[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by lawdude

Shiv:

Another tuner believes you have tricked the ECU into thinking it is slightly under target so it will keep the throttle body open 100% all the time. He says that doesn't improve throttle response because the ECU modules the throttle movement fast enough to prevent it from being a restriction. He further believes that the method he believes you are implementing blows your diagnostic invisibility and factory boost control system out of the water.

Everyone here knows that I know practically nothing about tuning, but I'm interested in a response (from Shiv - not fanboys of any persuasion).

That other tuner also believed that I was incorporating TPS signal trickery (a la Sprint Booster) to improve throttle response. When in fact we only tap into TPS, not intercept/modify it. A quick inspection of the harness will prove this. Also, as with all previous versions of v3, we don't even start raising boost until past 55% TPS. This can also be verified by a datalog.

So these new improvements to throttle response/consistency aren't from making boost come in faster or earlier. We're just doing something that should have been done from the start. And this does not involve "forcing" the ECU to hold throttle open. The ECU is doing that on its own accord. We are just finally giving it information that it is happy with. And that is why it is controlling throttle as if the rest of the car was stock.

I nearly feel off my seat when I heard this other tuner say that this approach will sacrifice diagnostic invisibility. Simple fear tactic and nothing else. Those who want to investigate further can do so by purchasing an OBD2 logger and monitor "Absolute Throttle". With the new PROcede maps, you will still see evidence of throttle closure at times. But the severity and frequency of it will be reduced by 70-80% compared to other tunes that don't bother to (or cannot) address it.

Shiv

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by Dr_Dirt

So if I order one of these new proceed pnp's, will I get the new dynamic throttle control, described in this thread?

Good question.
Is this currently available with the new maps or do we need to purhcase something else?

[jpsimon]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

Good question.
Is this currently available with the new maps or do we need to purhcase something else?

I answered this question earlier: the new maps work with both Rev I and II

[per]

During heavy load i have actually seen Premature throttle closure during races being done on M5boardevents, and it did effect the boost with 2-3 psi from 4000-7000rpm, it felt like the motor stopped breathing, and i lost some power.
Will this solve this problem?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by marconi118

How does the ECU calculate the engine load and decide to close the throttle?

It looks at things like fuel trim, wastegate DC, manifold pressure, etc,. We are just beginning to understand it.

Is it possible to give bad info to the ECU to let him think the load is still under the max limit?

Not really. The factory's close loop boost control system will always raise boost (even with input signal manipulation) to the desired target. But no one says we can't influence how efficiently it gets there

Are you Shiv controlling the throttle directly with your additional box?

Nope. Never have and never will. The only throttle related input we have on the PROcede is Applied Throttle (pedal signal). And that is just a tap. In other words, we only read it. We don't modify it at all.

Cheers,
shiv

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by jpsimon

I answered this question earlier: the new maps work with both Rev I and II

I wasn't asking if the new maps were capable of being loaded on rev 1 and 2.
I was asking if this new feature was incorporated in the map, but by your statment above, it sounds as though it is incorporated in the maps.

[jpsimon]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

I wasn't asking if the new maps were capable of being loaded on rev 1 and 2.
I was asking if this new feature was incorporated in the map, but by your statment above, it sounds as though it is incorporated in the maps.

Woops, yes the new maps have this feature. This is what everyone has been saying feels so nice

[mwahlert]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

No. This problem exists with current reflash options as well. Those with flashes can verify this themselves using an inexpensive OBD logging tool.

like i said - "full control"....obviously those who are flash tuning currently do not have wide open access to the ecu or have not yet figured out how to correctly modify the correct parameters. you can not honestly think that a piggy back tune is superior to a full on flash tuning suite.

do you really think you would be working on a piggy back if a mature product like "hp tuners" was available for the n54?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

I wasn't asking if the new maps were capable of being loaded on rev 1 and 2.
I was asking if this new feature was incorporated in the map, but by your statment above, it sounds as though it is incorporated in the maps.

Yes, we have incorporated this feature into the new maps that we've demoed at the Taste Test and with a dozen or so beta beta testers. These maps have never been posted up on any site. They have been sent by email only. And they are still in their infancy. It's like starting over again from scratch. But we are pointed in the right direction for sure.

Shiv

[RiXst3r]

Originally Posted by Dr_Dirt

So if I order one of these new proceed pnp's, will I get the new dynamic throttle control, described in this thread?
Has anyone posted a dyno on 93 oct with a stock + with only this new proceed?

How does the new JB3 (latest rev) throttle control compare?

All the new revII PNP's will ship with the new maps used for this thread.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by mwahlert

like i said - "full control"....obviously those who are flash tuning currently do not have wide open access to the ecu or have not yet figured out how to correctly modify the correct parameters. you can not honestly think that a piggy back tune is superior to a full on flash tuning suite.

do you really think you would be working on a piggy back if a mature product like "hp tuners" was available for the n54?

Yes. We do a lot of flash tuning ourselves. That is still a good portion of our business. How much PROcede tuning have you done?

Shiv

[GAaaAR]

Shiv,


I don't understand any of this tuning stuff. All i know is I'm in the market for something that provides me a combination of performance, invisibility and preferably not put too much of a strain on my car. V3 is definitely something im considering.


Having said that, since this might not show on the dyno or on the 1/4 mile how will it improve performance? Does this now make it a better daily driver? A better track car? Or is this simply just something that makes the car drive better but providing smoother & better response but no performance increase.


Does this discovery now make this a safer tune? If so, how? Does it keep temps lower?

[kenneth]

I have a question Shiv! Seems that the newest maps will have this feature. Does that mean that it is a software only solution? I fail to see how the other tuner's hardware cannot do this in the future, if it is a software only solution.

Thanks!

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by GAaaAR

Shiv,


I don't understand any of this tuning stuff. All i know is I'm in the market for something that provides me a combination of performance, invisibility and preferably not put too much of a strain on my car. V3 is definitely something I'm considering.


Having said that, since this might not show on the dyno or on the 1/4 mile how will it improve performance? Does this now make it a better daily driver? A better track car? Or is this simply just something that makes the car drive better but providing smoother & better response but no performance increase.

You will see the effects of better torque targeting on the dyno and on the drag strip. You'll see more consistency and a reduction in humps and dips caused by big throttle closures. But it's really at partial throttle and during transitions from one throttle position to another (how you drive 100% of the time) where this will be obvious. You will think that we managed to make boost come in 500% faster than before. And that we employed some Sprint Booster-like TPS trickery. When all we did was greatly reduce the time it takes for the factory ECU to "zero in" on its load target.

Does this discovery now make this a safer tune? If so, how? Does it keep temps lower?

It's safer because we greatly reduce the tendency of tuned cars to overshoot the torque target. Which then results in a negative correction followed by a throttle oscillation event. All that does is blur the torque response of the motor and force the turbos to spin harder than they need to in order to achieve the boost target (which generates heat).

It's one thing to close the throttle by 50% on a stock car that runs 7-8psi. The factory turbos have plenty of extra headroom at that boost level. But at 15psi where the turbos are operating closer to their max flow limit, a big throttle closure will force them to work harder than they want to. In fact, we were able to bring peak wastegate DC down by at least 5% by this feature alone. That's a huge improvement in stress reduction and expected turbo life.

Shiv

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by kenneth

I have a question Shiv! Seems that the newest maps will have this feature. Does that mean that it is a software only solution? I fail to see how the other tuner's hardware cannot do this in the future, if it is a software only solution.

Thanks!

Software was just a part of the solution. The only way we are able to do this is by having complete control of the wastegate solenoids. We drive it directly with the PROcede. The factory ECU drives dummy solenoids that we mounted on the circuit board. We just don't tap into the signal wire and extend the ground like other option(s). That approach, while simpler and more cost effective, will only allow for additive duty cycle adjustments. This new approach involves applying both additive and subtractive corrections. As well as our own fully programmable closed loop PID system.

Shiv

[eunosracr]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

You will see the effects of better torque targeting on the dyno and on the drag strip. You'll see more consistency and a reduction in humps and dips caused by big throttle closures. But it's really at partial throttle and during transitions from one throttle position to another (how you drive 100% of the time) where this will be obvious. You will think that we managed to make boost come in 500% faster than before. And that we employed some Sprint Booster-like TPS trickery. When all we did was greatly reduce the time it takes for the factory ECU to "zero in" on its load target.



It's safer because we greatly reduce the tendency of tuned cars to overshoot the torque target. Which then results in a negative correction followed by a throttle oscillation event. All that does is blur the torque response of the motor and forced the turbos to spin harder than they need to in order to achieve the boost target (which generates heat).

It's one thing closing the throttle by 50% on a stock car that runs 7-8psi. The factory turbos have plenty of extra headroom at that boost level. But at 15psi were the turbos are operating closer to their max flow limit, a big throttle closure will force them to work harder than they want to. In fact, we were able to bring peak wastegate DC down by at least 5% by this feature alone. That's a huge improvement in stress reduction and expected turbo life.

Shiv

Shiv,

Any issues with using these new maps in conjunctions with a Sprint Booster?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by eunosracr

Shiv,

Any issues with using these new maps in conjunctions with a Sprint Booster?

The Sprint Booster is somewhat messy "band aid" approach that tried to masked the problem that existed with previous tunes. Now that this problem has been addressed, I wouldn't install a Sprint Booster. I don't see it doing any good.

Shiv

[eunosracr]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The Sprint Booster is somewhat messy "band aid" approach that tried to masked the problem that existed with previous tunes. Now that this problem has been addressed, I wouldn't install a Sprint Booster. I don't see it doing any good.

Shiv

Do we have to remove it if we already have one? Or will it be ok to keep it on?

[OpenFlash]

Definitely remove it

[eunosracr]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Definitely remove it

Gotcha. Thanks.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by per

During heavy load i have actually seen Premature throttle closure during races being done on M5boardevents, and it did effect the boost with 2-3 psi from 4000-7000rpm, it felt like the motor stopped breathing, and i lost some power.
Will this solve this problem?

If what you felt was caused by throttle closure, yes this update should make that history.

Shiv

[OpenFlash]

Update: Our competition is claiming that we are actively keeping the throttle from closing. As I think most can conclude by themselves, that is nonsense. The factory ECU still has COMPLETE control over absolute throttle. It can (and will) close it in the event of an overboost, knock, or any other nasty occurrence. The only reason our tune is keeping the throttle body open for more of the time is because we are doing a better job of load targeting. Simple as that.