[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Why not? If there's a market and it stops buyers going elsewhere, why not?

It is getting out of control but I get it. The company is in it to make money, but they are also doing it at the expense of who can actually afford the Porsche sportscar models now.

Porsche used to make some somewhat afford 911 variants back in 70s through early 2000s. Then the Boxster/Cayman came out to fill that void, but now even those are pushing the limit. Porsche seems to want to put itself just a notch below the supercar brands now. 911 sales are starting to slide. Lots of Cayman/Boxsters got snatched up because of Porsche's ridiculous decision to go EV only with that model. AND NOW, Porsche has admitted that was a mistake and is trying to reverse engineer that model, which isn't even out yet (!) to handle an ICE drivertain. I'm hopeful that there will be more standard and cheaper 911s that will come out of this...especially with what VW is going through at the moment and getting ready to lay off 26,000 workers this week. That will certainly trickle down to Porsche to up their sales across all models. You just keep making a handful of $200-400K specialty 911s to keep things going.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

The real answer is all these different trim levels give all these rich guys an excuse to make themselves feel more special.

The Carrera T for example is a "lightweight" version that is marginally lighter than a regular one, but it gives buyers the option to pay a premium to say how they can feel the barely existent difference and how it's "so much more direct and focused". Or you can buy a GTS and talk about how "it's like a race car for the street because it has monoblock wheels".

They sell all these different trims so that the mostly older buyers of these cars can sit around at Porsches and Pancakes and talk at length about how they're different and toot their own horns.

I've been there. My father had a 997.2 S and a 993, both were great cars, but the PCA crowd even then was getting overrun with big bank accounts losers. The sad part was a lot of the older PCA crowd was just enthusiasts. Porsche didn't really start to attract these owners until the very end of the 997 run.

^Excellent post! My thoughts exactly about the majority in this crowd. The Porsche crowd has definitely changed, that is for sure. It is largely a group of ultra wealthy dudes showing off their flashy "rare" cars, talking about their "journey" of buying the car (makes me want to punch babies), how their overweight 911 weighs 40lbs less because of some select de-contenting Porsche did to upcharge and make the car special. There is a subset of us that modify and work on our cars, drive them hard, and don't give a rat's ass about rarity or the like. These guys are unrelatable.

[x622]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

^Excellent post! My thoughts exactly about the majority in this crowd. The Porsche crowd has definitely changed, that is for sure. It is largely a group of ultra wealthy dudes showing off their flashy "rare" cars, talking about their "journey" of buying the car (makes me want to punch babies), how their overweight 911 weighs 40lbs less because of some select de-contenting Porsche did to upcharge and make the car special. There is a subset of us that modify and work on our cars, drive them hard, and don't give a rat's ass about rarity or the like. These guys are unrelatable.

Wow that word gave me flashbacks to standing around the first time I went to a C&C and met all the pretentious douchebags associated with my TTS and listening to them hem and haw about my "spec". Oh what a "Journey" I had choosing what my build was. I loved getting charged that extra few hundred bucks for the porsche crest on the arm rest and seats. What an experience.


Don't forget the craftsmanship guys. The CRAFTSMANSHIP.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by x622

Wow that word gave me flashbacks to standing around the first time I went to a C&C and met all the pretentious douchebags associated with my TTS and listening to them hem and haw about my "spec". Oh what a "Journey" I had choosing what my build was. I loved getting charged that extra few hundred bucks for the porsche crest on the arm rest and seats. What an experience.


Don't forget the craftsmanship guys. The CRAFTSMANSHIP.

Lol, so true.

They're the same as the "1 of 57 red on tan automatic convertible Corvettes built on a Wednesday" guys, just with more money.

Prior to buying my first Corvette I was looking at 996 Turbos (because in 2012 you could get a 20-30k mile 996 turbo manual for like 30-35k, which was the same price range as a low mile narrow body LS3 Corvette). They all said the same thing "buy the car, not the color". Found one but you hate the color? Too bad, buy it and ignore your preferences. Silver on brown with yellow seat belts not for you? Too bad, buy the car not the color. I ended up buying a Corvette instead dma I stead of making a like 40k profit had I kept it until now I ended up going through a series of Corvettes and have only like a $10k profit.

When my dad bought his current 996 with a blown motor untried so.hard.to convince him to just stuff an LS motor in it. He was overall on board until he talked to a few of his "Porsche Owner" friends who derided him for the idea and talked him out of it because somehow a 3.4L sub 300hp flat 6 was better than having 400+ HP that would need basically no upkeep. We ended up swapping in a super low mile 3.4L, which ran great, but that car would have been better and cheaper to build with an LS.

[Donatello.]

For that money? I'd be looking at something else

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

......talked to a few of his "Porsche Owner" friends who derided him for the idea and talked him out of it because somehow a 3.4L sub 300hp flat 6 was better than having 400+ HP that would need basically no upkeep.

I've been basically told I'm a poser because I painted the black faded out brake calipers on my Cayman yellow. On two occasions, they have smugly asked me, damn well knowing the answer, if I had the ceramic brakes (which only use yellow calipers)? When I say no, on both occasions I was told "Ya know, ONLY Porsches with PCCBs get yellow calipers". I just slowly nod with an unamused face and dead-Russian eyes while thinking "I've succeeded".

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I've been basically told I'm a poser because I painted the black faded out brake calipers on my Cayman yellow. On two occasions, they have smugly asked me, damn well knowing the answer, if I had the ceramic brakes (which only use yellow calipers)? When I say no, on both occasions I was told "Ya know, ONLY Porsches with PCCBs get yellow calipers". I just slowly nod with an unamused face and dead-Russian eyes while thinking "I've succeeded".

Who knew yellow was sacred to these snobs smh

[Alfisti]

I dunno what crowds you guys hang with but I meet every so often with my whattsapp chat guys (Greater Toronto 997 group) and tbh most are very decent blokes. Every so often we go to a broader meet and people seem ok, the odd poser but not too bad.

Lotsa guys in my chat are wife/2 kids/stretch to buy a sportscar types.

[dgoldenz]

I’ve literally never seen someone talk down to someone else about their car at any of these meets/C&C type events. Don’t know where you guys are hanging out. That only happens on the internet, like in this very thread.

I see people see the same things about Ferrari owners and yet all of them I’ve ever met or talked to are die-hard car guys that just made some money and moved up. You don’t have to be “rich” to finance a car when you’re making decent money. I’m nowhere close to rich, I just spend my money on cars instead of other things.

The people who don’t want to be associated with these “snob” Porsche and Ferrari crowds are either broke and jealous, don’t realize the great networking opportunities they’re missing out on, or both.

[BlkGS]

Porsche Club of America events in South Florida.

Some of them are cool. Some of them are dbags. The cool ones typically do some of their own work. The dbags ones pay someone to change their air filters.

To be fair, we never had anyone come up and insult one of our cars. They just condemned non-Porsche parts, and especially putting in a domestic motor.

The yellow calipers thing is like putting an M3 basdge on a 328i to them. To be fair, red would have been off limits too to them. And probably green. Porsche gets weird about caliper colors meaning stuff.

My biggest struggle right now is contrasting my preference for a manual 997.2 with the absurdly easy power of a 991.2, and if you get a 4 you get mega traction too. It's super expensive to get extra power out of an NA 911. It's just a tune to get 500-600hp out of a base 991.2, or you spend a few grand for GTS turbos and make 600+ HP.

[x622]

Originally Posted by dgoldenz

I’ve literally never seen someone talk down to someone else about their car at any of these meets/C&C type events. Don’t know where you guys are hanging out. That only happens on the internet, like in this very thread.

I see people see the same things about Ferrari owners and yet all of them I’ve ever met or talked to are die-hard car guys that just made some money and moved up. You don’t have to be “rich” to finance a car when you’re making decent money. I’m nowhere close to rich, I just spend my money on cars instead of other things.

The people who don’t want to be associated with these “snob” Porsche and Ferrari crowds are either broke and jealous, don’t realize the great networking opportunities they’re missing out on, or both.

I both agree and disagree. My experience is primarily based in Scottsdale, where we have a unique and ever shifting demographic. One key factor you may not be aware of is our "snowbird season", which significantly changes the crowd at Cars & Coffee (C&C) events. Many people actually prefer other gatherings, such as those at Toy Barns or "The Vault", where the real networking happens. C&C, especially in South Scottsdale, tends to attract a more "nouveau riche" e-commerce dropshipping crowd. This includes people who may have just made their first million—or in some cases, the person in the Urus who lives in an apartment.

If you ever come out to Scottsdale, feel free to DM me and we can roll in one of the Mclarens or something and you can see for yourself.

[Davil]

I haven’t driven a GT spec 911. That’s probably where it’s at if you like to track your road car.

I did drive a base 992 for 6 hours over some great roads. It’s a well made car, cheapish interior, sounds like a vacuum cleaner, pretty reasonable handling and steering. It wasn’t really in the same league as my old M2CS for entertainment and fun. Not even on the same planet compared to my Astons for the experience and joy in driving.

I’m sure that’s why they have all the different specs. Maybe the more expensive ones are much better.

The base one made me wonder if I can ever believe anything a car reviewer says again.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

My biggest struggle right now is contrasting my preference for a manual 997.2 with the absurdly easy power of a 991.2, and if you get a 4 you get mega traction too. It's super expensive to get extra power out of an NA 911. It's just a tune to get 500-600hp out of a base 991.2, or you spend a few grand for GTS turbos and make 600+ HP.

I dunno man, I have a .2 997 and jesus H I cannot stretch it's legs at all. If I am on a back road and hustling, I select (PDK) 2nd gear on entry and give it an absolute boot full on exit, select 3rd and I am at 80 to 90MPH in absolutely no time which is illegal in these parts. I legit feel I could spend $40K on improving my car before I even considered more power, 385HP is plenty.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by Davil

I haven’t driven a GT spec 911. That’s probably where it’s at if you like to track your road car.

I did drive a base 992 for 6 hours over some great roads. It’s a well made car, cheapish interior, sounds like a vacuum cleaner, pretty reasonable handling and steering. It wasn’t really in the same league as my old M2CS for entertainment and fun. Not even on the same planet compared to my Astons for the experience and joy in driving.

I’m sure that’s why they have all the different specs. Maybe the more expensive ones are much better.

The base one made me wonder if I can ever believe anything a car reviewer says again.

We hear this complaint a lot about the 992. Which is why they will sell you a T so it adds a bit more road feel and NVH. I have no idea what it is but I have zero desire for the 992, maybe the really high belt line?

[gohawks23]

Originally Posted by x622

That's exactly how I'd describe it too! It's numb and vague, even the 3rs. To say it's not brutally fast is obviously a bold faced lie, but it's not "fun" to drive. It's not rewarding to beat the absolute shit out of, because you have to just to feel ANYTHING. The 997.1 and .2 were the last of it's kind, I think. I want to add one of them to my collection but not sure what.

I will say that the the GT4RS somehow feels better than the the GT3. Wish I could get my hands on one with that crazy engine build and shorter gear ratio setup. Bet it's pretty sweet.

All these car manufacturers make me feel sad.
I can't be a modern Porsche enthusiast anymore since I don't enjoy the smell of my own farts.
I can't be a modern BMW enthusiast because everything I've cared about the brand is dead with the exception of the s58.
I can't be a modern Honda enthusiast because they make dumb shit like the CTR that costs as much as a M2 basically, and they're too scared to make another s2000 or NSX that's worth a shit.
I can't be a modern Chevy enthusiast because the Corvette gets worse every generation now, and the ZL1 1LE is dead.
I can't be a modern Ferrari enthusiast because they put v6's in their top end models now (F80) and they make stuff like the 296GTB is a which is a cope-mobile.

Sad times to be a car guy I guess. If I want to go really really fast in a straight line I guess it's great, but if I want to turn and enjoy how the car feels and communicates I'm SOL. Buy all the old cars you can I guess....

Get a manual MK8 GTI...one of the funnest cars I've ever owned! You can actually wind it up a bit in 2nd and 3rd. Plenty of torque available at 1800 and up. Handles like a go cart.

Ps, had a 992 C2S and thing was so wicked fast that couldn't really 'drive it' in the real world...and at 150K+ I wasn't gonna track it! Lol

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

I dunno man, I have a .2 997 and jesus H I cannot stretch it's legs at all. If I am on a back road and hustling, I select (PDK) 2nd gear on entry and give it an absolute boot full on exit, select 3rd and I am at 80 to 90MPH in absolutely no time which is illegal in these parts. I legit feel I could spend $40K on improving my car before I even considered more power, 385HP is plenty.

I can get that. That's the hard part, they're quick cars, and realistically, you're not gonna use most of it day to day. My use would be mainly around town, I might one day take it up to NC to hit some Twisties.

I also found a nice 996 turbo manual local to me this morning. Unfortunately the prices on those put them in range with much newer, and similar HP cars.

[Alfisti]

There's also a lot of rear grip, 385 HP, NA so not a ton or torque, 295's on the rear and engine over the rear wheels. So in dry conditions you're never really feathering the throttle. Down to the right gear, brake, turn, keep revs at about 3000rpm then just lay on the gas hard and the rear will bite so you're at 100mph in a 15 year old C2S in no fucking time. What you do with 500, 600 HP etc I have no idea.

[Bumpinjeep]

Okay just to reiterate.
Porsche makes minor tweaks to the current GT3 for essentially an LCI and creates an overpriced light-weight package but raises the starting price by a whopping $65,000!!!!!
And people are in line to pay for this thing?!?
If you think about it, it's really a win/win for Porsche dealers AND current GT3 owners as their vehicle values just skyrocketed.
If I were in the market, I would just pass this up altogether. It's such a horrible cash grab it's almost insulting. It would literally be like the 24 G87 cost $68K but the LCI 25 cost $100K with the only difference being that the carbon fiber seats now cost an additional $10K on top of the $10K package. It's insane but also like genius. Mind, blown.

[dgoldenz]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

Okay just to reiterate.
Porsche makes minor tweaks to the current GT3 for essentially an LCI and creates an overpriced light-weight package but raises the starting price by a whopping $65,000!!!!!
And people are in line to pay for this thing?!?
If you think about it, it's really a win/win for Porsche dealers AND current GT3 owners as their vehicle values just skyrocketed.
If I were in the market, I would just pass this up altogether. It's such a horrible cash grab it's almost insulting. It would literally be like the 24 G87 cost $68K but the LCI 25 cost $100K with the only difference being that the carbon fiber seats now cost an additional $10K on top of the $10K package. It's insane but also like genius. Mind, blown.

Is it really a cash grab if the market prices have been there all along and the dealers were making the money instead of the shareholders? A 3 year old 992 GT3 is still $30-80k over sticker. A 7 year old 991.2 with 20k miles on it and no warranty is still around MSRP

I don’t think market values will change, they’ll just be closer to MSRP and depreciate normally with the massively increased price. People aren’t going to be running out to spend $325k on a GT3.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

Okay just to reiterate.
Porsche makes minor tweaks to the current GT3 for essentially an LCI and creates an overpriced light-weight package but raises the starting price by a whopping $65,000!!!!!
And people are in line to pay for this thing?!?
If you think about it, it's really a win/win for Porsche dealers AND current GT3 owners as their vehicle values just skyrocketed.
If I were in the market, I would just pass this up altogether. It's such a horrible cash grab it's almost insulting. It would literally be like the 24 G87 cost $68K but the LCI 25 cost $100K with the only difference being that the carbon fiber seats now cost an additional $10K on top of the $10K package. It's insane but also like genius. Mind, blown.

there really isn't another car like it if you want manual + NA + rwd supercar that revs to 9k.

mclaren, ferrari, lambo are all paddles now. most are turbo/hybrids.

but yes the price increase is hefty. i still think people will pay it though. because GT cars hardly depreciate and it is a sort of 'safe' investment compared to exotics. And alot of the customers are so rich they dont care.

[Alfisti]

The NA, RWD and stick factor is huge. Is there anything else? Like at ANY price, can you get a NA 450HP+ engine, with a stick and RWD in anything let alone a) a car that weighs less than 3500lbs and b) one that revs past 8 grand?

I don't think you can?

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

The NA, RWD and stick factor is huge. Is there anything else? Like at ANY price, can you get a NA 450HP+ engine, with a stick and RWD in anything let alone a) a car that weighs less than 3500lbs and b) one that revs past 8 grand?

I don't think you can?

Even if you could, I'm betting the livability is pretty low with those numbers, it's either that or exotic engineering to bring the weight down with things like CF frame and such. The GT3 is very light for what it is and the GT3 and GT3 Touring are relatively amazing cars that most people could daily, with the GT3 RS being another level and a "race car that you might be able to drive to an event", but not really realistic for any daily operation.

But IMO you stick that much power in a frame at that weight and something is going to compromise, either the chassis handling due to not being able to deal with the power to weight, the regular features you expect a car to have for driving like power steering, climate, etc., or it'll cost an excessive amount due to the extensive use of exotic engineering and materials to save weight. Nothing is free.

Anyway, the GT3 is not the car to get stick IMO, it needs to bang off the shifts faster for what it is. Regular 911 or GTS is. And really, both of those cars are making power numbers at the engine at 400hp and more...due to the car putting down the rated amount.