[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Just quick and dirty math...

Camry LE with heated seats is $29,310. Cheapest Tesla Model 3 with tax incentives is $34,990, $5,680 more. At $3.29/gal. and using the EPA average of 51 MPG for the Camry, that's 88,000 miles before the Model 3 hits the payback point. At 15,000 miles a year, that's 6 years before any savings are realized. That's a hard sell for a parent with two kids renting a house where they are not going to drop $3,500 to get a L2 EVSE installed so they can have the magic of home refueling. Add in the home charger and the miles to payback are 140,000 and 9 years breakeven. Add the PITA to charge an EV using the public network and people dont see the advantage of adopting. That's why Americans are not buying EV in quantities to flip the market to EV.

I paid $425 to install my $425 Tesla charger....Don't know where people come up with the made up numbers like $3500, but everything you read on the internet or see on youtube isn't true....

Gas is always around $5.00+ per gallon around here and many people have solar these days....Only use charging stations on occasional road trip, hardly a PITA and usually it is done charging by the time you get done buying a coffee or some fast food...

They may not be for everyone, but they certainly fit the bill for many people.

I can vouch for mine that has 50,000 flawless maintenance free miles on her

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Just quick and dirty math...

Camry LE with heated seats is $29,310. Cheapest Tesla Model 3 with tax incentives is $34,990, $5,680 more. At $3.29/gal. and using the EPA average of 51 MPG for the Camry, that's 88,000 miles before the Model 3 hits the payback point. At 15,000 miles a year, that's 6 years before any savings are realized. That's a hard sell for a parent with two kids renting a house where they are not going to drop $3,500 to get a L2 EVSE installed so they can have the magic of home refueling. Add in the home charger and the miles to payback are 140,000 and 9 years breakeven. Add the PITA to charge an EV using the public network and people dont see the advantage of adopting. That's why Americans are not buying EV in quantities to flip the market to EV.

you also forget resale value of a tesla model 3 at high mileage vs a camry... people actively search for used camrys and there is a strong market for long term... used model 3 market is 0 and you get annihilated on trade because they change them every 5 second and get pricing adjustments

[Alfisti]

Camry and Model 3 are two different segments, the 3 is the size of a Corolla, the Camry is far larger.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Sedoy

Your math definitely checks out, but I think people interested in the Model 3 aren’t really buying it for the gas savings. The Model 3 is a RWD platform with very impressive handling, great acceleration (even the cheapest RWD model does a 1/4-mile in 13.2 seconds) and has a set of smart features unique to Tesla like autopilot, sentry mode, over-the-air updates, dog mode, and etc. There’s a reason people keep buying overpriced iPhones, even though top-tier Android phones can do similar things for much less.

People buy iPhones because they get stuck in an ecosystem. A lot of them bought into the "this is the boogie one" that likely applies to Teslas too, but then people keep buying iPhones because that's what they're used to, and at some level they think they're better because they paid more for their phone.

Mark my words, they will figure out a way to lease people iPhones for a year and offer it as a "always have the new phone" and (stupid) people will eat that shart up. You will own nothing and you will like it.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Socal_R8

lol...it sure does trigger people around here


maybe it is because I'm lucky enough, or financially irresponsible enough to have multiple vehicles. but the best daily I've ever owned does 0-60 in 3.1 seconds and is currently charging in my garage right now for penies on the dollar compared to the $5 gal gas around here...never waste time at a gas station or oil change shop either.....

I lmao when I read the ignorance on here when it comes to the devil aka EV's

Your fuel costs are because of your government and nothing more. Gas is 2.86 a gallon here, 3.24 for premium. Prices have been a little higher than normal lately too.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Comparing a Model 3 to a Corolla makes the math for the Tesla even worse.

TBH I am not sure what a fair comparison is. And I mean unbiased and fair. A Corolla is about the same size but lacks the power of the Model 3, but the Model 3 does not have the luxury of a 3 series or C class which are both a touch bigger than the Tesla anyways.

Trying to think of a powerful small sedan with a basic interior. Hmmmmm.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

TBH I am not sure what a fair comparison is. And I mean unbiased and fair. A Corolla is about the same size but lacks the power of the Model 3, but the Model 3 does not have the luxury of a 3 series or C class which are both a touch bigger than the Tesla anyways.

Trying to think of a powerful small sedan with a basic interior. Hmmmmm.

You would need to define luxury in this case. If by luxury you just mean physical stuff, like trims, buttons, panels etc then yes. If by luxury you mean the quality of the materials that are there and actual features (heated seats, cooled, cameras etc) then I think the Model 3 is on par with a 3 series or C class easily. Especially the new Model 3.

[Alfisti]

Maybe the Acura's based on the Civic platform?

[dfox]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

You are over-thinking this. I simply am comparing Tesla's most popular selling sedan to Toyota's most popular sedan.

And the point is why? Why would you compare those two vehicles?

You may not like the interior (I don't either), but the reality is the Tesla is a direct competitor to a 3 series, which comes in at a drastic price difference from a Corolla. Your numbers change drastically when you actually compare the cars with their competitors.

You want to compare an EV to a corolla, compare a nissan leaf.

You want a pretty direct comparison, compare the i4 gran coupe to a 430i gran coupe. 52800 vs 49650.

Also, price of gas vs price of electricity varies drastically by location. Here, I have some of the most expensive gas in the country, and some of the cheapest electricity (that's 95% renewable to boot).



Everyone's calculations are different and you really can't generalize across the entire country.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'll state again... comparing Toyota's most popular-selling sedan to Tesla's most popular-selling sedan. They are in the same EPA class size and just 3 cubic feet apart from one another in passenger/luggage volume. I didn't bring the Corolla into the discussion, Alfisti did. You can think the Model 3 is a 3-Series competitor because when it first came out it was in the price range of a 3-Series, but it didn't offer the refinement of the 3-series. It's still near the price of a 3-series before tax incentives, but I still don't think it has the refinement of a 3-series.

I used $3.29 for gas. Avg. today is $3.12 (which makes the case better for the Camry). It appears electrons on the public networks is around $0.45 to $0.55 kW, which makes fueling an EV on the public system about equal in cost to gasoline on a per-mile cost basis.

Compare the BMW's I listed above. No arguing about whether or not they're competitors. Although the performance is going to be different with the i4 outperforming. Make sure you're actually looking at MPG and mi/kwh figures.

Gas here is 4.60ish per gallon for regular, but premium is probably a better comparison given the power output of EVs. I pay 10.263 cents per kwh.

[dfox]

It's a comparison that actually is apples to apples, IE it actually means something.

430i - 31 mpg
i4 3.6 mi/kwh

At my price, 10K miles/year, EV saves about $1,200 in fuel alone, assuming we ignore regular maintenance items such as oil changes. Fuel savings alone pay for themselves in less than 3 years.
430i - 1483.87 in gas
i4 - 285 in electricity

Start to consider the additional costs of oil changes, trans/diff fluid changes, and just the general maintenance that an ICE requires that an EV just doesn't, and the numbers just keep adding up. And what we're not quantifying in here is also time, something that I take seriously. My time is worth money. The time to do an oil change, or take to a shop. Time to stand around at a gas station a few times a week...


Look, I drive both. my commuter is an EV. My fun car and road trip car are both ICE. They both have their strong points, but ya'll ev haters are just missing the mark with your hate. No, they don't work for everyone, but I'd bet that they'd work just fine for the vast majority of people on this forum as a commuter.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

That's for you at $4.60/gal. and charging at home. My discussion was using a much lower price for fuel for a the average customer in the US auto market who will only use the public network to charge his EV. So your point is not apples to apples as a counter to what I am discussing. In my rough calculation I didn't even include the cost of electrons for the Tesla on the Tesla network, which I think is around $0.22 per kW.

That's exactly the point I'm making. You cannot make a blanket statement with averages across the entire country to say that EV doesn't make sense. EV's work for some people, in some locations. They don't work for some people, in other locations. It's all relative. Speaking in absolutes across the entire country is pointless. Hence why we currently allow states a say in the matter. These issues are localized, not generalized across the country.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

You would need to define luxury in this case. If by luxury you just mean physical stuff, like trims, buttons, panels etc then yes. If by luxury you mean the quality of the materials that are there and actual features (heated seats, cooled, cameras etc) then I think the Model 3 is on par with a 3 series or C class easily. Especially the new Model 3.

It is not lol.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

It is not lol.

How would you know? Don’t you explode if you get to close to an EV??

[Alfisti]

Some size as a Camry?? Really? I've been in both and the Camry feels MUCH larger, like 5 series size not 3 series.

I'm also not sold the 3 goes up against a 3 series or C class, the refinement isn't there. This is tricky, if you go down a notch the ICE lack power.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Some size as a Camry?? Really? I've been in both and the Camry feels MUCH larger, like 5 series size not 3 series.

I'm also not sold the 3 goes up against a 3 series or C class, the refinement isn't there. This is tricky, if you go down a notch the ICE lack power.

You all keep talking about more luxury and more refined but no one has been able to define that.

It’s like saying a modern minimalist designed house is less luxurious than a super guady home decked out with gold toilets and ornate hardware etc.

I don’t follow BMWs much anymore, but I’m pretty sure the quality of materials in a base 3 series is no better than what’s in a model 3. Hell the materials in my Cayenne were no better than a 3 series or model 3 except maybe real leather… even that was meh.

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by dfox

That's exactly the point I'm making. You cannot make a blanket statement with averages across the entire country to say that EV doesn't make sense. EV's work for some people, in some locations. They don't work for some people, in other locations. It's all relative. Speaking in absolutes across the entire country is pointless. Hence why we currently allow states a say in the matter. These issues are localized, not generalized across the country.

It is no use trying to talk sense to people who have no clue becuse they have no real world experience with EV's....or what it is like to spend $80 every time you fill up on gas like the millions of drivers do daily ... Those people just don't get it and never will

Comparing Tesla's to Camry's is also silly...My Model 3 is warmed up with a touch of a button on my phone and is nice a comfy by the time you get to your car on a cold winter night or cooled down for you on a hot summer day..and no, remote start is not the same thing...it will also come pick me up if I'm feeling lazy.....No Camry, nor pretty much every ICE V, does any thing close to any of those things and is slow AF.... not too mention it doesnt need oil changes or brake pads or starters or water pumps or alternators or any of all the 100's of parts that can go bad on an ICE vehicle...wake up every morning with a full tank without ever having to visit a gas station for pennies on the dollar....

Yeah, I can see why people who don't have EV's hate EV's

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

It's no use to try and explain to EV'ers who home charge that not everyone owns a home with a garage or driveway that has easy access to the home's electrical infrastructure. It's hard to explain that millions of houses have only on-street parking and can't charge at home. It's tough to explain to EV'ers that millions of people live in apartments and can't charge at home.

It's hard because everyone here already knows that. I have not seen a single pro EV person here claim everyone should buy an EV including people who live in an apartment or people who need to save as much money as possible and drive the most economical vehicle etc. Not everyone can afford a BMW, not everyone wants the impracticality of a 2-seater sports car, not everyone has a need for an F350, not everyone wants to drive a manual... doesn't make those vehicles inherently bad.

No one here is making the argument that everyone should have an EV for everything. You refuse to understand that though.

[mjr24]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

It's no use to try and explain to EV'ers who home charge that not everyone owns a home with a garage or driveway that has easy access to the home's electrical infrastructure. It's hard to explain that millions of houses have only on-street parking and can't charge at home. It's tough to explain to EV'ers that millions of people live in apartments and can't charge at home.

It’s literally just about pointless to have an EV unless you can home charge. I am smack dab in the middle of 2 major cities (40 minutes from each) and the closest fast chargers are still 25 miles each way.

I had to basically make due and drive to one of these locations every 2 days or so before my home charger was put in a month after I got my i7. It was a major PIA.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Socal_R8

l. not too mention it doesnt need oil changes or brake pads or starters or water pumps or alternators or any of all the 100's of parts that can go bad on an ICE vehicle

EVs have a ton of maintenance too. They eat tires like 3-4x faster than a typical ICE car. They tear up suspension components. They still have HVAC systems to go bad. They still have cooling systems to go bad. Some of them that aren't fisher price cars still have differentials that need upkeep. They still have brake pads and rotors that need replaced. They still have ball joints and bushings that go bad.

If your state has taxes your fuel to the point that has is uneconomical, that's once thing, but reality is there are more places where it is not more economical than places where it is.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

You all keep talking about more luxury and more refined but no one has been able to define that.

It’s like saying a modern minimalist designed house is less luxurious than a super guady home decked out with gold toilets and ornate hardware etc.

I don’t follow BMWs much anymore, but I’m pretty sure the quality of materials in a base 3 series is no better than what’s in a model 3. Hell the materials in my Cayenne were no better than a 3 series or model 3 except maybe real leather… even that was meh.

There's definitely a difference, the model 3 feels chintzy, cheap thin interior materials and a brutal ride. It feels more like a domestic with tacked on luxury than built from scratch luxury. Think..... modern Buick.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

There's definitely a difference, the model 3 feels chintzy, cheap thin interior materials and a brutal ride. It feels more like a domestic with tacked on luxury than built from scratch luxury. Think..... modern Buick.

Hey now, that's unfair. Modern domestics feel WAY nicer than Teslas. Teslas feel like early 00s Korean cars. At best.

All this talk of EVs, I will admit, if Ford made the Lightning just a legitimate F150 powertrain, and I could get it as a 2025 F,150 inside and out that just happened to have the EV powertrain, I'd buy one. But as it stands, it looks 2 generations old, the stupid vertical screen is way worse than the regular truck interior, and so I can't justify it.

For their part, Ford is listening... To a bunch of dufuses that think it isn't working because it's not EV enough. They're making a ground up EV truck like all the others that aren't selling. So we have that failure to look forward to..