[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by Alpine Wait

Just like we don't have/need a gas pump every 15-20ft down a residential street, we don't need that density of EV chargers.

In 1890, there were also "facts" that the transition from horses to gasoline was going to be a challenge. Didn't stop the innovation or ultimate change. And we're already well upon our way for the transition away from gas.

Do you actually think drivers are going to assess whether their car needs a charge or can wait until another time and then not park next to an unused charger so it is available for the next driver?! And they’re going to go through this thought process every time they park?! Do you actually believe that?! We don’t need a high density of gas stations, because the pump is in use for about five minutes for each vehicle it is used to fuel.

[iamvanja]

Originally Posted by Fantastic 5

We can barely get enough infrastructure for EV’s, and now they want to introduce hydrogen. It’s not going to take. Also, people are liking not having to fill up and recharge at home. Hydrogen brings us back to the old paradigm of having to get fuel outside from a third party.

People are also not buying EVs because they cannot charge at home or want to take long distance trips without having to charge for extended times while traveling.
Fuel or electricity, it is coming from a “third party”.

[JK479]

Originally Posted by Fantastic 5

We can barely get enough infrastructure for EV’s, and now they want to introduce hydrogen. It’s not going to take. Also, people are liking not having to fill up and recharge at home. Hydrogen brings us back to the old paradigm of having to get fuel outside from a third party.

I disagree- this is a long time coming and will be a big next option.

I think it could surpass the EV in some parts of the world where it’s hard to charge cars.

Let EV succeed in places where it works. Let ICE morph with E Fuel. And this hydrogen- it will make sense too for the right customer base.

[Alpine Wait]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Do you actually think drivers are going to assess whether their car needs a charge or can wait until another time and then not park next to an unused charger so it available for the next driver?! And they’re going to go through this thought process every time they park?! Do you actually believe that?! We don’t need a high density of gas stations, because the pump is in use for about five minutes for each vehicle it is used to fuel.

I don't have to "believe" anything. I've owned 3 EVs over the course of nearly 5 years. I know what it's like to live with one, and I live in one of the biggest cities in the country. I've managed through that without difficulty, and talked with fellow auto enthusiasts that have made the move to EV without home charging capabilities.

If you want to make your own difficulties, go ahead. But unless you've personally lived with an EV 24/7/365, I have to take your concerns with more than just a grain of salt.

I wouldn't attempt to tell you the difficulties of owning a horse, without having personal experiences to articulate to you as such.

[Bimmerfun82]

This was helpful. So the first gen of hydrogen approach was a battery pack and hydrogen fuel, and it failed. What’s different about this time around?

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...gen-cars-fcev/

[M3ZCPNYC]

Wasn’t someone killed for creating this engine back in the day!?!?

[deemo319]

BMW explored this back in 2005 or 2006. They tested an E66 hydrogen car and ran it for 1,000,000 miles or something like that.

And at its conclusion mothballed the project to wait for the times to catch up.


https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/a...bmw-hydrogen-7

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

This was helpful. So the first gen of hydrogen approach was a battery pack and hydrogen fuel, and it failed. What’s different about this time around?

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...gen-cars-fcev/

I’m not 100% sure this was the first generation, but BMW ran a years long program starting in the 1970s with the E12 5er, and then a series of hydrogen powered 7 Series cars, but they all focused on and ran on liquid hydrogen and were internal combustion engines.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

I’m not 100% this was the first generation, but BMW ran a years long program starting in the 1970s with the E12 5er, and then a series of hydrogen powered 7 Series cars, but they all focused on and ran on liquid hydrogen and were internal combustion engines.

The white paper released indicates a few things

- first production car with this FCEV hydrogen architecture, so it is unique to the brand
- goal of building hydrogen supply stations by creating demand
- filling the void in the market where BEV doesn’t work

So it’s not new, and it’s not what they did decades ago. Why should it succeed this time around where Toyota and Honda failed?

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/a...79EN_US/621765

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by Alpine Wait

I don't have to "believe" anything. I've owned 3 EVs over the course of nearly 5 years. I know what it's like to live with one, and I live in one of the biggest cities in the country. I've managed through that without difficulty, and talked with fellow auto enthusiasts that have made the move to EV without home charging capabilities.

If you want to make your own difficulties, go ahead. But unless you've personally lived with an EV 24/7/365, I have to take your concerns with more than just a grain of salt.

I wouldn't attempt to tell you the difficulties of owning a horse, without having personal experiences to articulate to you as such.

Apparently you didn’t read or decided to ignore the primary basis of my point. I’m a Texan, too, who now lives in Chicago and has for the last thirteen years. Texas doesn’t have any cities comparable to New York, Boston, Philadelphia, or Chicago. Every Texas city is suburban. I guess you have lived with your EVs somewhere there in Texas where you have no other option than street parking, right? And you’ve had to figure out a way on a daily basis to keep your cars charged. Until you’ve lived in a truly urban city I’ll take your platitudes with a tiny grain of salt.

[orkinos]

Originally Posted by Neusser

VW and Audi bet the farm on EV over here in Germany and people are going nuts as of late because VAG is now weighing massive layoffs and closing multiple manufacturing plants due to low demand (because the cars are junk).

It is hard to overstate just how huge this is, given how many people it affects and just how tied into the government and economy these horrid companies are.

Volvo also just backed out of making its fleet full electric by 2035.

The whole thing is imploding because EVs are unsafe, poorly made, and were never meant to replace the ICEs—they are a means to get the plebes to "own nothing" in line with the Davos/EU 2030 Agenda.

Go woke, go broke.

It feels like people are building EVs in their backyard. A tablet, 4 wheels, an electric motor. You are good to go! Tickle people's FOMO, give some incentives, and they jump on the car without even test driving (Tesla)

[BSfmAZ]

ICE, hydrogen, Ev, nuclear fusion, water pressure powered, etc just do not try to force the transition like the EU and other US globalists are pushing. All EV by 2030!!? Allow the "free market" decide how we travel. Imagine a 80 mph accident with a fully loaded hydrogen car and an a EV, sparks would fly and then boom.... I'm personally waiting for Scotty to Beam Me Up!

[orkinos]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Do you actually think drivers are going to assess whether their car needs a charge or can wait until another time and then not park next to an unused charger so it is available for the next driver?! And they’re going to go through this thought process every time they park?! Do you actually believe that?! We don’t need a high density of gas stations, because the pump is in use for about five minutes for each vehicle it is used to fuel.

In NYC, people are getting into arguments to find parking space close to where they live or work, and it is a hustle when it's time for switching sides for alternate parking. I can't imagine that anyone would care to leave a charging spot empty if they wanted to park their ICE vehicle.

[Alpine Wait]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Apparently you didn’t read or decided to ignore the primary basis of my point. I’m a Texan, too, who now lives in Chicago and has for the last thirteen years. Texas doesn’t have any cities comparable to New York, Boston, Philadelphia, or Chicago. Every Texas city is suburban. I guess you have lived with your EVs somewhere there in Texas where you have no other option than street parking, right? And you’ve had to figure out a way on a daily basis to keep your cars charged. Until you’ve lived in a truly urban city I’ll take your platitudes with a tiny grain of salt.

Offer still stands... hit me up when you actually own an EV for a few years. Yes, people do it in Chicago w/only street parking

[T-Rexx]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Not really.

Yes really, very VERY really a sustainable and viable zero emissions solution.
Electric cars was a fairytale from the start when we needed to burn more carbon to generate the electrify than the ICE cars themselves. Then there was the environmental impact of all the mining required to source minerals for the batteries, THEN their is the battery disposal / pollution problem for all the dead batteries.
EV cars were never ever able to be sustained. Wasn’t even a good idea from the start.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by Alpine Wait

Offer still stands... hit me up when you actually own an EV for a few years. Yes, people do it in Chicago w/only street parking

You can rest assured that will never happen. I like how you ignore the questions and just give the responses you like. You must be a politician. I’m sure someone, somewhere in Chicago who has only street parking owns a Tesla and can charge it at work or something, but I can assure you they’re not charging it parked on the street in front of their apartment. Just how is it you know people in Chicago with only street parking own EVs? Your statement, “Yes, people do it in Chicago w/only street parking”, sounds a lot like something you just pulled out of your a$$.

The guy who recently moved into my condo building who owned a Tesla, and whose parking space in our garage is right next to mine, owned it about four months after he moved in. He got rid of it and got a BMW X1. I saw him in the garage about three months ago and asked him about the change. He said keeping it charged was a royal pain and the winter weather degraded the performance of the battery so much it wasn’t worth keeping. Of course, I asked him how he liked his X1. He said he loves it and has no plans to go back to an EV.

[12nine]

Was mentioned which vehicle it will be?

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by T-Rexx

Yes really, very VERY really a sustainable and viable zero emissions solution.
Electric cars was a fairytale from the start when we needed to burn more carbon to generate the electrify than the ICE cars themselves. Then there was the environmental impact of all the mining required to source minerals for the batteries, THEN their is the battery disposal / pollution problem for all the dead batteries.
EV cars were never ever able to be sustained. Wasn’t even a good idea from the start.

You have no idea of what you're talking about.
Mining in general is destructive. Have you seen diamond and gold mining in third world countries? How about oil drilling in Africa? It's not pretty, but I don't imagine you have a problem with that. You know why? It's because you don't really give a shit about lmining. You're just pissed off about the transitions to EV's and you're using lithium mining as a weak ass excuse.


Btw. One of if not the largest lithium deposit in the world is located in N. Nevada.


Now back to H2. At this moment large scale hydrogen production is done via NatGas or splitting water. Both of which require a bunch of energy. The other issue with hydrogen is that when in liquid form it continually gets lost to the atmosphere. This creates a problem because there's no nationwide hydrogen distribution system. Yet we have a nationwide electrical distribution system.

How much in tax do you want to pay to build out a H2 distribution system?

[T-Rexx]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

You have no idea of what you're talking about.
Mining in general is destructive. Have you seen diamond and gold mining in third world countries? How about oil drilling in Africa? It's not pretty, but I don't imagine you have a problem with that. You know why? It's because you don't really give a shit about lmining. You're just pissed off about the transitions to EV's and you're using lithium mining as a weak ass excuse.


Btw. One of if not the largest lithium deposit in the world is located in N. Nevada.


Now back to H2. At this moment large scale hydrogen production is done via NatGas or splitting water. Both of which require a bunch of energy. The other issue with hydrogen is that when in liquid form it continually gets lost to the atmosphere. This creates a problem because there's no nationwide hydrogen distribution system. Yet we have a nationwide electrical distribution system.

How much in tax do you want to pay to build out a H2 distribution system?

First of all, I just made a counter point, but you response was rude, and offensive using inappropriate language.
Second, you claim you can read my mind in why (if) I don’t like Ev’s. That’s just makes you look foolish.
Third, mining for mineral for a battery that lasts only 10 years IS NOT A SUSTAINABLE Solution. No biased or hidden agenda, just a logical conclusion.
Lastly, I don’t like to debate with aggressive, ill mannered people.
Bye

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by Alpine Wait

Just like we don't have/need a gas pump every 15-20ft down a residential street, we don't need that density of EV chargers.

In 1890, there were also "facts" that the transition from horses to gasoline was going to be a challenge. Didn't stop the innovation or ultimate change. And we're already well upon our way for the transition away from gas.

Why do people keep brining up the horse to gas transition. EV's existed before ICE's. It's not relevant anyway because resources were basically unlimited back then.

I don't like the idea of destroying the environment and poisoning people with toxic metals in 3rd world countries so the elitists can have their EV's. But the selfish elitists don't care.

I like the idea of fuel cell technology and what it can do. It may take many years, but I think it's a better idea than EV's. Maybe EV's can get there someday too, but right now it's a net negative on the environment and people too.

[David70]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Please share them. All the ones that are suitable to be installed every 15 - 20 feet up and down residential streets in big cities across the country. This discussion is turning into something that should be in the EV thread, but I’ll make one more comment. I initially missed a major limitation of the point you made that cities already have electricity to neighborhood street lights. The difference in the amount of electric draw is staggering. The infrastructure doesn’t have the capacity.

“Jeff Schrade, National Coalition for Open Roads -

Facts are Hard Things

- After one trucking company tried to electrify just 30 trucks at a terminal in Joliet, Illinois, local officials shut those plans down, saying they would draw more electricity than is needed to power the entire city.

- A California company tried to electrify 12 forklifts. Not trucks, but forklifts. Local power utilities told them that's not possible.

- Electrification of the entire U.S. vehicle fleet would consume 40.3% of the current electricity demand.

- Current electrical power build-out could expand U.S. transmission capacity by about 15% in the next 10 years.”

You say facts are hard things, where did you come up with this?

Next time someone wants to build a factory or large housing development and we say we don't have enough power will make news. Never happens.

No reason you need chargers every 15-20 feet on all residential streets in a city. Most need to charge at most every 5-7 days. You seem to be going on the idea that everyone needs to charge everyday. Maybe the high mileage city dweller that comes home every day? Who is this?

I'm interested in seeing the information on the rest of your claims. 30 large trucks use the same amount of electricity as a city? Interested in hearing the math on this one.

12 forklifts and the city says it's not possible? Why? There are plenty of manufacturers making electric forklifts, somebody is buying them. They want to double the size of their facility and there is plenty of power.

Electrification of the entire fleet can't happen today. Great, as it's impossible to happen today. If 100% of cars built starting today are electric it will take decades to get to 100%. This is a reason EV's won't work?

Power generation ---- Note how little the overall generation has changed over the last 20 years. Also note the part that comes from coal, the never ending "your EV is powered by coal", comes from people that either don't understand or don't care about the facts. Now coal is about 16% of the total, not close to having a coal powered EV.

As this is a post about hydrogen cars, how do you think hydrogen is produced? We don't have enough power today to power a nation that is 100% EV's so we should produce hydrogen from electricity to eliminate the problem?



https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/...-and-sales.php

[Bimmerfun82]

Here’s an interesting take

Headline: “BMW, Toyota take a risky gamble on a failing product”

https://www.thestreet.com/automotive...amble-hydrogen