or i simply charge at work.

the thing i don't like about the i3 is most around here have the range extender. i want less moving parts and the gas generator on those rex i3's complicates them. other than that, i've heard great things. i'm just after ultra cheap transportation.

For sure, I'd only consider the BEV version only, those are the ones that actually seem to be going for cheaper as it seems people want the range extender?

And you bring a great point too. As I mentioned, my commute is less than 10 miles. Yesterday, it was very low 30's with high winds, and my Z4M which runs on 10W60 motor oil barely made it to operating temp by the time I got to work.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm more interested in electric cars that are affordable (and reliable) with range of 120-150 miles. No interest in them when they're $70k+

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by W///

As far as I'm concerned, I'm more interested in electric cars that are affordable (and reliable) with range of 120-150 miles. No interest in them when they're $70k+

^THIS very much

The e-Golf would have hit every last metric of that except it is no longer for sale, and it does not have liquid cooling so god only knows if it will suffer the same fate as earlier Nissan Leaf, it is also probably as exciting to drive as watching paint dry (former owner of a mk7 TSI)

There's always the Korean offerings in the Ioniq, Niro, etc.,

There are some new ones coming though... VW's id4, Mazda's MX30, Nissan Ariya, all are not exactly affordable but it is a start.